Have to ask probably very dumb question on wasting charge cycles

[tomjasz]

Thanks. Understood, but, would a non Bosch Lectric type battery be counting cycles, and count that as a cycle? Will such a battery shut itself down after counting the max cycles?

No!

 

[Alaskan]

"drastic improvements in calendar and cycle life when they are not held at the nominal full charge voltage of 4.2 V/cell but are charged to a lower voltage instead."

Correct me if I'm wrong but "held" is a synonym for stored.

 

[peterh_nz]

Relevant to this discussion is Samsung mobiles have a battery management option which limits charging to 85% "to extend the lifespan of your battery".

Information from a number of diverse manufacturers point to the same conclusion regarding battery management.

Cheers

 

[fooferdoggie]

the thing is the lower end battery packs may get unbalanced if they are not charged to 100% every so often

 

[AHicks]

SO! now science is mumbo jumbo? Come on Al. It's not just Grin. See the data Ravi has posted from a SCIENTIST! The batteries I religulously used my two Satiators on were the longest lasting. It's not something Justin pulled out of his arse. Don't let your criticism of the looks of the CA2 and CA3 cloud your thinking.

You guys are free to do as you like. I will continue using my OEM chargers, using the directions supplied with them, as will 99.99% of other people buying ebikes. When you convince the OEM's to recalibrate the shut off points on these OEM chargers based on a belief of your/Grin's "scientific evidence", I'll start using that recalibrated charger, letting it run until it shuts off/indicates a full charge. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

 

[tomjasz]

You guys are free to do as you like. I will continue using my OEM chargers, using the directions supplied with them, as will 99.99% of other people buying ebikes. When you convince the OEM's to recalibrate the shut off points on these OEM chargers based on a belief of your/Grin's "scientific evidence", I'll start using that recalibrated charger, letting it run until it shuts off/indicates a full charge. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

Sure Al I get that. Do your own thing, but denying good science seems silly. I care less what 99% do. These days disinformation abounds. LED lights make skin orange, climate change is a hoax, toilets have to be flushed ten times, wind power kills all the birds, and... oh never mind. Once you make up your mind facts be damned...

what’s the impetus for an OEM to conserve batteries? They can sell you replacements...

 

[AHicks]

Sure Al I get that. Do your own thing, but denying good science seems silly. I care less what 99% do. These days disinformation abounds. LED lights make skin orange, climate change is a hoax, toilets have to be flushed ten times, wind power kills all the birds, and... oh never mind. Once you make up your mind facts be damned...

My bigger point is this. If I am able to get the 600 plus charge cycles that they commonly advertise, and I'm averaging 30 plus miles on each of those cycles, that's 18,000 miles. Why in the world would I want to jump though any hoops to extend the life of this battery any further?

To put this into even better perspective, my 2016 RAD, with maybe 6000 miles on it, is still holding it's own at 6 years old. Using the 600 plus charges it's supposed to be good for, and the fact I'm averaging 30 miles on a charge, that would make the bike due for a new battery in 18 years? (still on my first cup, feel free to correct my math)

Clearly there's little chance that bike will still be around at that point. Thought being here, messing with the 80% theory/science might be a little overkill for many of us.....

 

[Alaskan]

@tomjasz

I am curious as to your opinion (one I do respect on this topic) regarding avoiding storing or holding batteries at a charge level above 80% being the primary concern. As I said earlier, my research has lead me in the direction of keeping my batteries below 80% but charging them fully just before going on longer rides such that they are not at above 80% charge for more than an hour or so. Any time they sit idle they are held between 40 and 80 percent. My own anecdotal experience doing this for the past 4 years is no perceptible loss of battery capacity on any of my bikes.

To quote Grin on this, "drastic improvements in calendar and cycle life when they are not held at the nominal full charge voltage of 4.2 V/cell but are charged to a lower voltage instead." I take the word held to mean stored. Grin does not specify just what the harmful holding period is.
It is also my understanding that in order to keep the cells balanced, the charger needs to take the batteries to a full 100% charge to complete the balancing process. This implies that it may reduce battery life to never bring them past 80% charge.

