Go SwissDrive is gone
- Thread starter E-Wheels
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JRA
Well-Known Member
"The company only vaguely mentions a reason for the Go SwissDrive liquidations. It says “The further development of the peripherals (connectivity), which the customer expects more and more in the premium segment, raises an increasingly higher effort. In a price-sensitive market these investments are difficult to recoup in the long term”. For industry experts, however, it seems clear that the profitability was probably too low and the competition from mid-motor suppliers too fierce."
8 years was a pretty good run but I think this quote says it all about their ceasing production. Connectivity via proprietary protocols are expensive to develop and maintain and seem to be becoming more and more a requirement, note the fact that even Alexa is coming on board, with today's expectation of electronic gadgetry.
Not that all hub drives are going to be pushed out of the market due to this but with Go SwissDrive and BionX's departure it does seem like the hub market, outside of China based companies like MAC, Bafang, Crystalite, is not a viable business structure any more.
8 years was a pretty good run but I think this quote says it all about their ceasing production. Connectivity via proprietary protocols are expensive to develop and maintain and seem to be becoming more and more a requirement, note the fact that even Alexa is coming on board, with today's expectation of electronic gadgetry.
Not that all hub drives are going to be pushed out of the market due to this but with Go SwissDrive and BionX's departure it does seem like the hub market, outside of China based companies like MAC, Bafang, Crystalite, is not a viable business structure any more.
harryS
Well-Known Member
Probably an excellent motor, but tough for a direct drive motor to compete in the light weight market dominated by small geared motors, especially if the country restricts speed. The advantage of a reversing option only makes sense for heavier trikes.
Don't care for app connectivity. I'd rather have my phone safe in a bag than sitting on the handlebar where it's exposed to weather, hard to see in sunlight, and vulnerable to a fall.
Don't care for app connectivity. I'd rather have my phone safe in a bag than sitting on the handlebar where it's exposed to weather, hard to see in sunlight, and vulnerable to a fall.
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When the regulations in the EU are clearly being influence by mid-drive manufacturers the hub drive motors are not competing on a level playing field (mid drives have added gear complexity to amplify the torque produced by faster spinning small motors). The simplicity and elegance of a direct drive hub motor makes great sense for urban commuting and yet the big players making mid drives is going to kill that technology.
When they restrict both power and speed to such ridiculously low limits (250W & 25kph) for an ebike to remain classified as a bike hub motors are not competing on a level playing field. I think the world needs effective human scale transportation more than we need more money going towards pay and pensions of vehicle registration and insurance industry workers, but I don't work in those jobs.
I wonder what they are going to do about the fact that even Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose have "peak" power modes that exceed the ridiculous 250W limit. I know I'm going to get a bunch of forum responses telling me that 25kph and 250W is enough for them so it should be enough for me. I ride my traditional road bike at far higher speeds than 25kph without a motor so I don't need to be lectured by people that stay at much slower speeds.
J.R.
Well-Known Member
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I wonder if Specialized abandoning the system played a significant role in the demise of the Go Swiss drive. I believe Specialized was their biggest customer. Court's reviews of the Turbo hub drive bikes were always positive and that the bikes produced good power. There were even Turbo speed pedelecs.
E-Wheels
Well-Known Member
Im still tying to understand the rationale as to why Specialized did exactly this
The earlier Turbo models had the Go Swiss motor which was fast and mostly reliable, which was a huge draw card for commuting and now they have the Brose motor
D
Deleted member 4210
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are the Brose's any good ? havent heard much positive about them. mostly mixed feedback.
bombadero
Active Member
Just found out about this today, while trying to troubleshoot a dead Go SwissDrive on our HP Velotechnik Scorpion after only about a year of riding it. Feeling pretty cheesed about the whole thing.
That said, I don't suppose anyone knows how to get a hold of a license key for a the Go SwissDrive Servicetool? Can't find it anywhere online. The mechanic who retrofitted my trike sent me a link to the tool, which I need to use to attempt a motor re-calibration - which I'm hoping will fix it as I'm getting a lot of motor calibration errors in the computer - but it's worthless without a license key. I've reached out to that mechanic, Go SwissDrive and Recumbent PDX, the next closest trike shop (10 hours away by car); hopefully one of them will get back to me.
By the way, before it died on me, this system was generally pretty great. Lots of torque, better acceleration than the Bosch CX system on our R&M, whisper quiet, and until now, completely reliable. I hope it didn't burn out - I don't think it did, but if so I have some tough decisions to make, like whether to convert the trike bike and forget about it being electric, or spend a bunch of money fitting it with another kit myself. Even if I fix the GSD system, if it ever dies for good I will have this decision to face again at that point. This is after having a bad experience with Kalkhoff and trading up to an R&M. Now we're wondering how Bosch and/or R&M will fail us. Sorry, feeling pretty sour atm.
That said, I don't suppose anyone knows how to get a hold of a license key for a the Go SwissDrive Servicetool? Can't find it anywhere online. The mechanic who retrofitted my trike sent me a link to the tool, which I need to use to attempt a motor re-calibration - which I'm hoping will fix it as I'm getting a lot of motor calibration errors in the computer - but it's worthless without a license key. I've reached out to that mechanic, Go SwissDrive and Recumbent PDX, the next closest trike shop (10 hours away by car); hopefully one of them will get back to me.
