Front page LA Times today regarding Ebikes

[kevinmccune]

Ahh, I found where you got that number. 2/3's of those deaths are suicide. Do you think that if those people didn't have a gun, they wouldn't find another way to commit suicide that is just as easy as a firearm? Didn't Kate Spade, hang herself? People throw themselves off tall things, people drive into lakes and off cliffs Was the rope Kate hung herself with inherently evil? How about bridges and buildings? No, they were just a convenient method to check out. No different than using a firearm. People use what they have at hand.

As a human, I have the right to defend myself and my family if need be. So far, and I hope it stays this way, I have never had to do that. At the same time, I carry a fire extinguisher in all my vehicles, including my boat, and I have them on every floor of my house, and in every garage. Have I ever had to use them? No, but they are there, just in case. It's more about preparation than it is about being evil.

To punish millions of people by depriving them of property due to the crimes of a very few is rather anti-freedom don't you think? I'm also not sure how an inanimate object can actually be evil? It isn't the one ring of power as you stated before, Sauron isn't talking to people through their firearms and giving them long life in return for evil acts. Can you explain the science behind that statement? Is it the chemicals in the gunpowder, maybe the Hopps #9?

People can be evil, and commit evil acts with objects regardless if it's a firearm or not. Remember, the Boston bombing was done with a pressure cooker, I have 4 of them, I never considered building a bomb out of them and placing it in a public place. A firearm, is no more evil than a hammer or any other tool. But someone just assaulted Paul Pelosi with a hammer, I don't see anyone screaming to have hammers banned. But the hammer was the tool that was used.

The vast majority of gunowners in the US are not how Hollywood portrays them, we're not Burt Gummer. But ya know what? When the graboids came, Burt saved the day with a few household chemicals in the right proportions.

I watched the video of Paul Pelosi vs that Punk,Paul could have put that guy down if He had tried, cannot imagine the hate in that critter( fed by the general zeitgeist) if Paul would have had a gun this probably wouldn't have happened,Paul tried to deescalate the situation( didn't work) Sam Colt would have helped there.
Being a fan of Hopps No.9 fumes, perhaps you are right.
You are right there is never too much preparedness.

 

[Nomad]

Hay does anybody know where I could find some good post that actual have do with E-bikes

 

[kevinmccune]

Hay does anybody know where I could find some good post that actual have do with E-bikes

Preparedness has everything to do with ebikes, unless you would like to walk 20 miles or have a vicious dog or human bite you.(Hey) These threads are an eclectic mix oft times straying and usually returning to the subject. As a whole we are very tolerant of others' opinions and attitudes you want to see trolls and butthurt go to some of the 4x4 sites and "personal sites"( thats how they degenerate anyway)

 

[Nomad]

Preparedness has everything to do with ebikes, unless you would like to walk 20 miles or have a vicious dog or human bite you.(Hey) These threads are an eclectic mix oft times straying and usually returning to the subject. As a whole we are very tolerant of others' opinions and attitudes you want to see trolls and butthurt go to some of the 4x4 sites and "personal sites"( thats how they degenerate anyway)

 

[kevinmccune]

Human bites are particularly nasty, one redneck got a bad infection in his hand after punching another rowdy in the the mouth( the rowdys mouth looked like there had been a 'forest fire" in there, what with the blackened stumps and all ) do not think they were riding ebikes.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Ahh, I found where you got that number. 2/3's of those deaths are suicide.

Let's talk about suicide. I find it extremely interesting (and telling) that the suicide rate is significantly higher if there is a handgun in the house. By a factor of eight for men and thirty-five for women:

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don’t own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don’t.

med.stanford.edu

This forum is largely composed of older, white men whom are already at elevated risk for suicide. So that gun is literally pointed at us.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

To punish millions of people by depriving them of property due to the crimes of a very few is rather anti-freedom don't you think?

Help me out here. Are the kids that die in school shootings not being "punished" too? Are you being punished because you are deprived of your "right" to drive your car on the left side of the road at 100mph? Maybe you have a perfect driving record and are capable of doing so safely.

We live in a complex society with millions of other people, many of whom are not exactly like us. That means there have to be some rules. Some of those rules are going to seem ridiculous and many of them are going to clearly suck. However, they likely suck much less than the alternatives.

