Throttles and California

[Chargeride]

Yes, it depends how deep they want to dig, but remember if you hit someone, they'll dig to China...

 

[m@Robertson]

For the 750w limit, it's likely targeting the base wattage for the motor listed by the man/battery label, which for mine is 750w, it peaks at 1320, but who is going to measure the wattage output in the middle of a ride? If they try this tactic, I can show this is a 750w bike as per the manufacturer, and that's what it uses when I ride as far as I know. Is there a "motor-wattage-ometer" I was unaware of? I doubt it.

Counter opinions to this? What am I missing?

Police in other parts of the world set down bicycle dynos and test power output. I actually saw one in Fresno California but it was years ago, and I was driving by so I never had to deal with it and have no idea what PR stunt they were pulling.

Also if you read the law it is absolutely clear that the power output is limited to an absolute 750w peak. The 'nominal' method of calc'ing motor output went out the window which is why you see the discussion you do here. You can find links in this thread as well as quotes from the law here.

The yellow scooter pic came from 2016 so this dyno thing is nothing new. The one I saw in Fresno looked a lot more like the blue Dutch one on the left.

So far I have seen reporting on seizures of Sur Rons and nothing more. It *seems* as if law enforcement was just waiting for the green light to put the hammer down on them. With that said on my last two rides I've seen two Sur Rons on the paths, so they have not gone away just yet. And a little rugrat blew by me yesterday at the wharf doing a wheelie on a Super 73 clone so there's still lots of room to keep the cops busy before they start going after the Rad Runners.

 

[cleverest]

Time will tell, but I doubt there will be much action done against actual class 2+ (modified to class 3, 28mph bike with pedaling.... It seems like a real PITA to try to enforce unless people are driving recklessly stupid and calling attention to themselves in the process. We shall see.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Counter opinions to this? What am I missing?

Who are you actually cheating?
Yourself?

 

[Chargeride]

The DJI motor has a 1000w boost mode, completely legal in Europe under our '250w' legislation.
It always was a speed limit.
A 1500w bbshd with no throttle and 15.5mph restricted would be effectively legal, just lacks the 'official' paperwork.

 

[PCeBiker]

A 1500w bbshd with no throttle and 15.5mph restricted would be effectively legal, just lacks the 'official' paperwork.

And it would be REALLY Useful to deal with mountainous terrain hauling cargo or a typical North American weighing almost 300 pounds.

It's just got to have reliable brakes for coming back down the mountain.

I think speed limits are the way to go.
Sometimes you need lots of power, even to go really slow.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Counter opinions to this? What am I missing?

As far as your subterfuge, it's pretty obvious when someone is just moving their feet while riding 20mph. You're not fooling anybody at all with zero effort riding. I do think they are targeting the so called "off road" electric bikes and bad riding behavior. A couple of years ago parents were buying them for their kids to get around. One of the local police departments started a parents education program to let them know their heinies and assets where hanging out in the wind when/if their kids hurt somebody. I haven't see them on the main MUP much at all lately.

 

[kevinmccune]

I'd like to see an accurate readout of that bike at maximum power. From my experience living in hilly country (and I'm pretty darn fit for 70+), 240 watts would not be enough power -- unless it's an incredibly light ebike.

As far as California's law, it's unenforceable. Though I guess it could be used as a cudgel on almost any ebiker in the good ol' USA.

I know from experience 600 watts( if you help") will carry you up a grade that is hard to walk up,my 500 watt "hill and Dale" was a very capable climber( wish I would have kept it).

 

[kevinmccune]

We can thank all the "I want a motorcycle but don't want to have to bother with registration/insurance/safety regs and also want to ride it on ped/bike infra" crowd for this. Probably a harbinger of whats to come in a lot of other states/localities. From where I sit, pretty much everyone except ebikers are rapidly getting fed up with being forced to share space with what are basically motorcycles, and those chickens are coming home to roost.

you said it,the dummies are ruining it for everybody,one of the reasons I say buy a EV car or truck now,get them now while they are reliable before the manufacturers build in too many service points and dumb them down.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Time will tell, but I doubt there will be much action done against actual class 2+ (modified to class 3, 28mph bike with pedaling.... It seems like a real PITA to try to enforce unless people are driving recklessly stupid and calling attention to themselves in the process. We shall see.

If you make it too difficult to distinguish between different types of e-bikes the response might well be to ban all e-bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Actually France is fantastic for cyclists, theres obviously immense respect for cycling.
Paris isnt France

That's certainly what I observed in the city center in 2019. Why they bothered painting lanes on the streets is beyond me. Traffic moved in swarms, horns blaring, and some drivers considered the sidewalks fair game.

Guys, I have found this new video about cycling in Paris France.

Not bad at all. Notice the matters have only accelerated since 2014.

Cycling advocacy groups could set up the Officer For The Bicycle Transportation at the President of Warsaw as early as September 2006. Since that, the construction of bike paths (in most situations, these are separated bike paths) has gained the momentum in whole Poland. Turned out, building bike paths for the EU money was one of the easiest way to use the EU financing!

The map of bike paths in Warsaw and her suburbs. The construction of bike paths is a continuous process.
Because we now have so much cycling infrastructure, people are choosing to cycle and it shows!

 

[Chargeride]

The app is superb, so many people in power hide their failures in gobbledegook, obscure charts and even bloated pdf files instead of clear websites in the hope everyone gives up.
This where AI will cause a sea change as people can easily rip through their bureaucracy to get the actual facts and present it in a simple to understand format.

