Happy wife, Happy Life!

[dynamic]

@mschwett Gear range vs weight. I know what the calculations say to some extent. I also know that getting up my hill on a 26 gear inch bike (breezer radar X) needed some rest stops. The sirrus X 4.0 is also 26 gear inches. The priority pinions get down to 16 gear inches but weigh more (and will cost 2x or 3x depending on the model). The total weight difference between lightest and heaviest is 3.5% (bike + rider)

What I don't know is how they will feel. I can't test ride either actual bike. My fit sheet needs the handlebars fairly high, so I *think* the pinions are going to be a more natural fit for me. The pinion will weight about the same as the vado SL which was great to ride with the motor off. Sirrus X 4 will weigh about 10 lbs less. (Was also considering the diverge evo, but I think comfort would be better on the sirrus X)

 

[dynamic]

That's what the user of SUV e-bike would certainly do As I say, Tero X is a proper SUV e-bike, not an e-MTB.

That is exactly what makes it so appealing.

 

[mschwett]

@mschwett Gear range vs weight. I know what the calculations say to some extent. I also know that getting up my hill on a 26 gear inch bike (breezer radar X) needed some rest stops. The sirrus X 4.0 is also 26 gear inches. The priority pinions get down to 16 gear inches but weigh more (and will cost 2x or 3x depending on the model). The total weight difference between lightest and heaviest is 3.5% (bike + rider)

What I don't know is how they will feel. I can't test ride either actual bike. My fit sheet needs the handlebars fairly high, so I *think* the pinions are going to be a more natural fit for me. The pinion will weight about the same as the vado SL which was great to ride with the motor off. Sirrus X 4 will weigh about 10 lbs less. (Was also considering the diverge evo, but I think comfort would be better on the sirrus X)

i've found that the real world and the math/physics align surprisingly well, with perhaps a 5 or 10% "feel" penalty for trying to push extra load yourself up a hill, or significantly more if the math/conditions throws me out of my ideal cadence range. no speed is really "constant" so micro-acceleration and deceleration probably accounts for that extra 5-10% when climbing.

the difference between my light and heavy bike is more like 8% of total load. the light one has about 6% taller gearing at the low end, and it feels exactly the same really. variations like wind and energy level make a much bigger difference.

i'm not really a spinner - i tend to favor slightly lower cadences - but i ABSOLUTELY see my power drop like a rock as cadence on a climb gets too low. i can sustain 250w for a long time at the right cadence (let's say 70-90rpm) on a big climb, but if it gets too steep for a long time (>12%) i run out of gears, cadence drops, and power drops. vicious cycle. weight is absolutely 100% proportionally involved in this equation, so i'm pretty confident that if i needed to carry 50lb of stuff, i could do it as long as i had 25% shorter gearing. (or a motor )

that difference in gearing is WAY more than any weight difference will account for - although don't forget that the pinion routinely tests at 90% efficient, vs 96+ for a well maintained chain system.

200 watts at the crank on the sirrus is probably 192 at the wheel. 192 * 1.035 (to account for the weight) means you need 199 at the wheel with the heavier pinion bike, which is 220 at the crank at 90% efficiency. so it's actually a 10% difference that the gearing needs to make up for (which it does, and more) - and it's all completely wasted energy. i really want a pinion bike but i have drifted towards a small mid drive with a rohloff for my current project. lighter and more efficient, sadly.

my older daughter has a blue sirrus x 4.0. great bike. bulletproof. haven't had to touch a thing on it in at least a year. she rides it up the 20% hills in our neighborhood, but pre-teens have a really good power to weight ratio

 

[dynamic]

i've found that the real world and the math/physics align surprisingly well, with perhaps a 5 or 10% "feel" penalty for trying to push extra load yourself up a hill, or significantly more if the math/conditions throws me out of my ideal cadence range. no speed is really "constant" so micro-acceleration and deceleration probably accounts for that extra 5-10% when climbing.

the difference between my light and heavy bike is more like 8% of total load. the light one has about 6% taller gearing at the low end, and it feels exactly the same really. variations like wind and energy level make a much bigger difference.

