Happy wife, Happy Life!

[Taylor57]

it’s an interesting debate.

my automatic IGH is very simple. speed based only. when i shift myself, it’s definitely based on an intuitive combination of speed and load and fatigue. not sure how an auto IGH would take that into account. would be interesting to try, but not too excited about the weight and drag.

as for cars … never owned an automatic, never will. true manual with a clutch, or electric.

Yeah those automatic transmissions on cars are something to definitely avoid.

 

[mschwett]

Thank you, Mark!
After some thinking, I'll say "Pass". My mechanical shifting works OK. However exciting the electronic shifting sounds, I am frustrated with the growing number of devices that need to be charged before each ride. I could not be caught with the discharged derailleur battery on my June gravel ultramarathon, or in the mountains!

it certainly can happen! shimano’s latest lasts for months and months, or thousands of miles, which almost makes it worse because you simply forget it has to be charged. the battery life is very, very long.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the battery life is very, very long.

In the shifter yes. Not in the derailleur. Why is the derailleur battery rechargeable in the first place?
Did you see that recent video of a road pro racer who attempted replacing the electronic derailleur battery on the ride and failed?

 

[mschwett]

In the shifter yes. Not in the derailleur. Why is the derailleur battery rechargeable in the first place?
Did you see that recent video of a road pro racer who attempted replacing the electronic derailleur battery on the ride and failed?

no - i’m referring to the derailleur in the shimano system. it’s actually in the seat tube. lasts thousands of miles.

making the shifters fully wireless and the derailleur wired to a frame battery is the best of all worlds IMO - no wires going through the bars and head tube, but very long battery life and a light, small, sleek derailleur.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So many interesting topics have been brought up while I was asleep!

The dropper seat post in a gravel bike: Good for pros or people focusing on technical singletrack, not needed for most of the riders. Owned one in an e-MTB and the only meaningful use was dropping the seat on my scary downhill ride on the rocks (that ride damaged my expensive camera!) I spent the whole ride standing on the pedals with my butt far behind the seat, and I was fighting for my dear life! The only other good use of a dropper seat-post I could mention is sharing a bike with a person of a different body height (provided the frame standover height is good for the other rider).

The derailleur/chain vs carbon belt/automatic IGH:

• The latter is making the e-bike heavier; now I am all for making my e-bikes more lightweight (within a reason)
• I shudder to think what would happen were I to remove the rear wheel for the repair on the belt/IGH system
• Lack of control during automatic shifting
• IGH being as "unsporty" as it only might be I would be laughed upon by my buddies!

Not sure how well the Automatiq handles the rider's cadence. My favourite is 77, and I pedal at 85 if I feel I need more acceleration, or it is a climbing. The stock cassette on my Vado SL was 11-42T, 10-speed. It had a terrible gap between the gears I use the most. Following advice from a Forum member, I resigned from the granny gear to get me a 11-36T cassette with nicely spread gears. It was making me mad to go from slow to high cadence before!

@ColinUK: It looks the new Allant+ is also equipped with the Bosch Smart System. It would be interesting to see how well Trek has implemented the IGH, and if any kind of issues could be handled by an average LBS. (Because I'm sure @dynamic would get that e-bike screwed up from his LBS in Montpelier VT for sure, haha!)

@mschwett: Thank you for explaining the Shimano electronic shifting. Now I only think what trouble it would be to install the seat-tube battery and the respective power cable of any of the e-bikes I own! (Provided Shimano has updated their system for the 1x MTBs!)

@dynamic: You said Kinekt suspension seat post. If I'm not wrong, your Vado is equipped with some post of that kind, which is certainly far from being ideal. Bear in mind that because of the sleeve of your existing seat-post, the seat-post tube is in big diameter. You would need a shim to be able to install the Kinekt 2.1 on your e-bike!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Yet you own automatic vehicles alongside your manual. There is no denying the "fun" engagement of manual (at least not to me). But it's still not the only thing you drive. I suspect people will be more surprised when they try an automatic IGH bike than not. The peaceful bliss alone is striking.