Do I have it wrong that storage or holding the batteries at above 80% charge is the real issue but there is little impact in charging higher so long as the battery is left in that state for any length of time?

 

[AHicks]

"so long as the battery is left in that state for any length of time?"

Misprint maybe? Should read:

"so long as the battery is NOT left in that state (100% charged) for any length of time?"

 

[AHicks]

As far as "balance charging" an e-bike battery, I did a deep dive on that a while back, led by some folks whose opinions are generally well respected. That resulted in me being led through a bunch of stuff that changed my mind on the need to do that in THIS application. The reason they told me, based on a bunch of their own testing, was the low discharge rate placed on each cell in a pack this size.

I still balance charge the batteries I use in Radio Control, but those cells are discharged at an extremely high rate as compared to what the cells in an e-bike battery will ever see.

 

[tomjasz]

@tomjasz

I am curious as to your opinion (one I do respect on this topic) regarding avoiding storing or holding batteries at a charge level above 80% being the primary concern. As I said earlier, my research has lead me in the direction of keeping my batteries below 80% but charging them fully just before going on longer rides such that they are not at above 80% charge for more than an hour or so. Any time they sit idle they are held between 40 and 80 percent. My own anecdotal experience doing this for the past 4 years is no perceptible loss of battery capacity on any of my bikes.

To quote Grin on this, "drastic improvements in calendar and cycle life when they are not held at the nominal full charge voltage of 4.2 V/cell but are charged to a lower voltage instead." I take the word held to mean stored. Grin does not specify just what the harmful holding period is.
It is also my understanding that in order to keep the cells balanced, the charger needs to take the batteries to a full 100% charge to complete the balancing process. This implies that it may reduce battery life to never bring them past 80% charge.

Do I have it wrong that storage or holding the batteries at above 80% charge is the real issue but there is little impact in charging higher so long as the battery is left in that state for any length of time?

I think Ravi lays it out pretty clearly,

E-Bike Battery Guide

This thread is dedicated for helping new E-bike owners to understand and maintain their batteries in the best possible way. There is a lot of confusion for any new E-bike owner as to how one should treat their batteries: Shop owners may say one thing, online resources may another thing, someone...

electricbikereview.com

He works with renowned experts.

 

[prestoOne]

I am not so old of a dog to be unable to learn new tricks.

Ok...not all batteries are made of the same stuff but Samsung has an option for charging only to 80% and Tesla is the same.
Tesla says:
What percentage should I charge the battery to?
For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu.
https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq

Personally I had always thought it was 100% so this is what I will do with all my device charging now. Guess at how long it takes to charge to %85 and set the wall socket timer ($10 and you should have it anyways) to turn off after that time.

 

[Alaskan]

I think Ravi lays it out pretty clearly,

E-Bike Battery Guide

This thread is dedicated for helping new E-bike owners to understand and maintain their batteries in the best possible way. There is a lot of confusion for any new E-bike owner as to how one should treat their batteries: Shop owners may say one thing, online resources may another thing, someone...

electricbikereview.com

He works with renowned experts.

@Ravi Kempaiah has been a valuable contributor and a source of solid, trustworthy and reliable information on this forum for quite some time. I remember this post well. Thanks for reminding me about it.

This was one of the first bits of information, from well informed expert sources, that led me to the strategy I described in #28. My conclusion was basically that there was very little harm in bringing the battery up to 100% charge (in fact to achieve balancing it has to be done from time to time). The major harm is done by leaving the battery for any period of time at 100%. I have not read any other info, from knowledgeable sources, that have caused me to consider alternative strategies.

 

[indianajo]

I bought a Luna 3 level charger. 100%, 90%, 80%. It arrived broken. I didn't feel like arguing or begging in summer so I put it away. Then the burglar stole it.
I achieve the 80% effect by using a simple 120 vac timer to shut the $25 charger off (it has 100% shutoff built in.) Then I measure with a DVM. Most of the time I charge to 85-92%.
I charge to 100% 2 or 3 times a year. Not right before winter storage.
My 48v 17.5 ah luna battery is 4 year old ~400 charges. I charged to 53.4 v Friday or 92%. I rode 36 miles with it yesterday & today, including ~88 hills and a 12 mph headwind. It is at 50.1 v or 46%. I'd say it is in excellent shape.
What, me worry?