Also, don't go around blaming people who just want to go peacefully about their business without being maimed or murdered. If you want to blame anyone, either blame fruitcakes who go off and murder a bunch of people or idiot politicians who think they can solve this problem with thoughts and prayers. Or people who make cop-outs about "mental health" but would scream bloody murder if we actually allocated (or even could allocate) adequate resources to address that obvious problem.

I own multiple firearms. I have done so since I was approximately twelve. Largely I use them to shoot beer cans, but only in self defense. However, I find all of the arguments that firearms advocates use for their retention to be at best questionable and in many cases ridiculous.

Operating a firearm safely and effectively is a learned and highly perishable skill. Which means you need continuous practice to keep the skill. Doing so in a kill-or-be-killed situation is an even more difficult and more perishable skill, as your own reflexes are working against you. Again you need continuous practice to maintain that skill. Very few civilians (and bluntly not enough police officers and people serving in the military) get the hours of training time needed to acquire and maintain those skills. At the same time most civilian firearm owners have a ridiculous degree of confidence that they could handle themselves effectively in a gunfight. Having a firearm in your home for self-defense without having those skills makes you a danger to yourself and others, but not necessarily the invading Venezuelan militia or the psycho killer in your kitchen.

I'd also add that it is pretty well-documented that a pretty substantial percentage of soldiers serving in WWII were just unwilling or unable to shoot at people, even in a life or death situation. You won't really know until you really are in one of those situations if you can shoot a person, even in self-defense.

 

[Rexlion]

Help me out here. Are the kids that die in school shootings not being "punished" too? Are you being punished because you are deprived of your "right" to drive your car on the left side of the road at 100mph? Maybe you have a perfect driving record and are capable of doing so safely.

We live in a complex society with millions of other people, many of whom are not exactly like us. That means there have to be some rules. Some of those rules are going to seem ridiculous and many of them are going to clearly suck. However, they likely suck much less than the alternatives.

Also, don't go around blaming people who just want to go peacefully about their business without being maimed or murdered. If you want to blame anyone, either blame fruitcakes who go off and murder a bunch of people or idiot politicians who think they can solve this problem with thoughts and prayers. Or people who make cop-outs about "mental health" but would scream bloody murder if we actually allocated (or even could allocate) adequate resources to address that obvious problem.

I own multiple firearms. I have done so since I was approximately twelve. Largely I use them to shoot beer cans, but only in self defense. However, I find all of the arguments that firearms advocates use for their retention to be at best questionable and in many cases ridiculous.

Operating a firearm safely and effectively is a learned and highly perishable skill. Which means you need continuous practice to keep the skill. Doing so in a kill-or-be-killed situation is an even more difficult and more perishable skill, as your own reflexes are working against you. Again you need continuous practice to maintain that skill. Very few civilians (and bluntly not enough police officers and people serving in the military) get the hours of training time needed to acquire and maintain those skills. At the same time most civilian firearm owners have a ridiculous degree of confidence that they could handle themselves effectively in a gunfight. Having a firearm in your home for self-defense without having those skills makes you a danger to yourself and others, but not necessarily the invading Venezuelan militia or the psycho killer in your kitchen.

I'd also add that it is pretty well-documented that a pretty substantial percentage of soldiers serving in WWII were just unwilling or unable to shoot at people, even in a life or death situation. You won't really know until you really are in one of those situations if you can shoot a person, even in self-defense.

Now you're getting deep into philosophy (among other things).

The situations behind the people who get murdered are what we have to focus on; otherwise we're treating symptoms instead of the illness. I see two roots to the problem.

One root cause is mental illness. There are more issues and situations nowadays because many (most?) states no longer have the treatment facilities they once supported. Instead, arrested individuals who need treatment wind up incarcerated instead of in a place that specializes in treatment. (But we still might ask: why is there a surge in mental illness these days?)

The other (deeper) root cause is spiritual. People who think there is no deity watching their actions, and who think there are no eternal consequences, are far more likely to steal, kill, destroy property, etc. People who do not believe there is a God who loves them but who also expects high moral standards are more prone to be self-centered, self-serving, and uncaring about the needs, wants, and rights of other people. After all, if all we get afterward is the same dirt nap as everyone else, why not swipe that check out of your neighbor's mailbox or shoot the guy who cut you off in traffic, as long as you think you can get away with it? Or maybe you hate yourself and your life so much, you don't even care if you live or die, so why not go out in a "blaze of glory?" Contrast this with folks who believe that they are expected to love God, and love one another as much as they love themselves, and that an eternal penalty awaits those who refuse? We are seeing the societal results of a far lower number of changed hearts and lives.