Here's another one: My last few cars have had an automatic driving mode that works well on highways (think tesla like automatic pilot). That crosses a line even for me. But the feeling of having the car literally drive itself is a different type of experience. The automatic experience on a bike is similarly so strikingly different that even when you prefer control, there are times when it is just amazing. I also genuinely think most people would find an automatic IGH will keep them in the "right gear" more often than their shifting habits do. Speaking on behalf of more normal riders, not performance oriented athletes with that comment.

I simply advocate trying things. You may be surprised. These are, admittedly, hard to try without buying them though.

I am super eager to try electronic shifting now. I need to know how it really compares *for me*. No chance my store has such a bike though.

I'd certainly be willing to test an automatic transmission for a 2nd bike if that ever becomes affordable. For now, I have just one bike, and I like that the shifting's manual.

 

[PSm]

I have never come across waxed chains; what products do you use, and are there any downsides?

There’s a thread about chain lubes https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-chain-lubes.26667/

I’m using Maxima chain wax, and only have a few rides in, but so far it’s awesome. I’m not willing to do the more complex waxing technique (removing chain, heating up wax, and soaking) , and instead only cleaned the chain first, and then sprayed the wax on and let sit overnight. Not aware of downsides, only upsides. Might also be more resistant from attracting dirt and dust, which seemed to be an instant problem with my oiled/greased chains.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There’s a thread about chain lubes https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-chain-lubes.26667/

I’m using Maxima chain wax, and only have a few rides in, but so far it’s awesome. I’m not willing to do the more complex waxing technique (removing chain, heating up wax, and soaking) , and instead only cleaned the chain first, and then sprayed the wax on and let sit overnight. Not aware of downsides, only upsides. Might also be more resistant from attracting dirt and dust, which seemed to be an instant problem with my oiled/greased chains.

The next experience would be removing the old wax after some time... Good luck!

 

[kahn]

There’s a thread about chain lubes https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-chain-lubes.26667/

I’m using Maxima chain wax, and only have a few rides in, but so far it’s awesome. I’m not willing to do the more complex waxing technique (removing chain, heating up wax, and soaking) , and instead only cleaned the chain first, and then sprayed the wax on and let sit overnight. Not aware of downsides, only upsides. Might also be more resistant from attracting dirt and dust, which seemed to be an instant problem with my oiled/greased chains.

Is that for bicycles? The videos on Amazon show motorcycles

 

[Rexlion]

If your rides don't require power assist, try out some regular bikes.

I am partial to the crank-forward design, such as Electra Townie.

 

[JayUK]

There’s a thread about chain lubes https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-chain-lubes.26667/

I’m using Maxima chain wax, and only have a few rides in, but so far it’s awesome. I’m not willing to do the more complex waxing technique (removing chain, heating up wax, and soaking) , and instead only cleaned the chain first, and then sprayed the wax on and let sit overnight. Not aware of downsides, only upsides. Might also be more resistant from attracting dirt and dust, which seemed to be an instant problem with my oiled/greased chains.

Thanks I will have a look. My worry is that wax is water soluble so may not be ideal for the UK's weather.

 

[JayUK]

I have not. I don’t even see it on trek’s site. Is it available in the US?

No idea, I am sure it will be available in the US soon.

They have two models, a cross bar and a girly low step version !

Allant+ 9 - Trek Bikes (GB)

Discover your next great ride with Allant+ 9. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

Allant+ 9 Lowstep - Trek Bikes (GB)

Discover your next great ride with Allant+ 9 Lowstep. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

The spec if not as good as the Vado 5.0 but it could be an option for you.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

They have two models, a cross bar and a girly low step version !

Allant+ 9 - Trek Bikes (GB)

Discover your next great ride with Allant+ 9. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

Allant+ 9 Lowstep - Trek Bikes (GB)

Discover your next great ride with Allant+ 9 Lowstep. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

Did you notice Trek has used an inferior IGH, that is, Enviolo Trekking on the Allant+? Vado 5.0 IGH uses Enviolo Automatiq Heavy Duty. Trek does everything to cut corners...

