Front page LA Times today regarding Ebikes

[tomjasz]

It's what majority think.

Sometimes the majority just means all the fools are on the same side.

John Kennedy

 

[mschwett]

Sometimes the majority just means all the fools are on the same side.

John Kennedy

well, and let’s not forget that one of the purposes of representative democracy (and the curious system of checks and balances our country has) is to protect the minority from the persecution of the majority.

but sadly in recent years the minority has managed in some ways to persecute the majority

 

[pmcdonald]

Say what you will about our 1 class system - and I've ranted and advocated plenty about the speed limits, trust me - it keeps it simple. There's no confusion or debate about MUP or trail access. Ebike sales are through the roof here in Australia, so people are amazingly surviving with our restrictions. (Yes, it beggars belief.) I can ride my commuter or emtb anywhere unmotorised users can, no hostility or questions asked.

And if the blanket speed limit proves too slow, it's up to the individual whether they derestrict. I'm not condoning it, but if those users don't act like fools around others they'll likely never have a run in with law enforcement.

 

[AleksR]

Sometimes the majority just means all the fools are on the same side.

John Kennedy

Actually, majority is correct vast majority of the time. That is why we have democracy.

 

[AleksR]

No. Frankly I didn't either as this kind of hairsplitting is silly. Its a simple ebike.

EDIT: I know what the advertising says for this bike. Its typical marketing bullshit. They are using peak values which is not a big surprise that low-end sellers stretch the truth (also the 70 mile range). As we all know a 48v battery and a generic controller can easily hit 1000w, just like most 250w EU-spec motors peak at 500-750.

So again: someone shows me a pic of an ebike that is nothing special, and claims that image alone invokes fear. Nonsense. That comes on the heels of stating the following in no uncertain terms:

That is not an excerpt. That was the whole post. Nonsense.

Unlike you, I don't like to ramble about nonsense. This is a clear cut thing. Throttling among pedestrians is perceived as dangerous. Do a poll and I bet it will show that sentiment.

 

[kneebenderbiker]

I'd like to point out that there's still conflict between horses and cars.

That's true and does not help us at all.

The "perception" is likely to get e-bikes banned in a lot of places (and probably for sale as well) in the coming years. To be blunt, a lot of the posts on this forum, if presented to a board deciding trail access issues and presented out of context and as negatively as possible, would be excellent fuel for such a ban.

Many folks posting here clearly believe that they can just ignore any rules and ride wherever they damned well please. And they are extremely vocal about it. That attitude sits poorly with agencies that set access rules.

If we want e-bikes to be accepted in civilized society a damned good start would be to behave in a civilized fashion.

@Mr. Coffee said; If we want e-bikes to be accepted in civilized society a damned good start would be to behave in a civilized fashion. Good luck with that! We can hope.
I see your point -a lot of the posts on this forum -lack- civilized fashion. Which might help to explain; Many folks posting here clearly believe that they can just ignore any rules and ride wherever they damned well please- I'll add to that - how ever they please ie; speeding, unsafely, etc. They probably are the same in their car/truck/suv.

@JedidiahStolzfus points out; there's still conflict between horses and cars. I see this also when I travel certain areas not far from me. Unfortunately, besides the SUVs and big trucks not slowing to pass or giving much distance when passing the horse drawn wagon or buggy, I often see the "horses" ignoring stop signs, no lights at night, nor mirrors. Luckily I've never seen an accident. When I ride a horse to the trails (I know, different) I stay in the ditch until I have to cross the road- traffic rarely slows and I always wonder why so many honk?

I do not doubt more regulations concerning ebike will be implemented - whether everyone follows them or not I do have doubt.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The ebike explosion comes at a time when many folks think that rules just don't apply to them. For some, it's ideological. Others just can't be bothered.

Either way, this timing isn't going to work out well for ebike access.

Here's what we're up against in a different context: For 3 months in 2022, we rented a condo in a middle-income complex in a middle to upper income part of central San Diego County.

The complex had 2 big communal trash bin garages, each with about 20 bins. More than enough for trash and recycling. The trash bins were dark gray, the recycling bins bright blue, and all were clearly marked either "TRASH" or "RECYCLING" in BIG white letters. No way to mistake which was which. Signage all around spelled out what should and shouldn't go into the recycling bins -- in both pictures and simple bilingual text.

Yet all the recycling bins were at least 50% trash all the time -- even when the trash bins were far from full.

And that's why we can't have nice things like ebike access to MUPs. Also why pedestrians on MUPs are such a hazard to cyclists.

 

[tomjasz]

Welcome to the fold, "Brown Sheep" never complain, they go quietly to their frustration and station. Used to work with Guys like that.

