Hello! and I think I want to build my very first ebike(compact cargo)!

[freckles]

Got my first ebike experience riding the NYC Citi ebikes around Central Park- it was a blast and now I must have one!

I'm short (5'2"), 28.5" inseam about 115 lbs. Looking to build a compact cargo bike for city (car free/lite) living/hauling/commuting, the more "diy" it looks- the better since I want to actually use it/lock it with less fear of it being stolen. I live in Los Angles with near perfect weather for bike riding but no infrastructure for bike riding/parking... so prefer a Class 3 with throttle for crossing intersections/quick acceleration on unavoidable stroads but mostly ride on residential roads wherever possible to stay alive. LA has varied terrain- flats/hills, smooth/potholed.

Wants- compact length (live in tiny apartment) with step thru frame, Class 3 (or close) with throttle and WALK mode (have few steps to go up), hydraulic disc brakes preferred, sturdy rear/front racks, integrated lights, either a front hub or mid drive (still contemplating along with torque/cadence) with either 20" or 26" wheels, open to IGH or derailleur.

Want to build a reliable, easy to repair, novice diy friendly build for mostly pedaling w/assist vs throttle/scooter riding.

If hub build- front hub for easier access, will use front rack to balance weight so most of the weight isn't on the rear wheel and hopefully the chunky look is off putting.

If mid drive- leaning towards Tonsheng TSDZ2B for the torque sensor but read its better NOT to connect throttle+ rather use it as a temp sensor since it's prone to overheating? Power to lights are very low- not ideal for powering bright front/rear lights? OSF vs stock- If I flash, it voids warranty or pay $175 more to buy already flashed but shorter warranty (worth it?) or wait 1 year and then learn to flash? Q factor- need to change crank arm.

Bafang mid drive is cadence only, harder on the chain/derailleur b/c its more powerful?

Ideal frame- Cero One, Cycle truck, donky bike, Omnium(mini) with 20" front tire/26" rear tire or Yuba style 26" front/20" rear or Tern Quick Haul/Rei Coop Cargo/Benno demi for the easy step thru, upright seating posture, low center of gravity/stable for carrying stuff.

Donor frame- Tern Short Haul (1K) hydraulic brakes, rear rack that allows vertical standing, step thru etc. Still need to test ride it...
Raleigh Lorry (700) mechanical brakes, front rack, lesser components, cycle truck style, no rear rack
Terry road bike w/mixte frame into cycle truck- if I can find one, buy clydesdale cargo fork, upgrade rim to disc brakes?
Vintage xs steel touring w/step thru frame into cycle truck- if I can find one, buy clydesdale cargo fork, upgrade rim to disc brakes?

Currently ride with 150mm cranks on 20" wheels, previous bike had 170mm on 29" wheels- much prefer the 150mm.

Think the best/straightforward but most $$$ diy is the Tern Short Haul since it has hauling capability/hydraulic brakes etc and just need to build attachment to hold battery. I will remove decals and throw paint/stickers to uglify.

Suggestions??? Words of wisdom???

 

[ElevenAD]

Imho the Tongsheng middrive is going to be harder on your drive system vs the Bafang because it has no shift detector! With a Bafang mid drive you have the option to install a shift detector. Also if your building a Cargo bike go for a middrive or at least a geared rear hub drive. I would avoid direct drive front hub motor bikes if your looking to haul cargo over NYC bridges and streets because they generally dont have the torque of a geared hub or middrive.

 

[indianajo]

I would avoid direct drive front hub motor bikes if your looking to haul cargo over NYC bridges and streets because they generally dont have the torque of a geared hub or middrive.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! I pulled 330 lb up 15% grades with a ebikeling geared hub on front 26" tire. Each grade was about 100'. Then when the gears in the ebikeling motor wore out (4500 miles) I used a Mac12t front hub which was even better. The clutch in that wore out about 3000 miles. Unfortunately nobody in the US, or even aiiexpress sells these anymore. The idea of men carrying 60 lb of groceries up steep hills at 6 mph scares state legislatures (and the vendors of mid drives) to death. With a geared hub, my 8 speed chains last ~5000 miles. the sprockets so far are fine at 12000 miles.
You see in the avatar my battery is mounted out over the front wheel, also. My inseam is 28". I prefer 26" wheels so my teeth don't rattle or I bite my tongue when I ride over a pothole. When I am in line at a stoplight, or when rain covers the pavement, I can't see them.
My yuba bodaboda is aluminum, about 72 lb without bags motor or battery. 5 1/2 years so far, ~12000 miles, frame wheels spokes crank bars are fine. Unfortunately this model is no longer for sale. The replacment yuba bike has a steel frame 24" wheels and a mid-drive. If I were buying now I would buy a blix packa.