In the 1950s plenty of people went to bed with their doors unlocked. Neighbors looked out for neighbors. Kids took their guns with them to school so they could go hunting before or after, and there was no "mass shooting" problem. Schoolteachers led the students in prayer every morning and taught the kids Biblical moral values (you know the ones... the values our founders had). Students behaved in class and applied themselves to their lessons with a minimum of cheating. Parents backed all of this up, and gladly.

But starting in the 1960s a series of legal decisions changed all that.

Now we have seen the kids of the '60s grow up and have kids of the '80s, who had kids of the 2000s, all of whom grew up in a different school environment. And this school environment inevitably trickled down into the home environment. Now it is against the law to teach kids in school the real reasons why they should obey their parents, respect teachers and elders, and avoid cheating. Now we lock our doors, bar the windows, and peer out nervously at the miscreants on the sidewalk while hoping they don't take a notion to break in. Kids are more far unruly and disobedient at home. Their parents were raised to not believe in absolute moral standards, so the kids don't believe in them either. It's 'dog eat dog,' everyone for himself, and let the foolish nice guys get the hindmost. I hear from school personnel that even the parents now come into the building exhibiting behavior issues! (Some example they are setting for their children!) Violent video games and movies, along with easily accessible porn which debases the female human being, have contributed to an unconsciously held belief in today's young adults and youths that other people exist on this planet to give them pleasure and to take advantage of.

Should we be surprised at the uptick in mass shootings? Should we be surprised by rampant corruption in government? Should we be surprised by corporate greed? These are the logical outgrowths of excluding from our society the basic moral tenets which glue a society together.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

People like to blame Reagan for his closing of the mental treatment facilities in the 80's, basically making it a left vs right issue. But, there were 8 years of Clinton, 8 years of Obama, and now 4 years of Biden, I have yet to see them try to resolve the problem that is blamed on Reagan.

Those that blame Reagan have had more than enough time to get legislation to help the situation, and they've done nothing.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Help me out here. Are the kids that die in school shootings not being "punished" too? Are you being punished because you are deprived of your "right" to drive your car on the left side of the road at 100mph? Maybe you have a perfect driving record and are capable of doing so safely.

We live in a complex society with millions of other people, many of whom are not exactly like us. That means there have to be some rules. Some of those rules are going to seem ridiculous and many of them are going to clearly suck. However, they likely suck much less than the alternatives.

Also, don't go around blaming people who just want to go peacefully about their business without being maimed or murdered. If you want to blame anyone, either blame fruitcakes who go off and murder a bunch of people or idiot politicians who think they can solve this problem with thoughts and prayers. Or people who make cop-outs about "mental health" but would scream bloody murder if we actually allocated (or even could allocate) adequate resources to address that obvious problem.

I own multiple firearms. I have done so since I was approximately twelve. Largely I use them to shoot beer cans, but only in self defense. However, I find all of the arguments that firearms advocates use for their retention to be at best questionable and in many cases ridiculous.

Operating a firearm safely and effectively is a learned and highly perishable skill. Which means you need continuous practice to keep the skill. Doing so in a kill-or-be-killed situation is an even more difficult and more perishable skill, as your own reflexes are working against you. Again you need continuous practice to maintain that skill. Very few civilians (and bluntly not enough police officers and people serving in the military) get the hours of training time needed to acquire and maintain those skills. At the same time most civilian firearm owners have a ridiculous degree of confidence that they could handle themselves effectively in a gunfight. Having a firearm in your home for self-defense without having those skills makes you a danger to yourself and others, but not necessarily the invading Venezuelan militia or the psycho killer in your kitchen.

I'd also add that it is pretty well-documented that a pretty substantial percentage of soldiers serving in WWII were just unwilling or unable to shoot at people, even in a life or death situation. You won't really know until you really are in one of those situations if you can shoot a person, even in self-defense.

It's quite simple, I did not kill any children, no crimes were committed with my firearms, therefore I should not be deprived of property based upon the crimes of another person. Is that callous? Maybe, but it's the way it's supposed to work. I don't see anyone saying that the German civilians during WWII should be held to the same standard of punishment as the soldiers that worked in concentration camps. I've read stories where BMW drivers have killed people, should all BMW drivers be held liable? They've even killed children. I have done nothing to harm anyone, nor society as a whole.

