How to Best Charge Battery for Longest Life

[tomjasz]

People here have been saying that you might as well not nurse your battery because batteries are improving in capacity and price so quickly anyway, it's not worth it.

I eyeballed LunaCycle prices from 2.5 years ago via the way back machine, and the prices don't seem that different. I'll do the math when I get to a PC.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150709005511/http://lunacycle.com:80/

Exactly, we constantly read about breakthrough products and new chemistry. But realistically, if we look back at current releases, it may be a decade before we see changes. I'd rather ride than wait. The only people disliking the Satiator are those competing, or those that have been cut off form selling.

 

[tomjasz]

This is probably a really obvious question, but I'm going to ask it anyways... It's okay to charge your battery with the stock charger until the light on the charger goes green correct? I'm not asking in terms of battery life, longevity, etc. I'm just asking because I'm a bit paranoid about these batteries and pull the charge off after a couple of hours or so, while the light is still red...

Sure, but I suggest it should be charged where you can monitor.

 

[Andy_in_CA]

unless your feel REALLY confidant in your soldering skills (like not burning down your house) I would no

I've also been looking at the Luna Blue charger and they carry a 3-pin XLR adapter but not a 4-pin one. I emailed them and they recommended cutting the end off of the stock charger and soldering it on. If anyone has found an adapter that works with the Luna Blue charger, post a link here please.

this sounds like the best idea of bad ideas..... messing with something that can burn your house\garage down unless your a pro or really confidant in your skills I would not recommend this. Its pretty shocking that a company would actually suggest this... negating any warranty etc..... BAD IDEA!

 

[tomjasz]

unless your feel REALLY confidant in your soldering skills (like not burning down your house) I would no


this sounds like the best idea of bad ideas..... messing with something that can burn your house\garage down unless your a pro or really confidant in your skills I would not recommend this. Its pretty shocking that a company would actually suggest this... negating any warranty etc..... BAD IDEA!

Good land! This is such a simple job. You could even use crimp connections and cover with shrink tubing. I do it all the time. Soldering is the most basic of skills for eBike repair and not EVEN dangerous. Simply confirm with puns are negative(BLACK) wire, and which are positive(red) wire.


https://electricscooterparts.com/batterychargerconnectors.html

 

[Asher]

Exactly, we constantly read about breakthrough products and new chemistry. But realistically, if we look back at current releases, it may be a decade before we see changes. I'd rather ride than wait. The only people disliking the Satiator are those competing, or those that have been cut off form selling.

Yeah people think the rate of improvement mirrors processors, ~40% annually when batteries only improve 5-8% annually. Which means you really don't want to blow through a $1000 battery in two years if you can help it.

As I said to someone on Twitter, the killer app (or priority) for ebikes now is not future technology. It's safe riding and storage. That is much more important to raising ridership than future incremental battery improvements. Imagine protected bike lanes and streets with some parking spaces replaced by bike lockers (10-12 bikes per parking space)

 

[Dunbar]

The cost per watt hour is definitely coming down. When I bought my original Cross Current in the summer of 2015 a 1kWh battery was pretty much unheard unless you spent $5k+ on a bike (like the Stromer ST2.) However, even if the current trends keep up I don’t anticipate buying a standalone 1kWh replacement battery is going to be $300-400 in a few years. Juiced gives you a great deal if you upgrade at the time purchase but it’s still not exactly cheap to buy a replacement battery. That’s why I think that opting for the bigger battery option when you purchase the bike and charging it to 70-80% can make a lot of sense.

 

[Asher]

The cost per watt hour is definitely coming down. When I bought my original Cross Current in the summer of 2015 a 1kWh battery was pretty much unheard unless you spent $5k+ on a bike (like the Stromer ST2.) However, even if the current trends keep up I don’t anticipate buying a standalone 1kWh replacement battery is going to be $300-400 in a few years. Juiced gives you a great deal if you upgrade at the time purchase but it’s still not exactly cheap to buy a replacement battery. That’s why I think that opting for the bigger battery option when you purchase the bike and charging it to 70-80% can make a lot of sense.

Unheard of among manufactured ebikes, but the batteries already existed, among LunaCycle et al. Sort of reminds me of phone screens - they got bigger over several years, but not because the technology was not available initially, as the Dell Streak released in 2010 shows. Screens got bigger because there was strong demand for the biggest phones available, plus video consumption was increasing.

