Front page LA Times today regarding Ebikes

[Mr. Coffee]

It's quite simple, I did not kill any children, no crimes were committed with my firearms, therefore I should not be deprived of property based upon the crimes of another person. Is that callous? Maybe, but it's the way it's supposed to work. I don't see anyone saying that the German civilians during WWII should be held to the same standard of punishment as the soldiers that worked in concentration camps. I've read stories where BMW drivers have killed people, should all BMW drivers be held liable? They've even killed children. I have done nothing to harm anyone, nor society as a whole.

I'm not sure what your diatribe about training comes from. You don't know me, you have no clue what my training is. People, if they own a firearm, should have training, should it be mandated by law? No, because the moment it's mandated by law it will be a tool to deny people the ability to own a firearm, that's the game that NJ is currently playing with a recent SCOTUS ruling. How? By making it incredibly difficult to get the training that's required whether it's be cost or by scheduling and location. Sure you can get training, but it only happens on the 2nd tuesday of the third week of Smarch, the cost is $1500 paid in cash, for 8 hours, next year you'll have to come in for more training.

Callous? I'd first off suggest that if you think that you sound callous on two different threads on widely different topics you might, just might, actually be singularly lacking in compassion for your fellow humans and unable or unwilling to consider different points of view.

From where I sit you seem perfectly okay with letting people who have no dog in your fight die for your rights. It is one thing to stand up and put your own life on the line for your rights. It is another thing altogether to expect others to die for your rights. It is another thing still to expect children to be sacrificed for your rights. And apparently be okay with it.

It just makes me want to vomit, bluntly.

Sure, I don't know you. Maybe you are an olympic-level athlete with superb kinesthetic sense and a natural shot. Maybe you aren't. But I'd bet any day of the week that one hundred randomly chosen civilian firearm owners are much less skilled and competent with their weapons than one hundred randomly chosen police officers. And we know that police officers make appalling mistakes with their weapons all the time, killing both innocent bystanders, sometimes other police officers, and sometimes themselves. So we can reasonably expect civilians to do worse in the aggregate, and probably much worse. I'd argue that they would do so much worse that any benefit to the common defense or their own defense is probably negligible. You might have a different opinion.

If the statistics aren't lying, your odds of killing yourself with that loaded handgun in the nightstand are approximately five times higher than you killing yourself if you didn't have that handgun. Chances are the most likely thing you'll do with that handgun is nothing at all, the second most likely is you'll use it to kill yourself, and far less likely than either of those you might end up using that sidearm to defend yourself or your family. So can the risk really be worth it?

 

[PedalUma]

a) When someone prepares a gun and is packing it for a trip to get groceries; what goes through their mind? What scenario are they preparing for? b) That is provided that their scenario does not include anyone else headed to the same store and preparing and packing a gun while having violent fantasies? 54 mass shootings in January. 25% of all men go thru some period of mental illness. We don't know which ones but some are preparing guns for groceries right now. I thought I had a right to life and happiness? To freely go about my business in public. And also due process under the Fifth Amendment, meaning some packing vigilante can't just kill me.

 

[tomjasz]

like helmet wearers CC permit holders take more risks. Period.

 

[srolle]

Learn how to dismantle tyranny in 3 simple steps!
1. Do not give up your guns, no matter how convincing those who aim to take them away make the pretext
2. Do not allow the State to educate your children
3. Talk to everyone you are told to hate

 

[PedalUma]

dismantle tyranny

One guy said 'There is nothing as smooth as a lubed tranny.' But he never spoke of dismantling one!

 

[Nomad]

Now you're getting deep into philosophy (among other things).

The situations behind the people who get murdered are what we have to focus on; otherwise we're treating symptoms instead of the illness. I see two roots to the problem.

One root cause is mental illness. There are more issues and situations nowadays because many (most?) states no longer have the treatment facilities they once supported. Instead, arrested individuals who need treatment wind up incarcerated instead of in a place that specializes in treatment. (But we still might ask: why is there a surge in mental illness these days?)

The other (deeper) root cause is spiritual. People who think there is no deity watching their actions, and who think there are no eternal consequences, are far more likely to steal, kill, destroy property, etc. People who do not believe there is a God who loves them but who also expects high moral standards are more prone to be self-centered, self-serving, and uncaring about the needs, wants, and rights of other people. After all, if all we get afterward is the same dirt nap as everyone else, why not swipe that check out of your neighbor's mailbox or shoot the guy who cut you off in traffic, as long as you think you can get away with it? Or maybe you hate yourself and your life so much, you don't even care if you live or die, so why not go out in a "blaze of glory?" Contrast this with folks who believe that they are expected to love God, and love one another as much as they love themselves, and that an eternal penalty awaits those who refuse? We are seeing the societal results of a far lower number of changed hearts and lives.