I'm not sure what your diatribe about training comes from. You don't know me, you have no clue what my training is. People, if they own a firearm, should have training, should it be mandated by law? No, because the moment it's mandated by law it will be a tool to deny people the ability to own a firearm, that's the game that NJ is currently playing with a recent SCOTUS ruling. How? By making it incredibly difficult to get the training that's required whether it's be cost or by scheduling and location. Sure you can get training, but it only happens on the 2nd tuesday of the third week of Smarch, the cost is $1500 paid in cash, for 8 hours, next year you'll have to come in for more training.

 

[tomjasz]

Jeebus here we go, god and Guns. I’m not sure which is more dangerous.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Jeebus here we go, god and Guns. I’m not sure which is more dangerous.

Taking guns away from people that committed no crime is no different than the mindset that some have that because some people "misuse" a throttle no one should have them.

 

[tomjasz]

Taking guns away from people that committed no crime is no different than the mindset that some have that because some people "misuse" a throttle no one should have them.

On this we’ll never agree. Best I just STFU.

Armed, and in favor of far tougher gun laws. And restricting ownership of several types.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

It's quite simple, I did not kill any children, no crimes were committed with my firearms, therefore I should not be deprived of property based upon the crimes of another person. Is that callous? Maybe, but it's the way it's supposed to work. I don't see anyone saying that the German civilians during WWII should be held to the same standard of punishment as the soldiers that worked in concentration camps. I've read stories where BMW drivers have killed people, should all BMW drivers be held liable? They've even killed children. I have done nothing to harm anyone, nor society as a whole.

I'm not sure what your diatribe about training comes from. You don't know me, you have no clue what my training is. People, if they own a firearm, should have training, should it be mandated by law? No, because the moment it's mandated by law it will be a tool to deny people the ability to own a firearm, that's the game that NJ is currently playing with a recent SCOTUS ruling. How? By making it incredibly difficult to get the training that's required whether it's be cost or by scheduling and location. Sure you can get training, but it only happens on the 2nd tuesday of the third week of Smarch, the cost is $1500 paid in cash, for 8 hours, next year you'll have to come in for more training.

Callous? I'd first off suggest that if you think that you sound callous on two different threads on widely different topics you might, just might, actually be singularly lacking in compassion for your fellow humans and unable or unwilling to consider different points of view.

From where I sit you seem perfectly okay with letting people who have no dog in your fight die for your rights. It is one thing to stand up and put your own life on the line for your rights. It is another thing altogether to expect others to die for your rights. It is another thing still to expect children to be sacrificed for your rights. And apparently be okay with it.

It just makes me want to vomit, bluntly.

Sure, I don't know you. Maybe you are an olympic-level athlete with superb kinesthetic sense and a natural shot. Maybe you aren't. But I'd bet any day of the week that one hundred randomly chosen civilian firearm owners are much less skilled and competent with their weapons than one hundred randomly chosen police officers. And we know that police officers make appalling mistakes with their weapons all the time, killing both innocent bystanders, sometimes other police officers, and sometimes themselves. So we can reasonably expect civilians to do worse in the aggregate, and probably much worse. I'd argue that they would do so much worse that any benefit to the common defense or their own defense is probably negligible. You might have a different opinion.

If the statistics aren't lying, your odds of killing yourself with that loaded handgun in the nightstand are approximately five times higher than you killing yourself if you didn't have that handgun. Chances are the most likely thing you'll do with that handgun is nothing at all, the second most likely is you'll use it to kill yourself, and far less likely than either of those you might end up using that sidearm to defend yourself or your family. So can the risk really be worth it?

 

[PedalUma]

a) When someone prepares a gun and is packing it for a trip to get groceries; what goes through their mind? What scenario are they preparing for? b) That is provided that their scenario does not include anyone else headed to the same store and preparing and packing a gun while having violent fantasies? 54 mass shootings in January. 25% of all men go thru some period of mental illness. We don't know which ones but some are preparing guns for groceries right now. I thought I had a right to life and happiness? To freely go about my business in public. And also due process under the Fifth Amendment, meaning some packing vigilante can't just kill me.

