Happy wife, Happy Life!

[PSm]

Have you ridden one extensively? I am continuing to try because the experience is night and day better than a chain (which is why I stopped biking), a rohloff (which I currently own), a manual enviolo (which I have owned) or any other bike I have owned or tested. I get why people don't like it. I get why people don't like automatic cars also. Manual can be fun in an entirely different way. To put simply, if your purpose is to ride the bike: manual can have appeal. In the same way that if the fun part of driving a subaru wrx is the drive, then the manual is essential to the experience. But if the point is where you are going, the automatic is far more appealing.



The point of the posts is to not let the internet trolls who think they know better with zero information override the actual information. @Stefan Mikes has a ton of experience and knowledge, but he jumps to conclusions without the real information. I will be defensive against that anywhere.



Truth. But there are limited sources of people posting their experiences about this model. Reddit, is unfortunately, one of them.



This sums up all the problems. There is no good data for us as consumers to make real decisions about any of this.



This statement has no bearing in reality with the current information you have available. You are the one attempting to spread misinformation. You and I *don't know* the reason the bike is failing, or the solution. Until that is known, you can't actually realistically blame the LBS. The fact that you then compare to a specialized owned *flagship* store and use that as evidence? really? It only makes an ass out of you. Just stop.



More misinformation. Expected I guess.

We all have a perspective based on our own experience, and what is right for me might be different than that for someone else.

Too many out there that think they “know it all,” and I try to catch myself sometimes also from doing that.

Regarding the OP, my opinion is that both Specialized and the LBS are at fault, and they need to have a better quality of manufacture/assembly and or level of service. Not a very high bar or expectation, I think.

 

[dynamic]

Harness is in. Both bikes are at the shop for their respective "fixes". Fun times.

You guys keep acting like I can just go to a different LBS. Let me clarify something for you: I live in the capital of Vermont. It is all of 8,000 people. This LBS is *the* Specialized LBS within a reasonable distance. And, until a month ago, I couldn't transport bikes anywhere. Many of the surrounding dealerships are smaller than this one and would have even less experience with these high end IGH models. I would not have the time to be delivering these bikes to an LBS even a half hour away, let alone 1-2 hours in one direction. And that LBS isn't going to be a flagship store with all the common parts in stock. It *MIGHT* be better than mine. But with IGH models? I would not take any bets.

It's great that you guys can pick among multiple great LBS. I can't. This is the one. So, if Specialized is incapable of stepping up, they have eliminated themselves as a reliable brand for IGH bikes for me. Notice the qualification: *IGH* and *for me*. Context is king. I still stand by the fact that the Specialized biking experience is and has been second to none on their IGH models when working. My wife and I are on the verge of sending these back and purchasing a Roll and a Sirrus X just to do trail riding with the kids. Solve E-Bikes another day. She took a quick ride on the Roll while we were delivering the bikes for maintenance and it got a thumbs up.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Would you guys PLEASE agree to disagree and move on? Nobody's persuading anybody at this point.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

purchasing a Roll and a Sirrus X just to do trail riding with the kids

So the Roll and the Sirrus X are carbon belt and IGH?

 

[dynamic]

So the Roll and the Sirrus X are carbon belt and IGH?

Nope. But they are comparatively cheap. And I am not opposed to owning regular bikes for the slow family rides. They just won’t get much use beyond that.

I am considering the priority turi and one of the priority pinion models. To keep belt in the picture.

 

[dynamic]

Would you guys PLEASE agree to disagree and move on? Nobody's persuading anybody at this point.

Nope. Haven’t you seen our history?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Nope. But they are comparatively cheap. And I am not opposed to owning regular bikes for the slow family rides. They just won’t get much use beyond that.

If you didn't insist riding belt/IGH e-bikes, you and your wife would have probably many miles ridden on your chain e-bikes and hopefully those e-bikes would not exceed the competence of your LBS (not sure on the latter though)

 

[dynamic]

If you didn't insist riding belt/IGH e-bikes, you and your wife would have probably many miles ridden on your chain e-bikes and hopefully those e-bikes would not exceed the competence of your LBS (not sure on the latter though)

Maybe. Honestly, I am not sure I would be as motivated to ride the chain models. While they may be more problem free, if I ride less often because the experience isn’t so… engaging, then it brings up the question of value. The blade isn’t worth owning simply because I don’t choose to ride it enough to justify it being in the garage. I don’t need another 5k bike sitting in the garage. Besides, if I were to buy a chain model, it would be the tero X.

 

[dynamic]

Wiring harness didn't fix it. In an effort to shorten the ensuing discussion:

@Stefan Mikes: Does the LBS even know how to change a wiring harness?
@mschwett: This still sounds like the LBS should be dealing with it.
@tomjasz: we don't have the whole story.
random others: Why can't we all just get along? Why are you wasting your life on this?
me: It's specialized fault.

Cool. Time saved.

In other news, a recalibration of the hub on my bike seems to have corrected the gear display issue. The shop manager is out tomorrow, so the story continues friday at earliest. I can't wait to see the next episode. This one is a real nail biter.