i'm not really a spinner - i tend to favor slightly lower cadences - but i ABSOLUTELY see my power drop like a rock as cadence on a climb gets too low. i can sustain 250w for a long time at the right cadence (let's say 70-90rpm) on a big climb, but if it gets too steep for a long time (>12%) i run out of gears, cadence drops, and power drops. vicious cycle. weight is absolutely 100% proportionally involved in this equation, so i'm pretty confident that if i needed to carry 50lb of stuff, i could do it as long as i had 25% shorter gearing. (or a motor )

I am thinking about ordering the Sirrus X 5.0 and saying screw the weight limit ( I am hopefully < 10 lbs over currently and won't be adding anything to the bike. Not even the garmin most likely ). I can't find another relax ride flat bar gravel bike that competes with it across the board. The next thing I like is the surly bridge club, but I feel like everything about the sirrus x is better for me.

Anyway, will probably decide tomorrow.

 

[mschwett]

I am thinking about ordering the Sirrus X 5.0 and saying screw the weight limit ( I am hopefully < 10 lbs over currently and won't be adding anything to the bike. Not even the garmin most likely ). I can't find another relax ride flat bar gravel bike that competes with it across the board. The next thing I like is the surly bridge club, but I feel like everything about the sirrus x is better for me.

Anyway, will probably decide tomorrow.

the new carbon half-seat-tube one?

i’m guessing 240lb is super conservative, but with that particular frame it’d be interesting to know how much weight they assume is on the seat tube vs the pedals and bars. specialized claims that same weight limit for many of their carbon bikes, from my 14lb aethos with it’s pencil thin seat stays to creos and MTBs with huge tubes.

if you get it, upgrade it to GX eagle axs! should be a piece of cake.

 

[dynamic]

if you get it, upgrade it to GX eagle axs! should be a piece of cake.

Ooo! You think my LBS can handle that?

 

[JayUK]

I am thinking about ordering the Sirrus X 5.0 and saying screw the weight limit ( I am hopefully < 10 lbs over currently and won't be adding anything to the bike. Not even the garmin most likely ). I can't find another relax ride flat bar gravel bike that competes with it across the board. The next thing I like is the surly bridge club, but I feel like everything about the sirrus x is better for me.

Anyway, will probably decide tomorrow.

I am also a heavy rider. The main issue you may have is the spokes, regular checking and tightening may be needed. Not sure how many spokes are one each Sirrus wheel but really you want 32 per wheel. I used to run 32 hole DT Swiss R500DB rims on my old 700c bikes.

 

[dynamic]

I am also a heavy rider. The main issue you may have is the spokes, regular checking and tightening may be needed. Not sure how many spokes are one each Sirrus wheel but really you want 32 per wheel. I used to run 32 hole DT Swiss R500DB rims on my old 700c bikes.

It’s 24h and 28h hubs. Which would mean a hub and possibly wheel change? The specs on the non carbon sirrus x 4.0 claim a 32h rim.

I was also considering the X 4.0 and tinkering with different upgrades. (more so than the 5.0, because the 5.0 has the cassette range I want)

 

[dynamic]

200 watts at the crank on the sirrus is probably 192 at the wheel. 192 * 1.035 (to account for the weight) means you need 199 at the wheel with the heavier pinion bike, which is 220 at the crank at 90% efficiency. so it's actually a 10% difference that the gearing needs to make up for (which it does, and more) - and it's all completely wasted energy. i really want a pinion bike but i have drifted towards a small mid drive with a rohloff for my current project. lighter and more efficient, sadly.

This is a good clarification. How are you defining the % difference in gearing that is being made up? Just in the difference in min/max gear inches? so 26 vs 16 is % wise a pretty big jump.

I really like my mid drive rohloff in everything *but* the power cut off. Having 1500 watts cut off from under you while you shift is seriously disconcerting (only an issue at higher power levels, not so bad at the lower ones). With a lighter motor, or one where the shut off isn't necessary to protect the hub, not sure if that's reality based, it would be a really good bike. I think bosch handles it by toning down the power, not shutting it off?

Anyway, on these hills I am shifting constantly, and the experience gets old fast. A chain is far less intrusive overall except when the hill is steep enough that there is no such thing as "moderate" pedaling for a gear change.