In the 1950s plenty of people went to bed with their doors unlocked. Neighbors looked out for neighbors. Kids took their guns with them to school so they could go hunting before or after, and there was no "mass shooting" problem. Schoolteachers led the students in prayer every morning and taught the kids Biblical moral values (you know the ones... the values our founders had). Students behaved in class and applied themselves to their lessons with a minimum of cheating. Parents backed all of this up, and gladly.

But starting in the 1960s a series of legal decisions changed all that.

Now we have seen the kids of the '60s grow up and have kids of the '80s, who had kids of the 2000s, all of whom grew up in a different school environment. And this school environment inevitably trickled down into the home environment. Now it is against the law to teach kids in school the real reasons why they should obey their parents, respect teachers and elders, and avoid cheating. Now we lock our doors, bar the windows, and peer out nervously at the miscreants on the sidewalk while hoping they don't take a notion to break in. Kids are more far unruly and disobedient at home. Their parents were raised to not believe in absolute moral standards, so the kids don't believe in them either. It's 'dog eat dog,' everyone for himself, and let the foolish nice guys get the hindmost. I hear from school personnel that even the parents now come into the building exhibiting behavior issues! (Some example they are setting for their children!) Violent video games and movies, along with easily accessible porn which debases the female human being, have contributed to an unconsciously held belief in today's young adults and youths that other people exist on this planet to give them pleasure and to take advantage of.

Should we be surprised at the uptick in mass shootings? Should we be surprised by rampant corruption in government? Should we be surprised by corporate greed? These are the logical outgrowths of excluding from our society the basic moral tenets which glue a society together.

History repeats its self there are good things and bad things about that. So the day will come when doors can be left unlocked again if the earth isn't destroyed first.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

I see three posts of assumptions with zero data to back it up. There was a mall shooting not too long ago that was stopped quickly by a concealed carrier. I don't recall the circumstances, but ht was there, took action and saved lives. Do I fantisize about that being me? Absolutely not. Would I have done the same thing had I been in that situation, yes. But it isn't anything that I focus on. Why are those instances of private citizen stopping such things rare? Because some states have told you that the police will keep you safe at the same time the police have no duty to protect you. The chances of the police stopping a mass shooting with the same speed as the young man in the mall are just as slim as the young man doing it himself, because the police can't be everywhere all the time.

But hey, it's been fun being told that I'm evil, and apparently mentally ill and incompetent by people that know nothing about me by making wild assed assumptions obviously pulled out of someone's ass.

I realize that I have no chance of changing anyone's entrenched positions here, but some of you guys really need take and honest look at your own emotions and how you deal with people.

 

[Rexlion]

I see three posts of assumptions with zero data to back it up. There was a mall shooting not too long ago that was stopped quickly by a concealed carrier. I don't recall the circumstances, but ht was there, took action and saved lives. Do I fantisize about that being me? Absolutely not. Would I have done the same thing had I been in that situation, yes. But it isn't anything that I focus on. Why are those instances of private citizen stopping such things rare? Because some states have told you that the police will keep you safe at the same time the police have no duty to protect you. The chances of the police stopping a mass shooting with the same speed as the young man in the mall are just as slim as the young man doing it himself, because the police can't be everywhere all the time.

But hey, it's been fun being told that I'm evil, and apparently mentally ill and incompetent by people that know nothing about me by making wild assed assumptions obviously pulled out of someone's ass.

I realize that I have no chance of changing anyone's entrenched positions here, but some of you guys really need take and honest look at your own emotions and how you deal with people.

I think Mr. Coffee needs some of those cookies (to dunk in his coffee?) that you took to that family whose horses got out. After reading how all that went down, I don't know how anyone can say you're lacking compassion. Half the population would have been too pissed at them to give them the time of day, and would have 'lawyered up' to sue them.

Too bad more people aren't aware of how many crimes are deterred on a daily basis by citizens with firearms. Most of the time just because of the gun's presence, without firing a shot.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

I think Mr. Coffee needs some of those cookies (to dunk in his coffee?) that you took to that family whose horses got out. After reading how all that went down, I don't know how anyone can say you're lacking compassion. Half the population would have been too pissed at them to give them the time of day, and would have 'lawyered up' to sue them.