Nah, I won't go there or that far. I'm sorry that my remarks were taken in a way that makes your comment relevant. It's not. This isn't life and death or religion. @Jeremy McCreary
He's a great poster and really polite pleasant fellow as well. Just like many members that are fully or nearly fully able, and tend to see everyone else as like them. Forgetting some are not so able and a little thing to them like a throttle is a HUGE issue for others.

 

[m@Robertson]

Nobody cares what you think. It's what majority think. And you are in minority.

Don't be a fool. You are the lord of your keyboard speaking to a small niche of a niche on a single internet forum. Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding as to what a statistically significant result is. Whats really true is nobody cares what either of us thinks, because we are just bleating ineffectively - in a small, secluded place - and we both love to hear ourselves talk. But only one of us realizes that.

A very thoughtful guy (owner?) at my LBS in Solana Beach, CA thinks that throttles will eventually be banned in California, as they already are in the EU.

I think this is emblematic of a cyclist's perspective and misses an important point: Throttles are a part of a transportation solution that is VERY near and dear to the hearts of the government in power in California, and likely to stay there for the forseeable future, if not the rest of our lifetimes (assuming here that we're all old farts). I am fairly dialed into the cargo bike community and that is a world where you will hear people (besides me, for a change) say things like "Why on Earth would someone want torque sensing when hauling a 100 lb load of groceries and a kid?" or "of course I use a throttle" and nobody spits up on their bib when they hear someone say that.

THOSE are the riders who a legislator (not a city councilman at a monthly town meeting) listen to and cater to. For reasons that are much bigger as part of a much bigger agenda. Cyclists on the other hand have all the baggage that comes with analog cycling, which has everything to do with cycling's past bleeding into determining its future.

If anything, California as the first State to introduce the 3-class system... I'll put it first in line to introduce a Class 4... or something similar where we see some sort of utility level bike codified. That aforementioned cargo bike with a load of groceries and a child is ill-served by a 750w motor and *everyone* knows it. If the goal is to wean Californians off of autos to any degree, the 749w legal limit is not long for this world - which probably has a lot to do with why it has long-since been completely ignored - at both the federal and state level - with zero consequences to any rider or manufacturer, despite everyone knowing what the law says.

EDIT: The one shining example in the USA has already been mentioned: The City of Honolulu. who effectively banned all USA-legal ebikes, although I doubt that was their intention and they probably had to back off once they realized the consequences of their actions.

 

[tomjasz]

Actually, majority is correct vast majority of the time. That is why we have democracy.

Yeah with enough whitewash, you might actually convince a few dolts. There are horrific examples of decisions and policies that carried a majority and were disastrous. Slavery. Holocaust, use of a nuke against civilians, LGBTQ denial of rights... And more, had majority support. We have a Democracy so the minority can enjoy the same rights. I remember when a majority thought SF should go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[m@Robertson]

Actually, majority is correct vast majority of the time. That is why we have democracy.

No it isn't. The concept of the tyranny of the majority is I expect a new one to some. Fortunately this was not true of the statesmen who founded the USA.

Tyranny of the Majority and the US Constitution​

To limit the possibility of a tyranny of the majority in the United States, the framers of the Constitution established a government with checks and balances designed, they claimed, to prevent any one part of the government from becoming too powerful. Additionally, they made it more difficult for Congress to easily ignore the needs of minority groups by requiring the support of a supermajority for major decisions. They also added the Bill of Rights to the Constitution to protect various individual rights of those in minority groups.
Further, the framers of the Constitution created the Electoral College system to theoretically prevent presidential candidates from ignoring the needs of less populous states in favor of highly-populated ones.

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority - Renew Democracy Initiative

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what they are going to have for lunch.” —Benjamin Franklin Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Democracy, Tyranny. From best to worst, this is the order in which regimes degrade, as described by Socrates in Plato’s...

rdi.org

 

[tomjasz]

No it isn't. The concept of the tyranny of the majority is I expect a new one to some. Fortunately this was not true of the statesmen who founded the USA, and they put in many checks and balances expressly to temper majority tyranny.

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority - Renew Democracy Initiative

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what they are going to have for lunch.” —Benjamin Franklin Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Democracy, Tyranny. From best to worst, this is the order in which regimes degrade, as described by Socrates in Plato’s...

rdi.org

Oh, stop with the facts...

 

[Taylor57]

EDIT: The one shining example in the USA has already been mentioned: The City of Honolulu. who effectively banned all USA-legal ebikes, although I doubt that was their intention and they probably had to back off once they realized the consequences of their actions.

Our local laws are pretty relaxed with ebikes for registration purposes we adhere to Federal Standards no ebike can be legally registered if motor output is more than 750w. I only learned of this when I tried to register my Bafang powered emtb, I wrote down on my application 1500w and my application was denied so I filled out another application and listed 500w and the clerk approved it and successfully registered my bike.
[/QUOTE]

So it's registered legally or illegally?