 

[mschwett]

This is a good clarification. How are you defining the % difference in gearing that is being made up? Just in the difference in min/max gear inches? so 26 vs 16 is % wise a pretty big jump.

I really like my mid drive rohloff in everything *but* the power cut off. Having 1500 watts cut off from under you while you shift is seriously disconcerting (only an issue at higher power levels, not so bad at the lower ones). With a lighter motor, or one where the shut off isn't necessary to protect the hub, not sure if that's reality based, it would be a really good bike. I think bosch handles it by toning down the power, not shutting it off?

Anyway, on these hills I am shifting constantly, and the experience gets old fast. A chain is far less intrusive overall except when the hill is steep enough that there is no such thing as "moderate" pedaling for a gear change.

yeah that doesn’t sound good!!! it’s also sounds like you shift a lot. i shift a lot in the city and on rollers but for bit climbs, tend to just settle into the lowest gear lol.

in terms of “effort to go uphill” gear inches (or gear ratio if tires are same) and weight are basically proportionally interchangeable. at these slow speeds not much else comes into play other than the drivetrain efficiency mentioned above. so, 10% more weight, you want 10% less gear inches, or a 10% lower gear ratio with the same tires. e.g. 42:42 (1:1) vs 42:38 (1:1.1).

all my bikes have very close to the same circumference tires so i don’t really think in gear inches.

 

[dynamic]

it’s also sounds like you shift a lot.

Wouldn't you if the terrain changed from 3% 6% 9% 14% 5% 7% grade possibly several times over the course of a mile climb? On the blade (rohloff), it got to the point that I preferred to change the power level than the gear. So I would leave it in a middle gear and adjust power instead. With 9 levels, that actually works ok. But I end up spending a lot of time in battery sucking modes with an IGH that can actually handle the hills. Silly.

or a 10% lower gear ratio with the same tires. e.g. 42:42 (1:1) vs 42:38 (1:1.1).

Got it. I do think in gear inches because none of these bikes have the same tires as I evaluate them. But, I am not sure that 2-4 gear inches has significant value.

Attached is a comparison of the 600x, sirrus x 4, x 5 and a mod version with a 10-52 cassette compatible with the gx axs electronic shifter upgrade kit. Right now, it looks like a sirrus x 4.0 with drivetrain upgrades makes the most sense (won't cost too much more than the x 5 stock). And the only thing that would change that is if the carbon frame itself is worth anything to me. And I have no way to know that currently (and may still need to deal with weight limits). I would also eventually want a power meter crank arm (hate the garmin pedals).

Knowing what I know today, I would do a sirrus x 4 with the intent to upgrade it.

IS carbon worth it?

 

[dynamic]

The bike shop just got a tero x 6 delivered to build for someone. Such an appealing bike.

 

[mschwett]

Wouldn't you if the terrain changed from 3% 6% 9% 14% 5% 7% grade possibly several times over the course of a mile climb? On the blade (rohloff), it got to the point that I preferred to change the power level than the gear. So I would leave it in a middle gear and adjust power instead. With 9 levels, that actually works ok. But I end up spending a lot of time in battery sucking modes with an IGH that can actually handle the hills. Silly.



Got it. I do think in gear inches because none of these bikes have the same tires as I evaluate them. But, I am not sure that 2-4 gear inches has significant value.

Attached is a comparison of the 600x, sirrus x 4, x 5 and a mod version with a 10-52 cassette compatible with the gx axs electronic shifter upgrade kit. Right now, it looks like a sirrus x 4.0 with drivetrain upgrades makes the most sense (won't cost too much more than the x 5 stock). And the only thing that would change that is if the carbon frame itself is worth anything to me. And I have no way to know that currently (and may still need to deal with weight limits). I would also eventually want a power meter crank arm (hate the garmin pedals).

Knowing what I know today, I would do a sirrus x 4 with the intent to upgrade it.

IS carbon worth it?

that 50t gets you pretty close! i can’t think of any reason the sirrus x 4 couldn’t take the 10-50 with the right RD.

for me, road or gravel, carbon is worth it, no question. carbon everything, no heavy floppy suspension posts or stems needed for comfort on long rides. many marginal gains add up to significant ones. however, i don’t do singletrack often, ride on mostly decent roads, and go up a lot of hills!! i also don’t bang my bikes around in a way that might make the only liability of carbon meaningful.

a sirrus x 6 with axs would be a super fun ride.