 

[PedalUma]

@freckles, Welcome. Yes, you do not want a hub-drive. A TSDZ2-B is the way to go and no, these do not need a gear shift sensor, nor a heat sensor. Just back off on the pedals when shifting. Wait for a Boda Boda from Yuba to show up on Craigslist that is a value. Here is an overpriced example in your area. Pay half this or less. Properly adjusted mechanical discs are preferable to hydraulics. Mechanical discs are easy to adjust. Inexpensive to maintain, cannot get vapor lock and never need to be blead. The idea of hydro is better than in practice. You will also want a quality battery in an aluminum case. It will take two new chains of equal length. The bike should also get Schwalbe Cargo tires called PickUps. These are many times better than the original tires. It is a compact cargo that is lightweight. Here are what some of mine look like. My friend D'Lynda is your size and rides hers daily. You can get the 750W throttle motor.

Cargo Bike-Yuba -Boda Boda - bicycles - by owner - bike sale

A cargo bike that looks and feels like a beach cruiser. Step-through frame is sized generously for riders over 4 ft. 9 in. and under 5 ft. 10 in., and allows easy mounting and dismounting Added...

losangeles.craigslist.org

 

[tomjasz]

I have thousands of miles and 6 years of BBSxx support customers without gear sensors. They are a convenience but not a necessity. A first version TSDZ2 now has over 6000 miles with $100 in repair parts at 5000 miles. With the BBSxx series, a simple back pedal or tap on the brake cutouts to shift can be very smooth. Riders unfamiliar with proper shifting techniques can be hard on the motors. The Mrs here is a poor rider and she's 7 years into her BBS01 sans gear sensor.

A BBSHD will take anything a rider can throw at it. It can be ridden as a one-speed. BBS Heavy Duty. Often seen on pedicabs, THAT'S a brutal market known for hammering motors.

My front-drive Trek sees cargo use without cooling fins or STATORADE. A quality hub drive like a 9C from Grin with cooling fins, Hub Sink Set, and STATORADE is a great climber. I'd opt for the rear, RH212 but the FH212 will do the job< BUT it is a HEAVY motor 14lbs!!

See Grin eBikes.ca motor simulator

Sadly many repeat what they've read rather than speak from experience. There are lots of exceptions to the forum warnings.

 

[freckles]

@freckles, Welcome. Yes, you do not want a hub-drive. A TSDZ2-B is the way to go and no, these do not need a gear shift sensor, nor a heat sensor. Just back off on the pedals when shifting. Wait for a Boda Boda from Yuba to show up on Craigslist that is a value. Here is an overpriced example in your area. Pay half this or less. Properly adjusted mechanical discs are preferable to hydraulics. Mechanical discs are easy to adjust. Inexpensive to maintain, cannot get vapor lock and never need to be blead. The idea of hydro is better than in practice. You will also want a quality battery in an aluminum case. It will take two new chains of equal length. The bike should also get Schwalbe Cargo tires called PickUps. These are many times better than the original tires. It is a compact cargo that is lightweight. Here are what some of mine look like. My friend D'Lynda is your size and rides hers daily. You can get the 750W throttle motor.

Cargo Bike-Yuba -Boda Boda - bicycles - by owner - bike sale

A cargo bike that looks and feels like a beach cruiser. Step-through frame is sized generously for riders over 4 ft. 9 in. and under 5 ft. 10 in., and allows easy mounting and dismounting Added...

losangeles.craigslist.org

Hi PedalUma!

Thank you for your suggestion of a Boda Boda but I am shying away from full size dutch/cruiser style bikes b/c I have a tiny landing space to contend with to get a bike inside my front door and unfortunately, ride in a city with very rude/aggressive car drivers and no bike infrastructure.

I had a full size dutch bike- absolutely loved the plush/elegant ride but it was a daily struggle maneuvering it into my home and the laid back riding style was not nimble enough for city/urban riding (could not turn on a dime), so with great regret, I let it go. Currently I ride a nimble compact folder that I do not plan to electrify.

Besides my height/inseam, length of bike is my main limiter as I cannot increase the landing space in front of my home. I do like the Yuba Kombi more than the Tern Short Haul but the Kombi is 191 cm, following very close is the Boda Boda at 190 cm vs the Tern Short Haul at 172 cm and weighs the least at 35 lbs.