So a doubling in battery capacity on ready made ebikes is plausible, but it's not a reflection of the underlying technology improving that much in the same time frame - just competition resulting in manufacturers providing what customers actually want, and consumers using ebikes for more applications; so people want more higher range ebikes at reasonable prices - which a Juiced CCS with 19aH at $2k definitely hits.


52V Samsung, July 2015 vs now, from Lunacycle
12.5aH, $435 vs $499
20ah, $570 vs $779

 

[Dunbar]

While there haven’t been any breakthroughs in the underlying lithium-ion technology 18650 batteries used to manufacture an e-bike battery pack have been on a pretty steady price decline for like the last decade. I also think their capacities have been steadily improving as well. I remember buying 18650 cells in 2009-2011 for my bike lights and it’s pretty remarkable how much cheaper they are today.

 

[tomjasz]

The cost per watt hour is definitely coming down. When I bought my original Cross Current in the summer of 2015 a 1kWh battery was pretty much unheard unless you spent $5k+ on a bike (like the Stromer ST2.) However, even if the current trends keep up I don’t anticipate buying a standalone 1kWh replacement battery is going to be $300-400 in a few years. Juiced gives you a great deal if you upgrade at the time purchase but it’s still not exactly cheap to buy a replacement battery. That’s why I think that opting for the bigger battery option when you purchase the bike and charging it to 70-80% can make a lot of sense.

You are comparing artificially inflated prices of OEM sellers. Wholeslae prices have been largely static.

 

[tomjasz]

Unheard of among manufactured ebikes, but the batteries already existed, among LunaCycle et al. Sort of reminds me of phone screens - they got bigger over several years, but not because the technology was not available initially, as the Dell Streak released in 2010 shows. Screens got bigger because there was strong demand for the biggest phones available, plus video consumption was increasing.

So a doubling in battery capacity on ready made ebikes is plausible, but it's not a reflection of the underlying technology improving that much in the same time frame - just competition resulting in manufacturers providing what customers actually want, and consumers using ebikes for more applications; so people want more higher range ebikes at reasonable prices - which a Juiced CCS with 19aH at $2k definitely hits.


52V Samsung, July 2015 vs now, from Lunacycle
12.5aH, $435 vs $499
20ah, $570 vs $779

Luna claims to have lowered prices, in fact they sold batteries from makers in China that were already lowest, we were just fearful of buying from them. I have photos of Luna “best bms available” from bms suppliers s3ll8ng for $12. Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

People here have been saying that you might as well not nurse your battery because batteries are improving in capacity and price so quickly anyway, it's not worth it.

I eyeballed LunaCycle prices from 2.5 years ago via the way back machine, and the prices don't seem that different. I'll do the math when I get to a PC.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150709005511/http://lunacycle.com:80/

Price may be about the same, but quality has improved from manufacturers who use high grade components. Not just in ebikes. Ham radio gear is seeing the same improvement. If you go back 5 years and read the kind of mileage people were getting from batteries with the same rated capacity, it was not what it is today. That's exactly why I didn't buy one then.

 

[Solom01]

It will be interesting to see what happens to pricing with new uses such as electric cars pushing demand. Some of the materials used are in short supply and some such as cobalt come from countries that are not very stable. I saw where Apple is trying to purchase a manufacturer of lithium batteries to make sure that they have a supply and Tesla's inability to produce enough batteries for the Tesla 3 is becoming evident. Who knows what will happen but if car manufacturers and companies such as Apple and Samsung are fighting for supplies I have a hunch that eBike makers are going to be at the bottom of the list.

 

[Asher]

Why are ebike batteries still so expensive when batteries cost $200 / kwh.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/11/batteries-keep-getting-cheaper/

You could say it's the housing, but the bigger batteries are hardly cheaper per watt than the smaller ones.