 

[mschwett]

I know from experience 600 watts( if you help") will carry you up a grade that is hard to walk up,my 500 watt "hill and Dale" was a very capable climber( wish I would have kept it).

sure, 600w + 100-200w human input will take you up a steep hill… but it might take a motor rated for much higher than that to achieve 600w at a relatively slow hill climbing speed, especially with a hub drive. and with a mid drive, you’ll need the right gearing, which many e-bikes don’t have.

 

[Nvreloader]

What going to happen with a rider from different/surrounding state, who decides to ride a throttle equipped bike, that is being ridden in a safe/sane manner, and know nothing about these knee jerk actions, that have been passed/enforced etc?
ymmv

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

What going to happen with a rider from different/surrounding state, who decides to ride a throttle equipped bike, that is being ridden in a safe/sane manner, and know nothing about these knee jerk actions, that have been passed/enforced etc?
ymmv

In Nevada, lethal injection. In neighboring Utah, firing squad.

Seriously, though, it's a valid question. Ignorance of the law is generally not an excuse. That leaves the unwitting offender at the mercy of law enforcement or the courts.

If you rented the banned throttled ebike from a licensed business that rents them in spite of the ban — something I can easily see happening in the near future here in SoCal — you might get some traction by arguing that the rental place should have disclosed the legal risk.

But if you brought the offending ebike into the state yourself — say, on the back of your camper van on a road trip — you might be out of luck.

Best defense is responsible, courteous riding with the pedals always turning.

 

[mschwett]

What going to happen with a rider from different/surrounding state, who decides to ride a throttle equipped bike, that is being ridden in a safe/sane manner, and know nothing about these knee jerk actions, that have been passed/enforced etc?
ymmv

i doubt that’s going to be a huge problem - california is a very big state with only three neighbors, and the amount of cross border riding over the sierra and through the deserts is nearly nil. the oregon border, a few. sure, people put bikes on cars and drive hundreds/thousands of miles but not all that often. a similar situation already exists with many states having slightly different rules around motor vehicle registration, traffic laws, emissions, inspections, noise, etc, and it doesn’t seem to be a huge problem even for vehicles which easily cross state lines.

it’s either a feature or a bug of our republic that states have the power to make laws on many subjects which the federal government either does not or chooses not to.

 

[PedalUma]

Just to be clear, SurRons are junk. We have four in the shop this week. They spend more time getting repaired then being ridden and they are not bikes. Jeremy is on to something. The answer is to remove the throttle. Then how can a bike be dyno tested? Just use the torque or pas. On Velotric bikes with torque sensors the torque sensor can be turned off so it can be ghost pedaled. That is as easy as using your thumb and just as dumb and with faster acceleration.

 

[6zfshdb]

What going to happen with a rider from different/surrounding state, who decides to ride a throttle equipped bike, that is being ridden in a safe/sane manner, and know nothing about these knee jerk actions, that have been passed/enforced etc?
ymmv

I'm concerned about this as well. I regularly ride in 6 different states on park trails, MUP's, rail and canal trails. There are municipal, county, state and federal regulations involved, which are constantly changing, and impossible to keep up with.

I ride a throttled class 2 bike and so far, I've been questioned twice. Both times were at trailhead parking areas, but I was never asked to leave. Rather than try to keep current with these ever changing regulations, I don't ride like an idiot, rarely use the throttle and try not to draw attention to myself. If a trailhead is posted "No E-Bikes", or if a ranger is present, I'll move on to the next. I can usually find one that isn't posted. That way, I can always plead ignorance if questioned.

I was told by a park ranger in my home state of PA. that they use a make & model list to determine if a bike is legal or not. The presence of a throttle is not a clear indication since some legal class 1 bikes have them for low speed walk assist. Removing the throttle may or may not make a difference if your bike is on the list. Consequently, if you have a legal bike on the class 1 list and add a throttle, you'd likely not have a problem. This is only true for PA. state parks though and probably won't apply everywhere.

Since I don't use the throttle much, I usually keep my class 2 bike in walk assist mode in case a LEO decides to check it. I also ride a "frankenbike" which doesn't show up on any list.

Up to this point, other than being questioned, I haven't had any real trouble on the 20 or so trails I regularly ride. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes it will stay that way.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I'm concerned about this as well. I regularly ride in 6 different states on park trails, MUP's, rail and canal trails. There are municipal, county, state and federal regulations involved, which are constantly changing, and impossible to keep up with.

I ride a throttled class 2 bike and so far, I've been questioned twice. Both times were at trailhead parking areas, but I was never asked to leave. Rather than try to keep current with these ever changing regulations, I don't ride like an idiot, rarely use the throttle and try not to draw attention to myself. If a trailhead is posted "No E-Bikes", or if a ranger is present, I'll move on to the next. I can usually find one that isn't posted. That way, I can always plead ignorance if questioned.

I was told by a park ranger in my home state of PA. that they use a make & model list to determine if a bike is legal or not. The presence of a throttle is not a clear indication since some legal class 1 bikes have them for low speed walk assist. Removing the throttle may or may not make a difference if your bike is on the list. Consequently, if you have a legal bike on the class 1 list and add a throttle, you'd likely not have a problem. This is only true for PA. state parks though and probably won't apply everywhere.

Since I don't use the throttle much, I usually keep my class 2 bike in walk assist mode in case a LEO decides to check it. I also ride a "frankenbike" which doesn't show up on any list.

Up to this point, other than being questioned, I haven't had any real trouble on the 20 or so trails I regularly ride. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes it will stay that way.

I think your best defense is to have a wicker basket in front with a puppy and some daisies.

 

[Brian-s]

I think your best defense is to have a wicker basket in front with a puppy and some daisies.

Or an FOP bumper sticker on your bike