 

[mschwett]

bummer on the wiring harness.

i sympathize on the “L” in LBS - i don’t put my bikes in/on cars, except for unfixable flats. but since you have that option, i do wonder if any of the 8 retailers listed within 45 miles of the nation’s least populous state capital are more technically savvy with these automatic IGH bikes.

your take on the belt+IGH experience is sort of the opposite of mine. i find it amazing for commuting and errands, but a total no-go for sport riding. light, efficient, responsive electronic derailleur and chain is the way.

 

[dynamic]

i do wonder if any of the 8 retailers listed within 45 miles

As a local, I can veto some of them based on local.... information. Others, I don't know one way or another. But, the only way to find out is to order again and deliver to one of them. And that just isn't worth it at this point. If for no other reason than if they aren't better, or are worse, I already know specialized isn't going to step up.

your take on the belt+IGH experience is sort of the opposite of mine.

Yeah, I assume most people here bike because they want to bike. The act of biking itself. I don't do that. The vehicle could be anything I can do practically on this terrain for as much of the year as possible. The reality for me is there aren't many options that fit. Roller blades (which I love by the way) are a hard no. I even got special off road ones when I first moved to vermont. They just aren't feasible for me on the hills or road quality. Skis are seasonal (and the part of the season that is harder for me to motivate). Also, I really don't like skiing. Honestly, the next best thing is probably running. And the range is just stupid. I get bored of the same routes. I can't tell you how many couch to 5k I have done... then quit. That 5k gets really boring.

For me, biking is about seeing the gorgeous scenic views of vermont. Getting out into the sun and nature. And developing some physical fitness while trying to relieve stress. The best thing for me is if the vehicle effectively "disappears". Clipped in to an automatic IGH does that better than anything else I have experienced. There is virtually no noise (by comparison), there is nothing to think about in terms of managing feet or hands, pedal adjustments, shifting... etc. I can simply enjoy the view, soak up the sun, and achieve some physical and mental health. And, I am a bit of a speed demon at times, and it feeds that as well. Not to mention that bikes have lots of practical uses (like quick grocery runs!) that fit the benefits into busier days.

I assume that is a bit different than most "bikers". If a scooter did this for me, I would ride a scooter.

 

[mschwett]

…The best thing for me is if the vehicle effectively "disappears". Clipped in to an automatic IGH does that better than anything else I have experienced. There is virtually no noise (by comparison), there is nothing to think about in terms of managing feet or hands, pedal adjustments, shifting... etc. I can simply enjoy the view, soak up the sun, and achieve some physical and mental health. And, I am a bit of a speed demon at times, and it feeds that as well. Not to mention that bikes have lots of practical uses (like quick grocery runs!) that fit the benefits into busier days.

I assume that is a bit different than most "bikers". If a scooter did this for me, I would ride a scooter.

i agree about the vehicle disappearing. that’s really the goal. but i wonder if you’ve ridden a really light, well-maintained, waxed chain 12 or 13 speed carbon bike with electronic shifting. maybe the sirrus X will get you there. the best way i can describe it is that it’s the closest thing to flying under your own power that a human can experience. i literally cannot hear my bike over the wind and tire noise most of the time, the clipping in makes it a seamless extension of your body, and the light weight makes it disappear relative to your own much much greater mass and inertia.

probably not the right fit for your riding, but we’re actually looking for the same thing. i haven’t ridden in vermont but it’s all about the scenery and variety here, multiple “seasons” in one ride, and the range of a bicycle (vs running) lets you visit a half dozen ecosystems (urban, suburban, plains, wetlands, redwood forests, coastal scrub, beach, temperate rainforest, etc) in one ride. it’s amazing, and the more the bike goes away the better. with you on that.

 

[dynamic]

but i wonder if you’ve ridden a really light, well-maintained, waxed chain 12 or 13 speed carbon bike with electronic shifting.

This has occurred to me. You do still need to actually shift. And while I admit that was much less of an issue on the vado SL than I thought it would be, I was also very focused on the fitness aspects simply trying to climb my hill. I am not sure I could pull off the vado SL on these rides that I used sport mode on the regular vado. If I am too exhausted from the fitness aspect to enjoy the view... I am not sure that would be an improvement even if the riding itself was a blast. But, I honestly won't know without trying. Even the vado SL might surprise me on a backroad ride.

probably not the right fit for your riding, but we’re actually looking for the same thing.

Going from a local highway, to downtown city streets, to a local park exiting via a single track trail to a back dirt road and heading home. All in the space of 5-10 miles. And that will only take about 45 minutes. It's amazing. There was a section of road last year that I called kamikaze squirrels. Pretty sure that doesn't need much explanation. While I didn't kill any of them by bike, I do consider that to be a minor miracle. The cow crossing was fun. I actually missed most of that one, but definitely a site (and smell) by bike. I actually stopped last fall to watch leaves falling like snow on one of the tree canopy backroads. That one made me want to start carrying my real camera.