 

[Chris Hammond]

I'm surprised nobody even mentioned the advent of the new 21700 Lithium cells. This is the format Tesla is moving forward with, and the Luna Apex is actually using. These cells may have 40% more capacity even though only slightly larger in size. As these cells become more commonplace, the old 18650 cells are likely going to need to become cheaper in order to compete for market share. Unfortunately that is still probably at least 4-5 years away. Here's an article discussing this. https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

 

[Asher]

I'm surprised nobody even mentioned the advent of the new 21700 Lithium cells. This is the format Tesla is moving forward with, and the Luna Apex is actually using. These cells may have 40% more capacity even though only slightly larger in size. As these cells become more commonplace, the old 18650 cells are likely going to need to become cheaper in order to compete for market share. Unfortunately that is still probably at least 4-5 years away. Here's an article discussing this. https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

How is it an improvement when Luna already sells batteries of similar watt hours with the older battery format?

Also, could later Juiced batteries use these and be backwards compatible with existing bikes?

 

[Dunbar]

You are comparing artificially inflated prices of OEM sellers. Wholeslae prices have been largely static.

Pretty sure 18650 pricing has been on a steady decline for the last 10-15 years (Asher’s link backs this up). The 18650 cells are probably only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of manufacturing the battery pack. You’ve got to add the BMS and some sort of enclosure to house it all. In Juiced Bikes case they custom built their larger battery packs so there’s significant R&D costs involved. The custom extruded aluminum in the big packs probably adds cost vs a basic plastic.

 

[Asher]

Pretty sure 18650 pricing has been on a steady decline for the last 10-15 years (Asher’s link backs this up). The 18650 cells are probably only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of manufacturing the battery pack. You’ve got to add the BMS and some sort of enclosure to house it all. In Juiced Bikes case they custom built their larger battery packs so there’s significant R&D costs involved. The custom extruded aluminum in the big packs probably adds cost vs a basic plastic.

The decline wasn't that much, but if you're right about the cells only costing a fraction of the total, that's probably why. The whole ebike industry is crying out for consolidation to hit lower prices, IMO, so you're not spending all that money on r and d for a company that only sells a couple thousand ebikes.

The ebike industry is weird in that the smaller players have the most competitive prices (eg Juiced, Luna), and the biggest don't (Pedego). That smacks of stagnation on the vendor side.

My sister just got a reasonably priced ebike from small brand Surface 604, which I hadn't heard of before. Almost as well priced as Juiced, given that she bought it at a retail store. The salesman told her it was their bestselling bike (Rook/Colt). $1900, 500w motor, 48v, 10ah, SRAM transmission.

 

[tomjasz]

Pretty sure 18650 pricing has been on a steady decline for the last 10-15 years (Asher’s link backs this up). The 18650 cells are probably only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of manufacturing the battery pack. You’ve got to add the BMS and some sort of enclosure to house it all. In Juiced Bikes case they custom built their larger battery packs so there’s significant R&D costs involved. The custom extruded aluminum in the big packs probably adds cost vs a basic plastic.

Having purchased dozens of BMS and PCB units there's no great mystery, and little or no R&D done by companies like those discussed. Bosch, Yamaha, and their ilk, yes, but bikes as end products, 99% of the stuff is off the shelf. Readily accessible prices have come down but I paid pretty much the same price for my last 300 cells as I paid for the state of the art 4 years ago. This is the one instance where I agree with those claiming to have pushed prices lower. Battery pack prices have been artificially inflated and continue to be. Anyone today can buy a premium cell for $4. Buying quantities has always beed cheaper. 4 years ago 2900Mah was king, today only 3500. No big glaring change.

Chase down the largest case makers and you'll find there is no special sauce....

 

[Dunbar]

Here’s the graphic from Asher’s linked article showing that lithium ion battery prices have dropped 75% from 2010 to 2016. That maps onto my own experience buying 18650 cells for bike lights over the last 8-9 years. Have you seen the Juiced Bikes videos on the design and manufacture of their extended range battery packs? It looks to me like they spent quite a bit of time and money getting these things designed and built to their specifications. So I don’t think you can compare them to a run-of-the-mill Luna dolphin or triangle pack.

 

[tomjasz]

Sorry, I don't like the Kool Aid... here's the complete piece. https://data.bloomberglp.com/bnef/sites/14/2017/07/BNEF-Lithium-ion-battery-costs-and-market.pdf The reality is the eBike market hasn't made any big strides. Again, the customer packs aren't any earth shaking or steps forward in technology. All just Kool Aid... We've enjoyed larger capacities but nt significant technological improvements. The data is skewed.