 

[m@Robertson]

How to make a lithium battery last, or…kill it, if you like.

We have written in the past about tips that will help your expensive lithium battery pack last as long as possible. This article will cover some additional information about what happens inside the…

www.electricbike.com

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

Adhering to the 80%/40% rule as if its really a rule will prolong the life of your pack. Depth of discharge is every bit as bad as charging to 100% and letting it sit overnight. But its tough enough convincing some people to limit themselves to 80% as it is so avoiding high depth-of-discharge is generally left out of the instructions to noobs.

Using less of your battery to maintain its maximum lifespan points buyers in the direction of buying more battery than they think they need. Thats a correct course to take. Should you also not use your bike to its fullest degree because of these 'rules'? I would say no. Just don't be stupid about it, and recognize if you ride it hard its going to die sooner. Period. If I charge to 100% I hook up the charger 1st thing in the morning and disconnect right before I leave. The pack doesn't sit at 100% ever if I can avoid it.

None of these effects are open for debate. They are what they are. The question is whether you want to do something about them. I have a big battery I bought from Luna in 2015. It powered my daily driver for years, and I was ridiculously religious about enforcing the 80/40 rule on it. I charged at home and I charged at work so I never ran it down. In 2022 its still going strong. Part of that is because the builder chose really strong cells for it and a big, badass BMS.

 

[tomjasz]

Luna in 2015.

Both of my triangle packs from early 2016, they only started selling them in late fall of 2015, aged out on me. Total saggers! But one EM3ev pack from 2014 that was “Satiated“ is still pushing a buddies bike with no issues.

 

[Mike_V]

"None of these effects are open for debate.":. Propaganda
The effects related to primitive battery pack construction using spot welders, braided wire and solder?
Explain this data with cells tested by fully charging and fully discharging approaching 1,000 cycles

"Both of my triangle packs from early 2016, they only started selling them in late fall of 2015, aged out on me. Total saggers! ".
Did you buy the batteries with your Luna employee discount?
Lithium battery cell technology and products have improved since 2016. Manufacturing with wire bonding. More data?

 

[tomjasz]

(in fact to achieve balancing it has to be done from time to time).

I’ve discovered with my EM3ev BT BMS batteries that’s not the case. I’ve never done an 100% charge in 4 months and the BT app on my iPhone shows all balanced cells. I believe Mikey V’s battery also has a BMS that does the job. Does Bosch give you the ability to choose percentage of charge? My buddy here just charges and rides and got 14,000 miles on his original Trek/Bosch.

 

[Alaskan]

I’ve discovered with my EM3ev BT BMS batteries that’s not the case. I’ve never done an 100% charge in 4 months and the BT app on my iPhone shows all balanced cells. I believe Mikey V’s battery also has a BMS that does the job. Does Bosch give you the ability to choose percentage of charge? My buddy here just charges and rides and got 14,000 miles on his original Trek/Bosch.

Bosch does not have any options for charging to less than 100% (unless that really is not 100% I am left using a timer between the AC plug and the wall outlet. The timer four options, on or timed for 1,2 or 3 hours. From experience each hour is about 30%. If I get home from a ride with 20%, I give it a two hour charge which brings it up to 80% (if it is more than 20% I give it an hour of charge). Then an hour or two before riding, I top it off to 100% and go. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[tomjasz]

Bosch does not have any options for charging to less than 100% (unless that really is not 100% I am left using a timer between the AC plug and the wall outlet. The timer four options, on or timed for 1,2 or 3 hours. From experience each hour is about 30%. If I get home from a ride with 20%, I give it a two hour charge which brings it up to 80% (if it is more than 20% I give it an hour of charge). Then an hour or two before riding, I top it off to 100% and go. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well given the mileage my friend is getting and he NEVER does anything other than plug it in and unplug when it shows complete, the system must be doing something? No?