Happy wife, Happy Life!

Stefan Mikes said:
the manual shifting gives you full control on how your vehicle behaves.
Click to expand...

This is a very good comparison. I have owned a manual shifting convertible "sports" car. And I loved it. But I learned something important from that car: As fun as manual shifting can be (and, oh my god, it is), on normal roads (read not track or off road), the automatic is every bit as good as manual shifting. I will not claim that automatic has "caught up" to manual shifting in all situations. It has not (and honestly, can't without some seriously smart AI that doesn't exist today. the car can't know how you intend to handle a fast turn as the driver). But at the performance levels of normal U.S. road driving, yeah it has. How do I know this? I traded in that car for the exact same model, with an automatic and drove it in all the same situations. There wasn't an advantage for the type of driving I was willing to do on public roads. And my speed demon nature definitely pushed those boundaries a bit. That is the last manual car I owned. Aside: I got to drive on the autobahn and that was glorious.

I think the same thing is true of chain vs the current implementation of enviolo automatic. I would never suggest that you can get as good ultimate performance. But, at the same time, under normal active riding, the enviolo will keep you where you want to be with zero hassle. It would be immediately disqualified by weight and efficiency if the goal was ultimate performance. So it's a moot point for that. But when ultimate performance isn't the primary goal, the benefits are many.

I think more people should try them. Since a lot of bike people are N + 1 anyway, having an automatic in the fleet makes a lot of sense. But, not until the kinks get worked out. I also think there is a difference between liking/preferring manual control and real benefits to manual control. The biggest benefit I see to chain currently is potential overall gear range (over enviolo, not so much pinion or rohloff). But, the other stuff doesn't come out in day to day "active" riding on an e-bike.

@Stefan Mikes Will that warsaw dealer let you use a 5.0 IGH on an extended ride? Or rent one? You should really try it. Go take it on a nice scenic route.

rayray said:
Fixed your dislike of chains. In good humor, of course. 😊
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HA! I wish that were the reason. It would be so much simpler.
 
PSm said:
Just changed to waxed chains instead of grease, and I’m shocked how much better it sounds and feels to me. It just about as quiet as my carbon belt bike, so very happy!
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I have never come across waxed chains; what products do you use, and are there any downsides?
 
dynamic said:
I have owned a manual shifting convertible "sports" car.
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One thing you would notice is how a manual car can accelerate. Assume you are in the 5th gear and drive at the normal road speed (it would be 55 mph for you). Now, you need to quickly overtake a lorry. Just downshift to the 3rd, press the accelerator and you have the overtake done! I think an automatic ICE car should have a far more powerful engine to achieve the same (we all know how Americans love the power!) :) [Of course it does not pertain to full hybrids or electrics that do not have the gearbox].

The trick I often make on group rides is I dramatically downshift, yell "ON YER LEFT!", get on very high cadence, and temporarily leave them in the dust :) Temporarily, as there always is one or two of them who chase me sprinting and they are always winning! :) Again: all race cars I've heard of, track or offroad have manual gearboxes (am I wrong?). All race bicycles, road or offroad have manual shifting.

dynamic said:
@Stefan Mikes Will that warsaw dealer let you use a 5.0 IGH on an extended ride? Or rent one? You should really try it. Go take it on a nice scenic route.
Click to expand...
They typically do not offer very expensive e-bikes for demo, so that would probably be the 3.0 with the manual Enviolo. On the other hand... Once I asked them if I could rent an alloy Levo for a demo ride. The man said: "Unfortunately, what we can rent for the demo ride is a carbon Levo" -- to which I said -- "That's a very expensive e-bike..." -- to which he replied -- "Sir, if you can afford an alloy Levo, you would certainly find four thousand more in case you had to buy the carbon Levo" :) (Four thousand zloty meaning a thousand U.S. dollar at that time). Yes, he was right! I didn't rent the demo Levo eventually.

Anyway, I'm visiting Spec WAW this Saturday to buy an extra SL charger, so I could ask for the 5.0 IGH availability for the demo! There is a standard "Mt. Calvary" (Góra Kalwaria) bike trail that I use for my demo rides as the distance is within the battery range, and the trail involves a single steep climb.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Just downshift to the 3rd, press the accelerator and you have the overtake done!
Click to expand...