Colin: If the LBS of Dynamic could not deliver a single issue free e-bike to him, I gladly doubt they could manage the Allant+ 9, were it available in the U.S, heheheh

The reason Allant+ 9 is not in the United States yet is probably this: Trek e-bikes are Bosch E-Bikes. Any Bosch E-Bike motor made is destined to a different world region. That is, Euro Bosch E-Bike motors are set for Europe/UK, and nobody can change the speed limit set there, which is 25 km/h or 15.5 mph. If Bosch E-Bike wanted the motor to be used as Class 1 in the U.S. (20 mph) or Canada (32 km/h), they need to make a batch of compatible motors for the North American market. But there is more. Americans want to ride Class 3 e-bikes (28 mph). Bosch E-Bike has no 28 mph or 45 km/h Smart System motor yet, especially as Bosch (a strict German company) needs to make such a motor as an S-Pedelec one, with all bells & whistles expected from the Euro L1e-B moped, and have it Type Approved. Then Trek has to design the Allant+9S as the L1e-B and Type Approve it. It is not going to happen soon!

On contrary, Specialized using Brose or Mahle motors just gives a sh*t, and programs the speed limit by software for any world region, using the same motors worldwide. (The only exception is the 45 km/h Vado 6.0, currently available only in Europe and pretty obsolete now -- I own one).

 

[JayUK]

Did you notice Trek has used an inferior IGH, that is, Enviolo Trekking on the Allant+? Vado 5.0 IGH uses Enviolo Automatiq Heavy Duty. Trek does everything to cut corners...

Colin: If the LBS of Dynamic could not deliver a single issue free e-bike to him, I gladly doubt they could manage the Allant+ 9, were it available in the U.S, heheheh

The reason Allant+ 9 is not in the United States yet is probably this: Trek e-bikes are Bosch E-Bikes. Any Bosch E-Bike motor made is destined to a different world region. That is, Euro Bosch E-Bike motors are set for Europe/UK, and nobody can change the speed limit set there, which is 25 km/h or 15.5 mph. If Bosch E-Bike wanted the motor to be used as Class 1 in the U.S. (20 mph) or Canada (32 km/h), they need to make a batch of compatible motors for the North American market. But there is more. Americans want to ride Class 3 e-bikes (28 mph). Bosch E-Bike has no 28 mph or 45 km/h Smart System motor yet, especially as Bosch (a strict German company) needs to make such a motor as an S-Pedelec one, with all bells & whistles expected from the Euro L1e-B moped, and have it Type Approved. Then Trek has to design the Allant+9S as the L1e-B. It is not going to happen soon!

On contrary, Specialized using Brose or Mahle motors just gives a sh*t, and programs the speed limit by software for any world region, using the same motors worldwide. (The only exception is the 45 km/h Vado 6.0, currently made only for Europe and pretty obsolete now).

I would never buy a Trek, I tried the Allant+ 9 and found the Vado better in every way.

Totally agree with you on the OP's LBS, let's hope he moves on from them

 

[dynamic]

I am frustrated with the growing number of devices that need to be charged before each ride.

Truth. Just want to point out that your big vado may be able to charge the wahoo from the usb port on it. Never needs to leave the bike. At least the mastermind models can do that.

I do think that electronic shifting on an e-bike needs to be wired in or it is a serious missed opportunity.

Having to charge the light, the radar and the garmin for the blade is a real drag. One of the arguments for specialized fully integrated design.

 

[dynamic]

moves on from them

There will be no moving on from them for reasons stated earlier. And this still isn’t them. Specialized themselves can’t diagnose and fix it either. Remember, the shop is only doing what specialized support is telling them to do. What specialized support is telling them to do isn’t fixing the problem. Why is blaming the LBS even still a primary possibility?

Right now, even if the LBS is still missing a step as part of a wiring harness replacement that would fix this issue, and that step is unique to IGH bikes ( remember all aspects of the bike is working fine outside of IGH integration) then specialized absolutely needs to check the step by step process with the LBS.