Too bad more people aren't aware of how many crimes are deterred on a daily basis by citizens with firearms. Most of the time just because of the gun's presence, without firing a shot.

Thank you. I just spent 12 hours with a family of 21 ranging in age from sub-toddler, teens, young married couple and mid 50's. They all knew I was carrying, we had a fun time, had dinner together at the best pizza place here on my suggestion.

Yes, in regards to that situation, that is what the Amish have come to expect when something like that happens. Including people coming back months to years later after it's been settled and try to sue. There was no point in being angry since it accomplishes nothing. It is better to look for the good in the bad, and move on. In our case we have new friends, and our family is now a welcome part of their community.

 

[srolle]

I realize that I have no chance of changing anyone's entrenched positions here

It's manufactured consent & consensus. Unless you too have a mass media machine at your disposal...
Edit: and that's why some were big mad at the Twitter purchase. Literally a modern psychological & information warfare weapon that's been somewhat disarmed.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Allow me to tell you a very true story of compassion.

I'm sure that many of you have heard of the Nickel Mines School shooting that happened a few years ago. If not, please google it, but I'll give you the gist and what many are probably not aware of because the media didn't really write about it much.

A man, that was known the community took over the school, told all the boys and the adults to leave and kept all the young girls in. He boarded up the windows then tied/taped up the girls on the floor. One of the young girls ran out with the boys, no one is sure if she did it because she knew what was happening or if she just didn't understand the order. You see, Amish kids don't learn english until they go to school. Until then they only know PA dutch and a smattering of english.

There was a standoff that went on for hours, eventually the man shot the girls lying on the floor, then shot himself, that allowed PSP to enter the school and quickly get the injured to the hospital, they were flown to local hospitals and to two in Delaware. Some lived, some were taken off life support.

After dark that night, the wife of the shooter was at home after being informed of what happened and that her husband had killed himself. I'm sure she was terrified and horribly confused. She looked out her front window and saw 40 Amish men approach her house an come onto the porch. She locked her doors because she didn't know if she was in danger and then were there to seek retribution for the crimes of her husband.

No, they convinced her to let them in. They came in, talked with her, prayed with her, told her that they held no animosity towards her and I believe at that point told her they forgave her husband for his horrid crimes. That wasn't just for show, that's how they live. I wonder how many could have that kind of compassion? I'm not sure I could at the time.

When it came to preparing her husband's body for the funeral no home would do the job. I don't know who eventually did, but it eventually got done. The day of the funeral and full blown committee of reporters were at the graveyard. When the wife arrived she was visibly upset, a large group of Amish men were there too. They saw her discomfort and they surrounded her to shield her from the cameras. They escorted her to the grave and stayed with her, and comforted her the entire time.

Fast forward to about a year and half ago. I was talking to a man that doesn't live in that area, but it is well aware of it's happening, he knows the families, but his family wasn't involved. We got to talking about crimes related to the Amish community, including the story of the kidnapping, rape and murder of Linda Stolzfoos (google the name). His first question for me about it was "How can someone do things like that?" I replied "I'll tell you, but I think you already know the answer. Some people are just evil." He agreed. We talked on the subject for over an hour. At one point I asked him if he thought the gun evil. His reply "no the person committing the act is evil".

Now, a lot of people because of this and the thinking that the amish are pacifists that they would be pro gun control. They're not, the idea of the government taking guns away from innocent people is abhorrent to them. One of their strongest beliefs is that of personal choice and freedom.

The topic of self defense came up during that talk, and I asked him it came to it, and he had to use a gun for defense would he? He said "well.<deep thought for a few seconds> If someone was hurting my daughters I guess I'd have to do something about that." I then asked him what about defending himself he just replied he didn't know. I asked him "don't you have the right to live your life with your family (family is very important to them)." He reply "I guess I'll have to think about that." In our world, that would normally be a dismissive and end of conversation reply. With the Amish I know that he would return to that and give it thought. They are not impulsive in their replies when the topic needs thought.

I have been with families that were affected by the school shooting, those that lost children and those that survived. I have been with the teens that knew Linda Stolzfoos as well. I never broach the subject with them, but there are times they will talk to me about it. It is very easy to learn compassion when you're faced with that situation.

If you're one of those depraved types that like to visit places of tragedy, don't bother coming here looking for the Nickel Mines school, it was torn down the day it was turned back to the community. There is no evidence a school was ever there. I drive by it maybe 3 times a week.

There it is, that's true and honest compassion. I don't know if I could do what those families did, but I certainly can respect them for it. The media still tries to use them to push an antigun narrative on the anniversary of the shooting every year. But the media just likes to make crap up about them and publish it like it's the truth.