Are there other bikes with a more compact length (close to the Tern) that you might recommend? I thought between the Raleigh and Tern, the Tern is a better/higher quality bike for the price difference? Is the Tern not a good donor for conversion?

Thank you!

 

[freckles]

Imho the Tongsheng middrive is going to be harder on your drive system vs the Bafang because it has no shift detector! With a Bafang mid drive you have the option to install a shift detector. Also if your building a Cargo bike go for a middrive or at least a geared rear hub drive. I would avoid direct drive front hub motor bikes if your looking to haul cargo over NYC bridges and streets because they generally dont have the torque of a geared hub or middrive.

What does the shift detector do? I understand with mid drives (and regular pedal bikes) it's good practice to pause pedaling when shifting to lessen wear/tear on chain and derailleur- this is how I ride my bike.
I thought the Tongsheng is not as aggressive on the drive system since its a torque sensor and not as powerful as the Bafang?

 

[Dewey]

Tern don’t recommend the Short Haul for conversion, they say the aluminum fork & frame aren’t designed to take motor torque, and the chain tensioner makes fitting a mid-drive problematic.

Have you looked at the REI Co-Op Cycles Generation E bikes? They’re ideal for your use case, the e1.2 model has a steel rigid fork, front cargo rack, hydraulic brakes and is good value. A friend bought the e1.1 for her middle schooler to ride to school and it fits well for her. REI changed the gearing to make it easier to pedal at higher speed after feedback from owners. The e1.2 model uses a 48v Bafang hub motor with Class 1 controller, presumably a 35a controller upgrade using HiGo connectors might unlock Class 3 speed. Area13 ebikes sell one for the RadRunner, you might email Kyle Chittock and ask if it could work with the REI Co-Op Generation E e1.2

 

[ElevenAD]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! I pulled 330 lb up 15% grades with a ebikeling geared hub on front 26" tire. Each grade was about 100'. Then when the gears in the ebikeling motor wore out (4500 miles) I used a Mac12t front hub which was even better. The clutch in that wore out about 3000 miles. Unfortunately nobody in the US, or even aiiexpress sells these anymore. The idea of men carrying 60 lb of groceries up steep hills at 6 mph scares state legislatures (and the vendors of mid drives) to death. With a geared hub, my 8 speed chains last ~5000 miles. the sprockets so far are fine at 12000 miles.
You see in the avatar my battery is mounted out over the front wheel, also. My inseam is 28". I prefer 26" wheels so my teeth don't rattle or I bite my tongue when I ride over a pothole. When I am in line at a stoplight, or when rain covers the pavement, I can't see them.
My yuba bodaboda is aluminum, about 72 lb without bags motor or battery. 5 1/2 years so far, ~12000 miles, frame wheels spokes crank bars are fine. Unfortunately this model is no longer for sale. The replacment yuba bike has a steel frame 24" wheels and a mid-drive. If I were buying now I would buy a blix packa.

With a geared hub motor you can do this, still doesn't mean you should but you could, with direct drive you would need an extremely powerful/heavy motor thats why i recommend geared hubs for cargo bikes. As for a front mounted motor of any kind, if you think having a huge weight spinning in the middle of your front wheel makes for a good handling bike or if you think front forks where made to handle the constant torque of pulling cargo then maybe front hub motors are for you, they are not for me.

 

[ElevenAD]

What does the shift detector do? I understand with mid drives (and regular pedal bikes) it's good practice to pause pedaling when shifting to lessen wear/tear on chain and derailleur- this is how I ride my bike.
I thought the Tongsheng is not as aggressive on the drive system since its a torque sensor and not as powerful as the Bafang?

Everytime you shift the detector will pause motor power for just long enough for the bike to shift, this way you dont shift gears under full motor power. My middrive experience is this, i purchased a bbshd powered bike without a shift detector after being told i could just back off on the pedaling, i tried it and i was still mashing gears all the time constantly trying to adjust my riding to avoid grinding gears so after a month i purchased a $20 dollar shift detector from amazon, installed it and problem solved. If the detector was $150 dollar it would still be good value imo, the fact that they are $20bucks make them a no brainer.

 

[indianajo]

As for a front mounted motor of any kind, if you think having a huge weight spinning in the middle of your front wheel makes for a good handling bike or if you think front forks where made to handle the constant torque of pulling cargo then maybe front hub motors are for you, they are not for me.