 

[tomjasz]

Our local laws are pretty relaxed with ebikes for registration purposes we adhere to Federal Standards no ebike can be legally registered if motor output is more than 750w. I only learned of this when I tried to register my Bafang powered emtb, I wrote down on my application 1500w and my application was denied so I filled out another application and listed 500w and the clerk approved it and successfully registered my bike.

So it's registered legally or illegally?
[/QUOTE]
Falsified documentation makes it not legally registered. And then announce it on a worldwide forum.

 

[Taylor57]

So it's registered legally or illegally?

Falsified documentation makes it not legally registered. And then announce it on a worldwide forum.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think we can register our ebikes here in CA-legally or illegally. I may be wrong...

 

[PedalUma]

Most People have no inkling of what an "assault gun" is.

I'll jump on this hand grenade. Firstly 'Tactical' means 'Premeditated'. That is what Tacticians do, plan an assault or assaults. These are military Tactical Weapons designed to hunt down and kill as many humans as posable in the shortest period of time, with minor modifications so they can slip thru some loopholes and enter public spaces. A farmer, rancher, or hunter wouldn't need that, ever. What is he going to do, kill a barn full of lambs in seconds flat? Parents in Uvalde could not identify their own children. The kids were blown apart. We have unalienable rights to things such as Life, Liberty, and Happiness in public. Those rights cannot be amended. They are not amendable amendments. Assault weapons are guns that have no legitimate function; their sole purpose is to efficiently take Lives, Liberties, and Happiness's in large numbers, quickly. I don't even want to be in crowds because of this threat. I don't know the count now, but this morning there were 52 mass murder shootings in the US for January, 2023. The rights and lives of those murdered were taken and the poor families and communities are in misery because of guns like these.

 

[AleksR]

Don't be a fool. You are the lord of your keyboard speaking to a small niche of a niche on a single internet forum. Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding as to what a statistically significant result is. Whats really true is nobody cares what either of us thinks, because we are just bleating ineffectively - in a small, secluded place - and we both love to hear ourselves talk. But only one of us realizes that.

I think this is emblematic of a cyclist's perspective and misses an important point: Throttles are a part of a transportation solution that is VERY near and dear to the hearts of the government in power in California, and likely to stay there for the forseeable future, if not the rest of our lifetimes (assuming here that we're all old farts). I am fairly dialed into the cargo bike community and that is a world where you will hear people (besides me, for a change) say things like "Why on Earth would someone want torque sensing when hauling a 100 lb load of groceries and a kid?" or "of course I use a throttle" and nobody spits up on their bib when they hear someone say that.

THOSE are the riders who a legislator (not a city councilman at a monthly town meeting) listen to and cater to. For reasons that are much bigger as part of a much bigger agenda. Cyclists on the other hand have all the baggage that comes with analog cycling, which has everything to do with cycling's past bleeding into determining its future.

If anything, California as the first State to introduce the 3-class system... I'll put it first in line to introduce a Class 4... or something similar where we see some sort of utility level bike codified. That aforementioned cargo bike with a load of groceries and a child is ill-served by a 750w motor and *everyone* knows it. If the goal is to wean Californians off of autos to any degree, the 749w legal limit is not long for this world - which probably has a lot to do with why it has long-since been completely ignored - at both the federal and state level - with zero consequences to any rider or manufacturer, despite everyone knowing what the law says.

EDIT: The one shining example in the USA has already been mentioned: The City of Honolulu. who effectively banned all USA-legal ebikes, although I doubt that was their intention and they probably had to back off once they realized the consequences of their actions.

Put the throttles on the highways. That is where they belong. Let them survive in the jungle. They don't belong with pedestrians.

Yes, correct. It doesn't matter what you and I think. We are N=2. Increase the N and you lose. I have no doubt about it. Throttle your way to a nearby highway. That is where you belong.

 

[PedalUma]

I will very occasionally install a throttle on a bike, but there needs to be a legitimate reason such as disability. And the bike is then limited in speed. This takes a car off the road while giving someone liberty, mobility and fun who, otherwise would be trapped. When a Soviet official visited London, he saw the bread section of a supermarket and asked, who planned this? There were so many selections. In the USSR there might be two selections. Not fifty! The USA is now like the USSR when it comes to its political offerings preselected by big money.

 

[tomjasz]

America is not a democracy. It's a moneymocracy. When you have two dimwits as choices, in a country when there are more choices among toilet paper, you realize that this type of democracy is illusion. But let's not confuse politics with populace. Throttle loses big time and you know it.

ohboy, here comes the lock.

 

[AleksR]

I didn't initially bring politics into this, but if we want to go that route, let's be honest about it.