 

[pmcdonald]

I hear you @JedidiahStolzfus. You speak with great humanity and compassion around genuine tragedy.

If we can dispassionately step back from the partisanship, industry lobbyists positions, and questions of identity what do the stats say? The charts and link below suggests there may be a statistical correlation between gun ownership and homicide. The link goes on to explore assault rates in developed nations. The US was far from the top of that list, meaning it's not any more violent than anywhere else (for example, Australia - the country I live in - had over double the rate of violent crime at the time of that study). When lots of people own guns, unsurprisingly violent interactions result in homicide more frequently.

Speaking from what stats I can find and the Australian experience (an imperfect 'control study'), if you want to see less mass homicide events then cut the number of firearms per capita, simple as that. If you think the right to bear arms is worth the price of however hundreds or thousands of mass shooting events a year then so be it. Call it the price of admission, the cost of 'freedom', the butcher bill. It's a steep cost. Whatever the lobbyists will try and spin I don't see a path to reducing one without reducing the other.

Source: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...-violence-mass-shootings-us-statistics-charts

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Taking guns, away from millions of people like me, isn't going to reduce mass shootings. It comes down to a morality problem, and no, I'm not talking about religion. It's a general lack of respect for our fellow man. In some communities, someone gets "disrespected" and the guns come out. That isn't a person like me, doing that, that is a person with a broken moral compass. A couple years ago, a pedestrian yelled at a driver to slow down in a residential area. The driver stopped and shot him, again, a broken moral compass. Of course, the other problem that goes hand in hand with that situation is that the guy should have been in jail, but we currently have DA's across the country that refuse to press charges against many violent criminals and let them out on low, or no bail for them to re-offend before their court dates even come up.

There are countless cases across the country where a person is arrested with a firearm when they're not legally allowed to possess one. Those charges many times dropped, or their plead down, just so the DA can get a win. When that happens, the criminal isn't sentence to the crime they actually committed so they're not put away where they should be. This is done out of a twisted sense of morality that it's wrong to lock up criminals.

How about, instead of passing new laws, we thoroughly enforce the laws that are already there. If you dig into the history of the actual reported mass shooting, you'll quickly find that many times the person that has the gun shouldn't have had it to begin with, mistakes were made, but those that made those mistakes are never held accountable. The mass shooting that we don't hear about are those that happen in large cities, NY, Chicago, Philly, and LA being the large suppliers of stats. Those shootings aren't talked about in the media, instead they're just used to pad the statistics. No one cares of a bunch of gangs in the inner cities shoot each there, there's no compassion for them, there's no sidewalk piles of teddy bears for them. They're just stats.

In many of the cases of young people shooting up schools, it's a parental failure that lead to it, a prime early example of that would be Brenda Ann Spencer, a trouble teen. Her father, trying to connect with her bought her a rifle. She got high on something (she now recants that) and started shooting at the school across the street. Her father knew she was troubled, probably not a good idea to give her a rifle. She didn't steal it, she was given it.

In the instance of Harris and Klebold, they were able to build bombs and stash guns in their home without their parents knowledge. That's a sign of disinterest and probably the parents just too busy to care what the kids were doing. I'm not saying that a parent needs to spy on their children, but you should at least be aware of their activities.

As you start looking into these stories, you'll find there's a lot of parenting failure. In many other cases the signs were there that the person was troubled, and probably needed help, but too many people are blind to either through their own selfishness or disinterest.

We as a society need to do better to raise kids with a strong moral compass (again, doesn't have to be religion) with the strength to do the right thing, to care enough to take an interest in their lives, help them when they need help. Talk to them about the problems they're having. Just make time for your kids. If you see one of your kid's friends being troubled, talk to them too, see if you can help without intruding on their parent's responsibilities. Yes, it can be done.

 

[pmcdonald]

Taking guns, away from millions of people like me, isn't going to reduce mass shootings.

But it will. I'm not arguing on the personal level. You sound like a standup citizen and I'd love to have you as a neighbor and friend. But look at the aggregate stats. What happens when more people own guns? The data and countless studies are available for anyone to peruse. Study after study links gun ownership to higher homicide rates. You can't have one without the other - they're intrinsically linked.

The example you went on to give illustrates this perfectly. If the road rage perpetrator had no gun on their person it would likely have been marked up as a violent assault. Not great but both participants live another day. They did, and instead it was a homicide.