I hope freckles has huge powerful hands and arms, or would enjoy polishing the pavement with his chin. Since bikes were converted to "quick steering", I've been pitched on my chin to the pavement 5 times 2008-2017. Broke it the last time. A Diamondback MTB twice, a Pacific Quantum MTB twice, a Huffy savannah 10 speed cruiser. The front wheel hits a bump, ridge of gravel, stick, snaps sideways, the tire grabs, the seat lifts, over the handlebar I go. The stretch frame cargo bike with my weight on the front wheel, plus the rotational inertia of the front wheel motor, have solved the problem. No custom frame builder in 2017 would discuss building a frame with adequate trail to solve this problem that was built into frames & forks after 1966. Quick steering was highly praised by magazines, police purchasing agencies, and saved $2 in tubing on each bike required to hang the front fork out far enough to clear the frame with safe amount of trail. There is no going back. My 1961 Joskes fleetwood cruiser, my 1966 AMF Hercules "english racer", my Mother's 1947 Firestone safety bike, had the same wheels and tires as the dangerous MTB-s & modern cruiser that threw me. The Firestone was immensely stable; would cross railroad tracks straight ahead with no hands on the bars.

 

[PedalUma]

The Bafangs have lag so they should get a shift sensor. On the TS you just back off on pedal pressure while shifting. It is smooth.

 

[tomjasz]

Someone opined, "tried it and I was still mashing gears all the time".


Technique grasshopper technique...

Having been involved in beta testing, in 2014, I have a bit of experience. I sold a lot of them but again, they're best suited to n00bs to efficient shifting techniques. In my world just another bit to go wrong.
A few issues are discussed here https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/bbsxx-shift-sensor.87861/#post-1282607

Beta testing https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/t...afang-bbs02-mid-drive-other-mid-drives.60963/

 

[tomjasz]

The Bafangs have lag so they should get a shift sensor. On the TS you just back off on pedal pressure while shifting. It is smooth.

Silly regarding Bafang, but spot on for the TSDZ2!

 

[PedalUma]

Silly regarding Bafang, but spot on for the TSDZ2!

Yes, It is the newbies. They try down shifting while upping the power and loosing momentum on a climb. Crunch. I didn't need a shift sensor on my Bafang builds. Coast briefly then shift while planning ahead for an approaching slope.

 

[freckles]

Tern don’t recommend the Quick Haul for conversion, they say the aluminum fork & frame aren’t designed to take motor torque, and the chain tensioner makes fitting a mid-drive problematic.

Have you looked at the REI Co-Op Cycles Generation E bikes? They’re ideal for your use case, the e1.2 model has a steel rigid fork, front cargo rack, hydraulic brakes and is good value. A friend bought the e1.1 for her middle schooler to ride to school and it fits well for her. REI changed the gearing to make it easier to pedal at higher speed after feedback from owners. The e1.2 model uses a 48v Bafang hub motor with Class 1 controller, presumably a 35a controller upgrade using HiGo connectors might unlock Class 3 speed. Area13 ebikes sell one for the RadRunner, you might email Kyle Chittock and ask if it could work with the REI Co-Op Generation E e1.2

Yes, I saw a page where Tern did not recommend electrifying the Short Haul...BUT the specs between the Quick Haul and Short Haul are very similar. Quick Haul is frame is EFBE tested for 150 kg, steel fork is tested for 150kg compared to the Short Haul frame is EFBE tested for 140kg, steel fork tested for 140kg. And both use a chain tensioner (Quick Haul has a Bosch mid drive). It seems like Tern does not want people to electrify their Short Haul into a cheaper (Tonsheng/Bafang) version of their Quick Haul. They do not offer any other non electric bike that has a electric counterpart except for the Quick/Short Haul.

I actually do like the REI Co-Op Generation ebikes but they don't offer them in a Class 3(capable) with throttle and torque sensor. I tried searching to see if anyone has reported unlocking their ebikes but nothing came up?

 

[freckles]

Everytime you shift the detector will pause motor power for just long enough for the bike to shift, this way you dont shift gears under full motor power. My middrive experience is this, i purchased a bbshd powered bike without a shift detector after being told i could just back off on the pedaling, i tried it and i was still mashing gears all the time constantly trying to adjust my riding to avoid grinding gears so after a month i purchased a $20 dollar shift detector from amazon, installed it and problem solved. If the detector was $150 dollar it would still be good value imo, the fact that they are $20bucks make them a no brainer.

