Haibike blown away by Easy Motion

[shaunmed]

I have a Haibike 29er and my GF has a Easy Motion Evo 27.5, both 2015.

She blows me away going UP hill. WTF?

The motors have virtually exact same secs/ratings. What's going on?

Haibike: 36 volt / 11 ah / 396 wh, 350 watt / 550 watt, 60 Newton meters
Easy Motion: 36 volt / 11.6 ah / 417.6 wh, 350 watt / 548 watt, 37 Newton meters

Should mention this is mostly evident going UP-hill.

 

[RoyL]

Err, you are heavier plus she is fitter ?? !!

 

[shaunmed]

Err, you are heavier plus she is fitter ?? !!

Err.. No im 150 lbs and 5'11" and my bike weighs less.

 

[JoePah]

Your bike is smarter than you.. Her winning the uphill climb is good for you ;0

 

[Mike Smith]

Looks like the difference may be related to a couple of things. First unless your lighter weight bike offsets your difference in body weight your GF has the advantage in overall weight. Second, her geared rear hub motor vs your middrive may be in her advantage as well, especially if you are both at the same fitness level. Try switching bikes and see who can get up the hills faster. If it is you on her bike than the bike is the difference. If she beats you up hills on your bike than she is just in better shape and maybe it's time to hit the gym more often, lol, just kidding. Don't discount those geared hub motors, as they have a lot of torque.

 

[Nirmala]

Both of your speeds would also be affected by what gear you are in, but that would be especially true of the mid drive Haibike. Mid-drives are known for their climbing ability not because they get up the hill faster, but because you can use a lower gear and thereby the motor is working more efficiently and is less strained. This means you can climb a very steep hill without the motor overheating or bogging down at low rpm. You may not be going fast just like when you are moving slowly when you pedal up a hill in a low gear, but you will make it. In contrast, if a rear hub motor's rpms slow way down because you are going very slowly up a very steep hill, the motor's efficiency drops. It will be producing more heat and less motion and may even trip the overheating protection circuit, in which case you need to stop and let it cool off.

 

[shaunmed]

Looks like the difference may be related to a couple of things. First unless your lighter weight bike offsets your difference in body weight your GF has the advantage in overall weight. Second, her geared rear hub motor vs your middrive may be in her advantage as well, especially if you are both at the same fitness level. Try switching bikes and see who can get up the hills faster. If it is you on her bike than the bike is the difference. If she beats you up hills on your bike than she is just in better shape and maybe it's time to hit the gym more often, lol, just kidding. Don't discount those geared hub motors, as they have a lot of torque.

I am more fit than her and if we change bikes I beat her up the hill so it is DEF the bike.

My question and comment is that I haven't heard a good reason for why.

In so far as the torque, the Haibike has nearly 2x.

My guess is that the Easy Motion hub motor puts out MAX power nearly all the time while ascending hills whereas the Bosch system is constantly changing power output due to its many sensors (cadence, torque, etc).

There just doesnt seem to be a reliable way to figure how an ebike will perform based on numbers. If there was then the answer would be obvious.

 

[Nirmala]

It sounds like the motor on her bike is still spinning pretty fast on that particular hill and so is putting out maximum power as you suggest. Have you tried shifting to a higher gear to let the motor on your bike work harder? Of course you will have to pedal harder also, but that might help also to trigger the torque sensor.

When you ride her bike, does it seem like you are working harder on the same hill? Or are you working just as hard on your own bike on that particular hill?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I am more fit than her and if we change bikes I beat her up the hill so it is DEF the bike.

My question and comment is that I haven't heard a good reason for why.

In so far as the torque, the Haibike has nearly 2x.

My guess is that the Easy Motion hub motor puts out MAX power nearly all the time while ascending hills whereas the Bosch system is constantly changing power output due to its many sensors (cadence, torque, etc).

There just doesnt seem to be a reliable way to figure how an ebike will perform based on numbers. If there was then the answer would be obvious.

First of all,
You need to be in the right gear to extract maximum torque from a mid-drive.

second,
mid-drives, especially, Bosch is very conservative when it comes to power output. They simply don't over exert. All this talk and hype about efficiency is just that. They don't put out more power.

Hill climbing,
Mid-drives, if you're in right gear, you can climb a really steep hill from dead stop and this can be clearly seen in an off-road setting.

Mid-drives are NOT mind blowingly efficient. For 90% of people like us, who ride on paved roads, hub motors make more sense because they are so much cheaper and easier to replace.

 

[Jim123]

Volkswagen syndrome might be happening, false stats being advertised. I am just guessing but from the E.U. laws I would say the light Haibike could even be maxed at 350 or 250 watts.

 

[MLB]

I've been telling naysayers that my hub drive Stromer (sold) and Falco bikes are both significantly faster than my Haibike (FS RX) midrive.

Unless you are climbing a pretty steep hill where the midrives torque comes to the fore, a hub motor is just faster. (regulated motors)
Where it's steep enough, THEN the hub motor shines and shows it grunt, where a direct drive hub motor is straining and getting hot.
For street riding, unless you're San Francisco like hills, a hub motor is going to be faster. (given comp specs)

 

[Cameron Newland]

I've been telling naysayers that my hub drive Stromer (sold) and Falco bikes are both significantly faster than my Haibike (FS RX) midrive.

Unless you are climbing a pretty steep hill where the midrives torque comes to the fore, a hub motor is just faster. (regulated motors)
Where it's steep enough, THEN the hub motor shines and shows it grunt, where a direct drive hub motor is straining and getting hot.
For street riding, unless you're San Francisco like hills, a hub motor is going to be faster. (given comp specs)

Agreed. I rode a 350W Haibike FS up some 5-10% grade San Francisco hills near EBIKELANE's downtown retail location and can report that my 500W direct-drive rear hub motor e-bike climbs much faster than the Bosch mid-drive. My DD hub motor is pretty much useless when attempting to climb 20%+ grades, though.