That's the cold, grim reality of examining the stats alone: the link between guns and homicide is clear. What we choose to do with this knowledge is on us. I think it's an overwhelming issue in the US that will take generations to arrest, if the political will ever emerged at all. I think it's probably too entrenched for that. I can also see stats have no place in such a triggering subject for many (pun begrudgingly intended). Anyway, this topic is a sinkhole. Over and out.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

But it will. I'm not arguing on the personal level. You sound like a standup citizen and I'd love to have you as a neighbor and friend. But look at the aggregate stats. What happens when more people own guns? The data and countless studies are available for anyone to peruse. Study after study links gun ownership to higher homicide rates. You can't have one without the other - they're intrinsically linked.

The example you went on to give illustrates this perfectly. If the road rage perpetrator had no gun on their person it would likely have been marked up as a violent assault. Not great but both participants live another day. They did, and instead it was a homicide.

That's the cold, grim reality of examining the stats alone: the link between guns and homicide is clear. What we choose to do with this knowledge is on us. I think it's an overwhelming issue in the US that will take generations to arrest, if the political will ever emerged at all. I think it's probably too entrenched for that. Anyway, this topic is a sinkhole. Over and out.

Yes, and do you think all those criminals out there are going to turn in their guns out of compassion? No, they won't because they're criminals. All you're doing is removing firearms from people that aren't using them in crimes leaving them defenseless against an army of criminals that don't care how compassionate you are.

If you want to live that way, that's your choice, but my choice is to not live that way. I'm sure they'll be a retort (not from you) that "I refuse to live my life in fear, that's why I don't have a gun." Well, it's not about living in fear, it's about being prepared, no different than any other ways I am prepared, which are numerous and plentiful. There have been many cases where those preparations have been used. My wife and I even do seminars on it.

There were 10K+ DUI related deaths, some of them killing children, I don't see anyone demanding the return of prohibition. What did prohibition actually bring about? Gangs violating the law, lots of deaths due to those gangs. A segment of society will always be criminal, that's a fact. Leaving innocent people defenseless allows the gangs to thrive.

Maybe the military and other federal agencies need have their firearms removed since they're apparently unable to keep track of them: https://apnews.com/article/governme...litics-crime-6caba27108d05a8b7c1860959d1ae130

The police are so much better at keeping track of their firearms.

Multiple PD's have found that firearms have gone missing from evidence lockers only to be resold on the street. That isn't being done by civilians, that's cops stealing and then selling them.

The point of all that is, that taking my guns isn't going to stop the flow of guns into criminals hands.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Rome, my wife just came up with a riding challenge for you. You need to ride from the Aston Waikiki Sunset hotel down to the Hard Rock Cafe, buy 3 tshirts and make it back to the hotel in under 12 minutes to beat our time when we did it by taxi on the last day of our Honeymoon.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Not doable under 12 minutes.
Maybe 20 years ago when there were fewer cars.

We did it, 20 years ago, on a sunday morning.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

I will however plan a Waikiki ride and post pictures of Aston Sunset and Hard Rock Cafe.
My Dad's house is near diamond head I have to check on him anyway. I bought a used VW Tiguan for him couple weeks ago, had to give tutorials on how to use the display. He was very pleased with reverse camera and keyless features.

We called it our Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. We had our luggage with the concierge and hailed the only cab we could find on sunday morning. We forgot we wanted to get some Tshirts for friends at home. Asked the cabbie if he could get us from the hotel to the HardRock, then back to the hotel in under 20 minutes because our shuttle was coming. Down and back in 12 minutes. He dropped us off at the curb said he'd wait, and we sprinted to the HardRock, grabbed the TShirts and ran back to the cab, the door open and waiting. He got a good tip.

 

[PedalUma]

Yes, Tactical is premeditation. If you carry equipment to poach alligators on public land, that shows intent to poach. If you pack firearms that shows premeditated intent to murder fellow humans in public. Australia is a prime example to follow. Less is more. Putting a ton of hand grenades in a forest of chimps will result in deaths. It is not about their intent or goodness or badness. It is about proliferation. Quantity. We have the problem of proliferation to solve. Many US guns go to the South causing problems in other country's which in turn cause further problems here. Getting rid of or our gun addiction will solve this. Gun apologizers, marketers and lobbyists be dammed.

 

[Rexlion]

Sometimes we have to take the bad with the good.

I bet we could stop all crime if we put shock collars and 24/7 monitoring on every single person. Is it the right thing to do to everyone?

Maybe if we just put the collars on anyone who uses a throttle or exceeds 20mph on their ebike....