I am not sure you have driven a contemporary automatic recently. A lot of these cars now have 7-10 gears. The systems in them manage the gearing much differently than older automatics. My volvo, for example, was smart enough to downshift in those scenarios (I think they even have a name for it. Kickdown or some such). These smart transmissions are aware of what the car is capable of and optimum states in relationship to motor RPM, speed and torque. Or, put more simply: flooring it at 20 mph, 60 mph and 90 mph will produce very different responses geared toward your current situation. Automatics of the past basically static shifted at a fixed RPM. Today that is not the case. But, if the car doesn't do what you want, most offer paddle shifters in a "sport" mode as well.

On the bike, you are absolutely correct in that this would not be as clear cut on the enviolo automatic. *I Think* you would want to up your pace pedal setting. This would cause the bike to down shift until you are going the selected pace setting or above. But, on the specialized implementation, you can't just tell the bike "drop two gears". You would have to figure out what two gears would mean between your current cadence, effort... etc and translate that to a pace setting. Also, I am pretty sure the pace setting maxed out at 95 or 100 rpm on the specialized (it's called standard, faster... etc, I would have to map it). There are only like six(ish) levels. But, of course, if you could burst to that cadence at your current gearing, the bike wouldn't shift down until you dropped below the target cadence.

I have never attempted this on a bike. But more than that, the reason to do it in a car is to engage a more favorable torque curve for acceleration. As a human on a bike, the situation is a bit different. A motor has an optimal torque curve. A human doesn't. And if they do, it will almost certainly change from one day or even minute to the next. Humans have two energy systems to call on to push the pedals, aerobic and anaerobic. The state and capability of each system for that specific human at that specific time would make a huge impact on whether a "pedal harder in higher gear" or "pedal faster in lower gear" would make the most sense.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea. I simply pedal harder.

Stefan Mikes said:
so I could ask for the 5.0 IGH availability for the demo!
Click to expand...

Do it! The first time I road the automatic was actually on the serial 1 rush cty speed. Which is an enviolo/brose setup like the specialized. It was eye opening. And frankly, a bit terrifying at first. The initial feeling was "I am forgetting to do something". And then you go up and down a hill and realize you can trust it to make it harder or easier. One thing I will say: low RPM casual riding is a little ridiculous. Your bike will always be in a super low gear when pedaling casually (talking sub 50 RPM). This was one thing that initially bugged me when riding through town. Typically, I would use a middle or possibly a high gear on flat ground with a very low cadence. That gave the pedals some bite as I meander through town. That just doesn't happen on an automatic. I did adapt and no longer think about it unless I hop on a geared bike for a bit (like my blade, which I still choose to ride in higher gear/low cadence in town).
 
Thank you for correcting my views regarding the automatic gearbox. I am not really a motorist now!
Your observations re the IGH are interesting to read!
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Thank you for correcting my views regarding the automatic gearbox. I am not really a motorist now!
Your observations re the IGH are interesting to read!
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not for everyone. But technology has improved it to the point where people either simply love their manual stuff (and for the record, I get that and was that guy once) or have very specific desires (like above acceleration situation) where an automatic simply may not comply exactly as desired.

As always I think everyone should try it. Also for the record: I have been looking at electronic shifting bikes since earlier when it was suggested. The "cheapest" model specialized sells is a Roubaix and it's US $8,000 for a drop bar normal bike. The only flat bar is an s-works turbo levo. Also a non-starter even on "sale" of $12K+. Which leads me to the turbo creo SL expert evo. If I ever feel like drop bars are a thing, that would probably be the bike. It is also one of the few carbon bikes that have a high enough weight limit for me. Most are 240 LB (like the Roubaix, which rules it out).

@mschwett Got a question on the creo SL evo. Why do they even make a drop bar evo with dropper seat? I get the tires. But do people really ride such that a dropper seat is valuable on a drop bar bike? (That said, the bike I road with a dropper seat (diverge evo) was nice simply for stopping at lights and stop signs... so I guess there is that). I just don't see gravel/fire trails where a creo evo might shine needing a dropper seat. Am I missing something?
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Read this
www.cyclingweekly.com

Drop it like it's hot! The best dropper seatposts and levers for gravel bikes

Do you want more speed, control and awesomeness from your gravel bike? Then you want a dropper seatpost. Here's our pick of the best posts and levers your money can buy (whatever your budget)
www.cyclingweekly.com www.cyclingweekly.com
Click to expand...

So basically weight shifting at speed instead of for technical trail stuff. So, that's a no for me. I suspect I would be better off with a kinect suspension post there on my roads. I am not ready for drop bars though. Even just the hoods make me crazy.