 

[dynamic]

that 50t gets you pretty close! i can’t think of any reason the sirrus x 4 couldn’t take the 10-50 with the right RD.

for me, road or gravel, carbon is worth it, no question. carbon everything, no heavy floppy suspension posts or stems needed for comfort on long rides. many marginal gains add up to significant ones. however, i don’t do singletrack often, ride on mostly decent roads, and go up a lot of hills!! i also don’t bang my bikes around in a way that might make the only liability of carbon meaningful.

a sirrus x 6 with axs would be a super fun ride.

Yeah, it’s not clear to me that carbon helps with the dirt/gravel/pothole roads. And, as you say, that could become a problem. But if it got rid of the hand numbness, it would be totally worth it.

If I got the x 5, I wouldn’t upgrade the cassette. But I would on the x 4 (unless I suddenly found the gearing to be sufficient for the bikes intended use).

Hopefully going that direction. My LBS is frustrated with me at the moment. So I am giving them some time. You guys might get your wish of an LBS switch. But, if that happens, it is not likely to involve specialized.

 

[rayray]

Yeah, it’s not clear to me that carbon helps with the dirt/gravel/pothole roads. And, as you say, that could become a problem. But if it got rid of the hand numbness, it would be totally worth it.

If I got the x 5, I wouldn’t upgrade the cassette. But I would on the x 4 (unless I suddenly found the gearing to be sufficient for the bikes intended use).

Hopefully going that direction. My LBS is frustrated with me at the moment. So I am giving them some time. You guys might get your wish of an LBS switch. But, if that happens, it is not likely to involve specialized.

My Trek Allant+ 9.9S was carbon fiber, and it didn’t help one bit. To me, it felt extremely stiff, and caused lower back pain with every bump, as well as numb hands. I was constantly shifting positions and shaking the sting out of my hands. I added a suspension seatpost and flexing handlebars, both of which did help a great deal.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You guys might get your wish of an LBS switch. But, if that happens, it is not likely to involve specialized.

Leave the crappy LBS and learn a new lesson!

 

[dynamic]

My Trek Allant+ 9.9S was carbon fiber, and it didn’t help one bit. To me, it felt extremely stiff, and caused lower back pain with every bump, as well as numb hands. I was constantly shifting positions and shaking the sting out of my hands. I added a suspension seatpost and flexing handlebars, both of which did help a great deal.

Kinekt suspension seat post and stem helped. The stem was a problem due to fit. But I never got all those things on a bike and the fit right.

I actually talked to another LBS today. They mostly do custom builds, so I am not sure I am reaching a price point I can live with. But, I would be comfortable with them if I find something that works.

 

[dynamic]

Leave the crappy LBS and learn a new lesson!

Sure. But the bike will likely be a trek or a few brands I haven’t researched yet.

 

[JayUK]

It’s 24h and 28h hubs. Which would mean a hub and possibly wheel change? The specs on the non carbon sirrus x 4.0 claim a 32h rim.

I was also considering the X 4.0 and tinkering with different upgrades. (more so than the 5.0, because the 5.0 has the cassette range I want)

I used to get my 700C 32h's custom made, not that expensive and the wheels lasted forever. Worth looking into, in fact I may get some custom wheels for my Vado!

 

[JayUK]

Yeah, it’s not clear to me that carbon helps with the dirt/gravel/pothole roads. And, as you say, that could become a problem. But if it got rid of the hand numbness, it would be totally worth it.

If I got the x 5, I wouldn’t upgrade the cassette. But I would on the x 4 (unless I suddenly found the gearing to be sufficient for the bikes intended use).

Hopefully going that direction. My LBS is frustrated with me at the moment. So I am giving them some time. You guys might get your wish of an LBS switch. But, if that happens, it is not likely to involve specialized.

Carbon can be a real bone shaker, try and test a carbon bike if you can before purchase. If comfort is a priority carbon may not be for you. I am old school, and steel frames have always given the best comfort.