 

[tomjasz]

like helmet wearers CC permit holders take more risks. Period.

 

[srolle]

Learn how to dismantle tyranny in 3 simple steps!
1. Do not give up your guns, no matter how convincing those who aim to take them away make the pretext
2. Do not allow the State to educate your children
3. Talk to everyone you are told to hate

 

[PedalUma]

dismantle tyranny

One guy said 'There is nothing as smooth as a lubed tranny.' But he never spoke of dismantling one!

 

[Nomad]

Now you're getting deep into philosophy (among other things).

The situations behind the people who get murdered are what we have to focus on; otherwise we're treating symptoms instead of the illness. I see two roots to the problem.

One root cause is mental illness. There are more issues and situations nowadays because many (most?) states no longer have the treatment facilities they once supported. Instead, arrested individuals who need treatment wind up incarcerated instead of in a place that specializes in treatment. (But we still might ask: why is there a surge in mental illness these days?)

The other (deeper) root cause is spiritual. People who think there is no deity watching their actions, and who think there are no eternal consequences, are far more likely to steal, kill, destroy property, etc. People who do not believe there is a God who loves them but who also expects high moral standards are more prone to be self-centered, self-serving, and uncaring about the needs, wants, and rights of other people. After all, if all we get afterward is the same dirt nap as everyone else, why not swipe that check out of your neighbor's mailbox or shoot the guy who cut you off in traffic, as long as you think you can get away with it? Or maybe you hate yourself and your life so much, you don't even care if you live or die, so why not go out in a "blaze of glory?" Contrast this with folks who believe that they are expected to love God, and love one another as much as they love themselves, and that an eternal penalty awaits those who refuse? We are seeing the societal results of a far lower number of changed hearts and lives.

In the 1950s plenty of people went to bed with their doors unlocked. Neighbors looked out for neighbors. Kids took their guns with them to school so they could go hunting before or after, and there was no "mass shooting" problem. Schoolteachers led the students in prayer every morning and taught the kids Biblical moral values (you know the ones... the values our founders had). Students behaved in class and applied themselves to their lessons with a minimum of cheating. Parents backed all of this up, and gladly.

But starting in the 1960s a series of legal decisions changed all that.

Now we have seen the kids of the '60s grow up and have kids of the '80s, who had kids of the 2000s, all of whom grew up in a different school environment. And this school environment inevitably trickled down into the home environment. Now it is against the law to teach kids in school the real reasons why they should obey their parents, respect teachers and elders, and avoid cheating. Now we lock our doors, bar the windows, and peer out nervously at the miscreants on the sidewalk while hoping they don't take a notion to break in. Kids are more far unruly and disobedient at home. Their parents were raised to not believe in absolute moral standards, so the kids don't believe in them either. It's 'dog eat dog,' everyone for himself, and let the foolish nice guys get the hindmost. I hear from school personnel that even the parents now come into the building exhibiting behavior issues! (Some example they are setting for their children!) Violent video games and movies, along with easily accessible porn which debases the female human being, have contributed to an unconsciously held belief in today's young adults and youths that other people exist on this planet to give them pleasure and to take advantage of.

Should we be surprised at the uptick in mass shootings? Should we be surprised by rampant corruption in government? Should we be surprised by corporate greed? These are the logical outgrowths of excluding from our society the basic moral tenets which glue a society together.

History repeats its self there are good things and bad things about that. So the day will come when doors can be left unlocked again if the earth isn't destroyed first.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

I see three posts of assumptions with zero data to back it up. There was a mall shooting not too long ago that was stopped quickly by a concealed carrier. I don't recall the circumstances, but ht was there, took action and saved lives. Do I fantisize about that being me? Absolutely not. Would I have done the same thing had I been in that situation, yes. But it isn't anything that I focus on. Why are those instances of private citizen stopping such things rare? Because some states have told you that the police will keep you safe at the same time the police have no duty to protect you. The chances of the police stopping a mass shooting with the same speed as the young man in the mall are just as slim as the young man doing it himself, because the police can't be everywhere all the time.

But hey, it's been fun being told that I'm evil, and apparently mentally ill and incompetent by people that know nothing about me by making wild assed assumptions obviously pulled out of someone's ass.

I realize that I have no chance of changing anyone's entrenched positions here, but some of you guys really need take and honest look at your own emotions and how you deal with people.