On another aside: Pathfinder tires have easily been my favorites on all these bikes. Grip in a tight turn, smooth riding on the straights. Low noise, big comfort (at least on the thicker 2.3" models). Really a nice balance for a multi-surface active rider. Whatever bike I end up on will likely get pathfinders or something that does a similar job. Really nice.

Gotta go pickup the kids.
 
We're deep into personal preference territory here.

We have an SUV and a sportwagon (marketing-speak for modern station wagon) with 8-speed automatics and an old roaster with a 6-speed manual. The roadster's huge convertible advantage and harsh ride aside, I generally prefer the manual for the control and sense of engagement (in the driving process) it provides. I find good torque and power curve management through proper gear selection very satisfying — even in daily driving.

Both of our automatics have sequential manual modes (no skipping gears). But without the clutch-related footwork, it's just not the same driving experience.

I like my manually-shifted bike transmission (derailleur) for all the same reasons. Per Wilson and Schmidt, 2020, Bicycling Science, 4th ed., the human body does have a reproducible power-cadence curve resembling an inverted parabola* with its apex above but near the rider's preferred cadence. The curve is different for every rider and can change slowly with training, but it doesn't vary much day to day.

Per Wilson and Schmidt, the optimal shifting strategy — in performance riding, at least — is to shift when the resulting gear will put you at the same distance from the apex on the other side. So if a upshift drops your cadence by 20 RPM, you should do it about 10 RPM past the apex so as to end about 10 RPM before the apex.

As a casual rider out for some exercise well short of a race, I try to implement this technique as best I can. Feels right and seems to work quite well. Also keeps my finicky knees in their happy place cadence-wise.

Just my personal preference, but I don't see myself handing over this kind of control to an automatic bike transmission operating as a black box.

* DC electric motors of all kinds also have power-shaft speed curves of this general shape.
 
Last edited:
Jeremy McCreary said:
We're deep into person preference territory here.

We have an SUV and a sportwagon (marketing-speak for modern station wagon) with 8-speed automatics and an old roaster with a 6-speed manual. The roadster's huge convertible advantage and harsh ride aside, I generally prefer the manual for the control and sense of engagement (in the driving process) it provides. I find good torque and power curve management through proper gear selection very satisfying — even in daily driving.

Both of our automatics have sequential manual modes (no skipping gears). But without the clutch-related footwork, it's just not the same driving experience.

I like my manually-shifted bike transmission (derailleur) for all the same reasons. Per Wilson and Schmidt, 2020, Bicycling Science, 4th ed., the human body does have a reproducible power-cadence curve resembling an inverted parabola* with its apex above but near the rider's preferred cadence. The curve is different for every rider and can change slowly with training, but it doesn't vary much day to day.

Per Wilson and Schmidt, the optimal shifting strategy — in performance riding, at least — is to shift when the resulting gear will put you at the same distance from the apex on the other side. So if a upshift drops your cadence by 20 RPM, you should do it about 10 RPM past the apex so as to end about 10 RPM before the apex.

As a casual rider out for some exercise well short of a race, I try to implement this technique as best I can. Feels right and seems to work quite well. Also keeps my finicky knees in their happy place cadence-wise.

I don't see myself handing over this kind of control to an automatic bike transmission operating as a black box.

* DC electric motors of all kinds also have power-shaft speed curves of this general shape.
Click to expand...
Jeremy, quit blabbin, get on your bike and get over to Tip Top Meats for some Teriyaki Jerky ;)
 
dynamic said:
Yeah, it's not for everyone. But technology has improved it to the point where people either simply love their manual stuff (and for the record, I get that and was that guy once) or have very specific desires (like above acceleration situation) where an automatic simply may not comply exactly as desired.

As always I think everyone should try it. Also for the record: I have been looking at electronic shifting bikes since earlier when it was suggested. The "cheapest" model specialized sells is a Roubaix and it's US $8,000 for a drop bar normal bike. The only flat bar is an s-works turbo levo. Also a non-starter even on "sale" of $12K+. Which leads me to the turbo creo SL expert evo. If I ever feel like drop bars are a thing, that would probably be the bike. It is also one of the few carbon bikes that have a high enough weight limit for me. Most are 240 LB (like the Roubaix, which rules it out).