By the way, before it died on me, this system was generally pretty great. Lots of torque, better acceleration than the Bosch CX system on our R&M, whisper quiet, and until now, completely reliable. I hope it didn't burn out - I don't think it did, but if so I have some tough decisions to make, like whether to convert the trike bike and forget about it being electric, or spend a bunch of money fitting it with another kit myself. Even if I fix the GSD system, if it ever dies for good I will have this decision to face again at that point. This is after having a bad experience with Kalkhoff and trading up to an R&M. Now we're wondering how Bosch and/or R&M will fail us. Sorry, feeling pretty sour atm.
If you go back and look their is as a Specialized youtube video where the Specialized's design engineer discusses why they dropped hub motors in favor of mid-drives. The thinking was that electric motors increase efficiency as rpm's increase. The low rpm hub motors generated heat from their lost energy. Mid-mount motors allow for gearing to convert high rpms into torque. If you are interested, you will find the discussion videos produced to introduce the new Vado line.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Any direct drive hub is capable of “pedal charging”. However the added drag applied while pedaling is a net loss vs Watts gained unless you want to use it as way to add resistance for training..
Regen is effective for when you want to slow down saving on pad wear but still only adds minimal energy return.
bombadero
Active Member
If it helps anyone else with a GSD system, I ran the calibration routine via the service tool and it failed with an error M84, indicating torque sensor failure. I'm still under warranty for a month, so I hope to get it replaced by HPV under warranty. I found out from the very helpful folks at Recumbent PDX in Portland, who I sometimes reach out to for additional questions, that under EU regulations GSD is required to provide replacement parts for 5 years. Of course, that's not so helpful when my warranty runs out if I have another drive fail, as the motor and wheel replacement from HPV costs about $1,400. I'm handy with a soldering iron, so I'd be happy to replace the torque sensor myself , which would be much cheaper and more convenient than shipping a nearly 20-lb. wheel to Germany and waiting a month for a replacement, but I doubt anyone outside of GSD can source the torque sensor. Also, I'm not sure if you can fully open the drive without unlacing the wheel.
bombadero
Active Member
@JRA yeah, I went down to the garage to take a look and unlike some DIY kits, the spoke tabs and the screws are all part of one piece on the housing, so you'd have to unlace the whole wheel.
On the plus side regarding my motor failing, HPV honored the warranty and is sending out a new hub motor wheel via UPS, so it should arrive in under a week.
Another plus, depending on how you look at it, is that I may be partially to blame for the torque sensor failing, although it's hard to tell for sure. I noticed after I took the wheel off that the axle on the drive-side was quite bent, which may have occurred when I placed a Hexlox security nut on it. There is a knurled washer that fits inside the end of the freehub on the motor that had fallen out (it's not supposed to according to my HPV mechanic) when I had taken the wheel off previously to change the tire. Not knowing where it had come from, I had thought it was a spacing washer, and replaced the wheel using it as the spacing washer. This meant that this spacer wasn't inside the freehub to brace the axle. In addition, I had to use 5 spacers for the Hexlox, because it is hex drive and covers the end of the axle, which is quite long on this motor, so I was applying a considerably longer moment arm (orthogonally, that is) while tightening. A hex drive can also move orthogonally more than a hex nut. So I may have bent the axle unintentionally when tightening it to appropriate torque.
Another possibility is that an unskilled bike thief attempted to steal the wheel and damaged it, it got bumped hard at a bike rack, or something like that. In any event, I'm treating it as a net positive since it means the drive system seems to be more reliable than I was giving it credit. We'll see what happens with the replacement, but I will probably not use the Hexlox on it. It's a great security nut, but I guess you only want to use it on axles short enough that it can flush directly to the dropout. My LBS mechanic was the one who suggested the spacers - I feel like he should have known better, but oh well, I learned something.
On the plus side regarding my motor failing, HPV honored the warranty and is sending out a new hub motor wheel via UPS, so it should arrive in under a week.
Another plus, depending on how you look at it, is that I may be partially to blame for the torque sensor failing, although it's hard to tell for sure. I noticed after I took the wheel off that the axle on the drive-side was quite bent, which may have occurred when I placed a Hexlox security nut on it. There is a knurled washer that fits inside the end of the freehub on the motor that had fallen out (it's not supposed to according to my HPV mechanic) when I had taken the wheel off previously to change the tire. Not knowing where it had come from, I had thought it was a spacing washer, and replaced the wheel using it as the spacing washer. This meant that this spacer wasn't inside the freehub to brace the axle. In addition, I had to use 5 spacers for the Hexlox, because it is hex drive and covers the end of the axle, which is quite long on this motor, so I was applying a considerably longer moment arm (orthogonally, that is) while tightening. A hex drive can also move orthogonally more than a hex nut. So I may have bent the axle unintentionally when tightening it to appropriate torque.
Another possibility is that an unskilled bike thief attempted to steal the wheel and damaged it, it got bumped hard at a bike rack, or something like that. In any event, I'm treating it as a net positive since it means the drive system seems to be more reliable than I was giving it credit. We'll see what happens with the replacement, but I will probably not use the Hexlox on it. It's a great security nut, but I guess you only want to use it on axles short enough that it can flush directly to the dropout. My LBS mechanic was the one who suggested the spacers - I feel like he should have known better, but oh well, I learned something.
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