That's why I bike and want to bike more. But the more distracting a down shift that cuts off the motor briefly during a scenic climb (blade), or a gear change needs to happen because there is a sudden 12% incline in the middle of a scenic view (chain)... I end up focusing on the bike, not the journey. Yeah, I know it is nitpicky, but the automatic just eliminates any focus on it at all. Even the feeling that shifting is happening is almost non-existent outside of the feeling in the shift of pedal power. A manual CVT or nexus/pinion with little interruption during the actual shifting is the next best thing. And, I am not gonna lie, rotating shifters suck. My favorite shifter style is definitely rapid fire if I must shift. Chain is ok as long as you are conscious of your gear when you are stopping (or you are willing to pour on the motor power to start in some random higher gear at times).

Speaking of which, I would love to try that new smart pinion thing. But the stromer with it is just a tad bit pricey.

 

[mschwett]

i’ve found this general “sense” of the intrusiveness of shifting to be the biggest difference between mechanical shifting and electronic. the “tap” of a finger to make it shift is tiny, and it shifts before you know it. with rare exception you don’t have to stop pedaling, you just intuitively ease up a tiny bit. if you’re standing on a way too high gear as a hill starts, then yes, you have to think about it. but it lasts a split second and you’re back into it. nothing like the grindy clicky feeling of manual shifting, especially a 1x drivetrain with the huge jumps.

on my automatic shifting IGH bike, i have to be slightly more conscious of it because if you cross the speed threshold for a shift while really hammering it, it makes a HORRIBLE crunching sound. and eventually breaks.

however, on that bike it’s super cool to just stop from any speed without regard for gear, and when you start you’re back in 1st.

 

[rayray]

I have no experience with IGH bikes, but think that anyone who rides a bike with wireless derailleurs would fall in love with them. Every shift is so quick and exact that I’m amazed every time. I can understand the concern about starting in a high gear, but it’s easy to get used to stopping in a low gear. With the Wahoo computers, and I’m sure others as well, a quick glance at the screen before stopping tells you what gear you’re in. Sure, a sudden stop may prevent that glance, but that’s so rare as to be of no concern.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thank you Dynamic for explaining the facts about Montpelier VT! I got curious and started reading about your unusual State!

 

[dynamic]

it makes a HORRIBLE crunching sound.

All 3 of mine make/made this light grinding sound when the hub is trying to quickly move a wide range of gears. Easy way to produce it is to coast downhill (bike shifts down thinking you will stop), and start hammering and this sound briefly happens as it quickly tries to get you into high gear. A lot of the time I won’t be able to hear it because of wind/tire noise. Enviolo should incorporate speed into their shifting algorithm though (not just cadence). It would prevent this nearly all the time. Why shift down significantly if the bike is still moving with zero cadence?

I wouldn’t call the sound horrible. I also wouldn’t think it’s a sign of something breaking. It just sounds like gears moving to me.

It sounds like yours has a problem?

Every shift is so quick and exact that I’m amazed every time.

the difference here is while I am climbing there is no point in time where I am in the wrong gear. Or swapping between two gears because the gap is too big. I fully believe that wireless shifting is what I would want in a chain model if within budget. This is also the kind of thing that they don’t put on casual active bikes.

For me, I hit a hill that drives the bike into the lowest gear and my cadence still drops to 50-60. Or I am on a longer climb and can’t maintain it. At that point I push the motor power up a level. If I were doing that a lot, it would still feel intrusive. And that is exactly why I sometimes forget to drop the power at the top of the hill.

These are all things I could get used to. But when used to something that has none of that, it’s a bigger step. Especially as someone who didn’t bike much because I never liked chains.

 

[rayray]

Fixed your dislike of chains. In good humor, of course.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

A question to @mschwett: Is the wireless shifting only available to drop bar bikes?

@dynamic: I might understand your aversion to the chain and manual shifting as it is probably very typical for an American who drives the automatic gearbox car. Europeans (who used to drive manual cars until the hybrids and electrics emerged), the manual shifting gives you full control on how your vehicle behaves. For one, I have never had any issues to change the derailleur gears uphill (even with the pedalling pausing); I know how to downshift when stationary. I can, however, totally understand your love for the latest, greatest, most modern, and hassle free. Only you still cannot really ride!

 

[PSm]

i agree about the vehicle disappearing. that’s really the goal. but i wonder if you’ve ridden a really light, well-maintained, waxed chain 12 or 13 speed carbon bike with electronic shifting. maybe the sirrus X will get you there. the best way i can describe it is that it’s the closest thing to flying under your own power that a human can experience. i literally cannot hear my bike over the wind and tire noise most of the time, the clipping in makes it a seamless extension of your body, and the light weight makes it disappear relative to your own much much greater mass and inertia.

probably not the right fit for your riding, but we’re actually looking for the same thing. i haven’t ridden in vermont but it’s all about the scenery and variety here, multiple “seasons” in one ride, and the range of a bicycle (vs running) lets you visit a half dozen ecosystems (urban, suburban, plains, wetlands, redwood forests, coastal scrub, beach, temperate rainforest, etc) in one ride. it’s amazing, and the more the bike goes away the better. with you on that.

Just changed to waxed chains instead of grease, and I’m shocked how much better it sounds and feels to me. It just about as quiet as my carbon belt bike, so very happy!