@mschwett Got a question on the creo SL evo. Why do they even make a drop bar evo with dropper seat? I get the tires. But do people really ride such that a dropper seat is valuable on a drop bar bike? (That said, the bike I road with a dropper seat (diverge evo) was nice simply for stopping at lights and stop signs... so I guess there is that). I just don't see gravel/fire trails where a creo evo might shine needing a dropper seat. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

the gravel community is sort of mixed on droppers. personally i don’t like them.

i have 42mm knobbies for my creo, with 1:1 gearing and that and the future shock it goes way beyond “gravel” - works great on most single track other than really technical downhill stuff, rock gardens, etc, which i have no interest in. lots of people ride drop bar bikes in these situations. for those who like droppers, it allows you to get the seat out of the way of your, uh, private parts, and then you can pretty significantly change the weight distribution and balance of the bike by moving your body way down, or back, or forward. so it’s really about positional flexibility. i haven’t found that necessary or useful but i’m sure a more skilled off road rider would have a different view.

the creo is closer to a diverge than a tarmac or aethos. skilled riders on a drop bar diverge absolutely crush pretty technical single track. carbon everything plus future shock and 42mm tubeless tires at 30psi… pretty flexible platform.
 
Have you tried Trek's IGH, the Allant+ 9?

AllantPlus9_23_36936_A_Portrait.jpg
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
Just my personal preference, but I don't see myself handing over this kind of control to an automatic bike transmission operating as a black box.
Click to expand...

Yet you own automatic vehicles alongside your manual. There is no denying the "fun" engagement of manual (at least not to me). But it's still not the only thing you drive. I suspect people will be more surprised when they try an automatic IGH bike than not. The peaceful bliss alone is striking.

Here's another one: My last few cars have had an automatic driving mode that works well on highways (think tesla like automatic pilot). That crosses a line even for me. But the feeling of having the car literally drive itself is a different type of experience. The automatic experience on a bike is similarly so strikingly different that even when you prefer control, there are times when it is just amazing. I also genuinely think most people would find an automatic IGH will keep them in the "right gear" more often than their shifting habits do. Speaking on behalf of more normal riders, not performance oriented athletes with that comment.

I simply advocate trying things. You may be surprised. These are, admittedly, hard to try without buying them though.

I am super eager to try electronic shifting now. I need to know how it really compares *for me*. No chance my store has such a bike though.
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
Per Wilson and Schmidt, 2020, Bicycling Science, 4th ed., the human body does have a reproducible power-cadence curve resembling an inverted parabola
Click to expand...

Just want to comment on this separately. Because I find it intellectually interesting.

Yes, but unlike motors, the value of the energy sources that drive the curve change from minute to minute. A motor will have essentially a fixed input energy source. The human body's balance of energy sources between the anaerobic and aerobic systems change. I think this is better stated that there is a power curve for an individual at the same energy levels. But an exhausted biker does not have the same curve as the fresh biker. I honestly can't see how they could. Does that make sense?

IT's been a while since I read that though. So, grain of salt and all of that.
 
dynamic said:
Yet you own automatic vehicles alongside your manual. There is no denying the "fun" engagement of manual (at least not to me). But it's still not the only thing you drive. I suspect people will be more surprised when they try an automatic IGH bike than not. The peaceful bliss alone is striking.

Here's another one: My last few cars have had an automatic driving mode that works well on highways (think tesla like automatic pilot). That crosses a line even for me. But the feeling of having the car literally drive itself is a different type of experience. The automatic experience on a bike is similarly so strikingly different that even when you prefer control, there are times when it is just amazing. I also genuinely think most people would find an automatic IGH will keep them in the "right gear" more often than their shifting habits do. Speaking on behalf of more normal riders, not performance oriented athletes with that comment.

I simply advocate trying things. You may be surprised. These are, admittedly, hard to try without buying them though.

I am super eager to try electronic shifting now. I need to know how it really compares *for me*. No chance my store has such a bike though.
Click to expand...
it’s an interesting debate.

my automatic IGH is very simple. speed based only. when i shift myself, it’s definitely based on an intuitive combination of speed and load and fatigue. not sure how an auto IGH would take that into account. would be interesting to try, but not too excited about the weight and drag.

as for cars … never owned an automatic, never will. true manual with a clutch, or electric.
 
mschwett said:
there are fully electronic group sets of various types for 1x mountain bikes with flat bars. SRAM version is fully wireless not sure if shimano has updated their electronic MTB sets yet, they may still be wired electronic. also available on bikes like the lemond prolog.

View attachment 153937
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Thank you, Mark!
After some thinking, I'll say "Pass". My mechanical shifting works OK. However exciting the electronic shifting sounds, I am frustrated with the growing number of devices that need to be charged before each ride. I could not be caught with the discharged derailleur battery on my June gravel ultramarathon, or in the mountains!
 
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