 

[Steve Ryu]

I have a Haibike 29er and my GF has a Easy Motion Evo 27.5, both 2015.

She blows me away going UP hill. WTF?

The motors have virtually exact same secs/ratings. What's going on?

Haibike: 36 volt / 11 ah / 396 wh, 350 watt / 550 watt, 60 Newton meters
Easy Motion: 36 volt / 11.6 ah / 417.6 wh, 350 watt / 548 watt, 37 Newton meters

Should mention this is mostly evident going UP-hill.

Mid drive motors work a little differently. I tell most folks,pre-fab mid-drive motors have never really been about speed nor acceleration, but really about torque under load. Under heavy load, I guarantee that Bosch will be easier to pedal up a steep hill vs rear hub.

With a lot of rear hub motors, you lose the feeling of being in the now when pedaling, meaning, with a Bosch, when you pedal, the motor turns on and off, accelerates and decelerates with the amount of torque you're putting into the pedals +cadence almost instantaneously, very useful for technical riding. With rear hub motors, somewhere around 12-15 mph, you lose start losing the feeling of synergy with the bike, meaning there is a delay in reaction from the drive system, the motor is engaged for half a beat longer than you pedal or take half a beat longer to engage once you start pedaling.

Since I'm a bigger guy, with a rolling start, I can beat most Haibikes on smaller hills, but climbing for 50 yards is a different story.

 

[MLB]

it's the lack of a torque sensor (or a good one) that gives that feeling, not the hub motor. The good ones, set correctly (they are adjustable) feel almost as good as Bosche.
I had a Stromer ST1 and it felt really artifically fast ( it WAS!) when I got it. Tweaking some settings to slow down the start of assist and how strong it came on (from setting 70 to 30) changed the bike entirely and made it much more of a "bike" experience like the Hai.

I'm 225lbs and pretty strong. We are in the flat land of the midwest with very few hills.
I've only felt tiny examples (second at a time) of the Haibikes climbing torque while climbing out of drainage ditches, but it's real serious feeling power when its there. Hoping to do some real off roading soon and experience more of it.
Otherwise, on the street there's no advantage to a mid drive, and considerably more wear and tear on the drivetrain. even at my size, even on moderate hills the hub bikes are faster,

 

[MLB]

I am more fit than her and if we change bikes I beat her up the hill so it is DEF the bike.

My question and comment is that I haven't heard a good reason for why.

In so far as the torque, the Haibike has nearly 2x.

My guess is that the Easy Motion hub motor puts out MAX power nearly all the time while ascending hills whereas the Bosch system is constantly changing power output due to its many sensors (cadence, torque, etc).

There just doesnt seem to be a reliable way to figure how an ebike will perform based on numbers. If there was then the answer would be obvious.

Doesn't the EM have adjustable power settings? You turn the Haibike to Turbo for max power, compare Max setting to Max setting.
You also likely have gearing differences. Lots of different factors affect speed. Crank length on regular bikes can affect. etc
A 500w hub motor may peak at 750w for bursts, the motor spinning faster. The hub motor stays at a more constant rpm and doens't give that burst of speed that takes a lot of juice.(and heats the motor up)
Consequently, my Haibike has much longer range (50-60) with me peddling all the time, than either of the Hub motor bikes (30-35, 1 is a trike) with comparable 36v battery.

 

[Steve Ryu]

it's the lack of a torque sensor (or a good one) that gives that feeling, not the hub motor. The good ones, set correctly (they are adjustable) feel almost as good as Bosche.
I'm 225lbs and pretty strong. We are in the flat land of the midwest with very few hills.
I've only felt tiny examples (second at a time) of the Haibikes climbing torque while climbing out of drainage ditches, but it's real serious feeling power when its there. Hoping to do some real off roading soon and experience more of it.
Otherwise, on the street there's no advantage to a mid drive and considerably more wear and tear on the drivetrain.

I still have yet to feel a good torque sensor and i've ridden many bikes across many lines. I've even played around with different torque sensors and changing crank positions as many bb torque sensors have optimal crank positions, to no avail. So far i'm a big proponent of the Yamaha system. Feels very in the now.

 

[dimitri brooks]

I still have yet to feel a good torque sensor and i've ridden many bikes across many lines. I've even played around with different torque sensors and changing crank positions as many bb torque sensors have optimal crank positions, to no avail. So far i'm a big proponent of the Yamaha system. Feels very in the now.

Have you tried BionX bikes?

 

[Chandlee EBS]

Yeah. We have huge hills here and most people do think that the EMs climb better. The three chainrings make a huge difference.

 

[MLB]

I still have yet to feel a good torque sensor and i've ridden many bikes across many lines. I've even played around with different torque sensors and changing crank positions as many bb torque sensors have optimal crank positions, to no avail. So far i'm a big proponent of the Yamaha system. Feels very in the now.

I'm not sure what you're looking for, but both of mine are as spot on tuned to me and my strengths and rides as they could be. What exactly isn't "good" to you?

 

[Steve Ryu]

I'm not sure what you're looking for, but both of mine are as spot on tuned to me and my strengths and rides as they could be. What exactly isn't "good" to you?

There's a certain feeling of numbness that occurs right around 12-15 mph where the bike starts feeling like it's cadence based and torque sensing isn't instantaneous. With mid, the same torque sensitivity I get a low RPM's I can maintain at higher speeds, esp with Yamaha. Of course that's just my observations and my preference when it comes down to it.