View attachment 155346

Got it! Thank you for explaining it!

 

[freckles]

I hope freckles has huge powerful hands and arms, or would enjoy polishing the pavement with his chin. Since bikes were converted to "quick steering", I've been pitched on my chin to the pavement 5 times 2008-2017. Broke it the last time. A Diamondback MTB twice, a Pacific Quantum MTB twice, a Huffy savannah 10 speed cruiser. The front wheel hits a bump, ridge of gravel, stick, snaps sideways, the tire grabs, the seat lifts, over the handlebar I go. The stretch frame cargo bike with my weight on the front wheel, plus the rotational inertia of the front wheel motor, have solved the problem. No custom frame builder in 2017 would discuss building a frame with adequate trail to solve this problem that was built into frames & forks after 1966. Quick steering was highly praised by magazines, police purchasing agencies, and saved $2 in tubing on each bike required to hang the front fork out far enough to clear the frame with safe amount of trail. There is no going back. My 1961 Joskes fleetwood cruiser, my 1966 AMF Hercules "english racer", my Mother's 1947 Firestone safety bike, had the same wheels and tires as the dangerous MTB-s & modern cruiser that threw me. The Firestone was immensely stable; would cross railroad tracks straight ahead with no hands on the bars.

Hi Indianajo, I'm sorry but I'm don't understand the frame you are describing- stretch frame cargo bike(?)- I'm not a builder or experienced in riding beyond short distance commuting/errands. Is it like a long tail cargo bike?
I had a classic Dutch bike but the relaxed steering was not safe riding around car drivers compared to my current bike- its able to turn/pivot quicker but I do have to be cautious to not brake hard/fast b/c the compact length (shorter than a Tern) can catch air.

 

[indianajo]

You see in the avatar, there is extra 6" of frame behind the seat before the rear wheel. My bodaboda. Puts my weight on the front tire, the cargo weight on the rear. I need the stability, I don't like pitching on my chin when the front tire whips sideways. As 3 modern 26" wheel bikes have done to me since 2008. I don't understand the reference to dutch bikes, all bikes but gazelle come from China IMHO.
I try to avoid sudden movements, auto drivers have no clue what I am going to do next. When I signal a left or right turn, mostly women drivers wave back then wait stupidly for me to go straight in front of them. Men punch the throttle to get there first. I ride straight down the road wearing a high visiblity green reflective vest. On busy narrow 55 mph up highways, I ride backwards so I can swerve off the pavement into the weeds if somebody doesn't see me at all. About 1 in 100 find me invisible, drive straight on the right of the lane straddling the white line lane marker.
I've tested my bike's stop distance with load, as running into a deer at the bottom of a steep hill is a significant risk. Deer cross suddenly where the water flows. About 20' from 30 mph I estimate.

 

[freckles]

You see in the avatar, there is extra 6" of frame behind the seat before the rear wheel. My bodaboda. Puts my weight on the front tire, the cargo weight on the rear. I need the stability, I don't like pitching on my chin when the front tire whips sideways. As 3 modern 26" wheel bikes have done to me since 2008. I don't understand the reference to dutch bikes, all bikes but gazelle come from China IMHO.
I try to avoid sudden movements, auto drivers have no clue what I am going to do next. When I signal a left or right turn, mostly women drivers wave back then wait stupidly for me to go straight in front of them. Men punch the throttle to get there first. I ride straight down the road wearing a high visiblity green reflective vest. On busy narrow 55 mph up highways, I ride backwards so I can swerve off the pavement into the weeds if somebody doesn't see me at all. About 1 in 100 find me invisible, drive straight on the right of the lane straddling the white line lane marker.
I've tested my bike's stop distance with load, as running into a deer at the bottom of a steep hill is a significant risk. Deer cross suddenly where the water flows. About 20' from 30 mph I estimate.

The Omafiet I had was made in the NL by Azor, now called Amsterdam Bicycle Co.- 8 speed IGH, roller brakes, dynamo hub powered lights, elegant/plush ride but not nimble/quick turning enough to ride in the city.
I like the Boda Boda (recommended by PedalUma too) but the total length is too long to maneuver it into the entry space in front of my home. I do really like the Kombi too (their compact cargo) but its even longer than their Boda Boda
I am leaning towards the Tern Short Haul b/c its an actual COMPACT cargo bike- it looks like there is more than 6" of frame behind the seat before the rear wheel of the Short Haul too. Does that make it more stable- no pitching?