As an engineer, my bet is one of two things: 1) there is a recalibration for communication when certain maintenance tasks are done that is not getting done. 2) given this bike came like this, some part on it needs to be IGH specific and mistakenly got the chain version. This fits really well based on the bike coming from the factory not working with the crank arms installed backwards. It also fits really well with other experiences reported on here with this issue.

 

[JayUK]

There will be no moving on from them for reasons stated earlier. And this still isn’t them. Specialized themselves can’t diagnose and fix it either. Remember, the shop is only doing what specialized support is telling them to do. What specialized support is telling them to do isn’t fixing the problem. Why is blaming the LBS even still a primary possibility?

Right now, even if the LBS is still missing a step as part of a wiring harness replacement that would fix this issue, and that step is unique to IGH bikes ( remember all aspects of the bike is working fine outside of IGH integration) then specialized absolutely needs to check the step by step process with the LBS.

As an engineer, my bet is one of two things: 1) there is a recalibration for communication when certain maintenance tasks are done that is not getting done. 2) given this bike came like this, some part on it needs to be IGH specific and mistakenly got the chain version. This fits really well based on the bike coming from the factory not working with the crank arms installed backwards. It also fits really well with other experiences reported on here with this issue.

Are you sure you actually got a brand new bike shipped from Specialized to your LBS? Maybe the LBS has sold you a customer return. The reversed cranks are a red flag, as I doubt this could happen in a modern production line environment.

P.S I work within the automotive industry and visit many production lines around the world.

 

[JayUK]

I have just spoken to my LBS and asked roughly how many Vado IGH bikes he has sold. He said they have sold around 15, and there has not been a single issue with any of them. He also mentioned that they re-torque all bolts as they are never 100% correct from the factory. I have known the guy for 20 years so trust what he says.

Maybe the US distributor is messing with them prior to dispatch for some reason.

 

[dynamic]

Maybe the LBS has sold you a customer return.

The LBS didn't sell me anything. I went on to specialized site and clicked order and paid and sent to LBS. I then got a shipping and tracking info. So, the only way that happened is if the LBS swapped bikes (not entertaining this). Mileage was sub 3 when I got it. For a bike my LBS explicitly does not carry. This scenario isn't even a possibility as an accident where they swapped two customers identical bikes. Nope, sorry, specialized sent the bike broken and built wrong. FYI: I am not ruling out that the LBS did something to trigger the d/c of IGH and Mastermind (I am sure they didn't do the crank arm thing), but if that did happen Specialized should have a simple fix from support. I also can't understand what that could possibly be from a physical perspective. And if this is software, Specialized should have returned with "Did you do the enviolo/mastermind connection step? Here is what it is."

Since none of us have seen the specialized factory/assembly we can only guess. But this bike showed up built wrong *AND* specialized support is just atrocious. I say that as a software engineer. If a step I suggest doesn't fix something that should have done it there are two explanations 1) the step was done wrong which means verifying exactly what was done 2) the problem isn't what I think it is, which means engaging a much deeper level of support.

People who want to blame the LBS, fine. Have at it. But you guys are the Karens of tech support customers. This LBS has never seen this problem, or this specific bike model. You are asking an LBS to be competent at model they have never even touched before and a problem they have never seen. They are doing what Specialized tells them to do. In this case replace a wiring harness. Nothing more, nothing less. If that "replace the wiring harness" has an additional step of "re-connect the software" then Specialized needs to be explicit and verify.

And just for more transparency, the shop manager often shows me his exact e-mail communication with specialized support. The best case for blaming the LBS in this situation is they don't know something that it isn't reasonable to expect them to know. And I am simply not going to be that guy. I am the tech guy that helps people learn what they don't know, no matter how basic (Have you met my mother? ). But, at this time, Specialized isn't making that easy.

 

[dynamic]

He also mentioned that they re-torque all bolts as they are never 100% correct from the factory.

The shop manager here said exactly the same thing. I have watched him do it to mine and others bikes on many occasions.

15 IGH 5.0 or 3 and 4 included. Remember, these problems may exclusively be 5.0 problems.