Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

[dynamic]

FWIW, if your looking at a "regular" bike maybe here is an option to the Priority 600 - Spot Acme. Actually on sale now ($400 0ff). Nothing wrong with the 600 (I'm a fan of Priority bikes and their Apollo is on my short list). But the Acme, while it doesn't have the Pinion, it is belt driven and is about 5#'s lighter (about 25#'s). Spot makes some great bikes. Based in Golden, CO I believe.

Acme

The Acme is a high-end flat-bar commuter with road bike speed, sleek style, and the ultimate urban spec: carbon fork, Gates belt drive, 11-speed Alfine hub, and a dynamo front hub. Lightweight, silent, and fast—almost like it has a motor. Almost.

spotbikes.com

This looks really good. It's almost combination of the apollo and the 600. I haven't heard of this brand before so I would need to research a bit. I also can't find the rear cog so I can't calculate accurate gear inches (I may be blind). But assuming it's the same as the apollo, it may have slightly better low gear ratio than the apollo.

I am not sure I can justify losing the pinion from a hill climbing perspective. (That is honestly why the 600/600x continues to float to the top of the list), but I think the acme would be better than an apollo for me. I think I am going to have the fitter give me their opinion. A position that is comfortable and powerful may be more important than the absolute lowest gear ratio. If they say "go with hoods on a drop bar gravel bike" that's what I will do.

The apollo is also constantly out of stock/pre-order. So, acme wins that issue.

 

[OrTrek]

This looks really good. It's almost combination of the apollo and the 600. I haven't heard of this brand before so I would need to research a bit. I also can't find the rear cog so I can't calculate accurate gear inches (I may be blind). But assuming it's the same as the apollo, it may have slightly better low gear ratio than the apollo.

I am not sure I can justify losing the pinion from a hill climbing perspective. (That is honestly why the 600/600x continues to float to the top of the list), but I think the acme would be better than an apollo for me. I think I am going to have the fitter give me their opinion. A position that is comfortable and powerful may be more important than the absolute lowest gear ratio. If they say "go with hoods on a drop bar gravel bike" that's what I will do.

The apollo is also constantly out of stock/pre-order. So, acme wins that issue.

Per Jenson, they're saying a 24 rear cog. So yes a slightly lower gear ratio/inches than the Apollo (46/24 vs 52/26). That # does match up to the 113 tooth count of the belt. But Spot could tell you.

If you decide on one of the three, I look forward to your thoughts. All three are solid.

 

[dynamic]

If you decide on one of the three, I look forward to your thoughts. All three are solid.

I am basically restraining myself from ordering one of them. I know I won't want to ride it much if my vado gets fixed reasonably soon. But, if I do order one, I will certainly post about it here.

 

[mschwett]

I am basically restraining myself from ordering one of them. I know I won't want to ride it much if my vado gets fixed reasonably soon. But, if I do order one, I will certainly post about it here.

try and ride something comparable up your hills first… although the pinion/priority 600 has a crazy low low gear (17.4 gear inches!??!?) i would not choose a pinion for a climbing bike. without a motor, weight and friction are really the enemy here, and 30lb plus a gearbox - that you really can’t shift well while pedaling - is a tough choice for a climbing rig. pinion (or rohloff!) are for reliability in dusty/muddy/extreme trekking and/or keeping your pants legs super clean while commuting.

very cool bike though.

 

[dynamic]

try and ride something comparable up your hills first… although the pinion/priority 600 has a crazy low low gear (17.4 gear inches!??!?)

There is nothing I have access to that compares to that. And the cool thing about that bike is the upper gear range is still equal to the vado.

I am the weight problem on any bike. The question is really: does an extra 8-12 gear inches make more difference than an extra 8-11 lbs (apollo/diverge evo weight savings) When you weigh 240-250, that’s a 3-4.5% weight difference (less if you include the weight of the bike). It’s water weight shifts. When you weigh 110 with a total bike+rider weight of 132, I can see 10 lbs making more of a difference. But I have no way of personally judging this currently.

As far as I can tell, all igh require you to let off the pedal pressure to shift. Enviolo certainly did. Didn’t need to stop but couldn’t be going full out either. You shouldn’t shift a derailleur full out (but you can). Not sure how much difference the pinion is in that respect.

What I will say: if I can deal with 28 gear inches, I think I would prefer the continuum onyx. I love the CVT and it has the same experience as the current (and I loved that aspect). And it is less money.

I Would love an automatic enviolo geared for hills.

 

[mschwett]

There is nothing I have access to that compares to that. And the cool thing about that bike is the upper gear range is still equal to the vado.

I am the weight problem on any bike. The question is really: does an extra 8-12 gear inches make more difference than an extra 8-11 lbs (apollo/diverge evo weight savings) When you weigh 240-250, that’s a 3-4.5% weight difference (less if you include the weight of the bike). It’s water weight shifts. When you weigh 110 with a total bike+rider weight of 132, I can see 10 lbs making more of a difference. But I have no way of personally judging this currently.

As far as I can tell, all igh require you to let off the pedal pressure to shift. Enviolo certainly did. Didn’t need to stop but couldn’t be going full out either. You shouldn’t shift a derailleur full out (but you can). Not sure how much difference the pinion is in that respect.

What I will say: if I can deal with 28 gear inches, I think I would prefer the continuum onyx. I love the CVT and it has the same experience as the current (and I loved that aspect). And it is less money.

I Would love an automatic enviolo geared for hills.

it all adds up! when i switched from the creo to the aethos, i was really worried that the slightly taller low gear (36:34 vs 42:42) would make my favorite climbs impossible for me. but it turns out the math is correct, and pushing 200lb up a hill IS actually 8% easier than pushing 215lb up a hill, easily exceeding the 6% gearing difference. it’s less work overall and in the end the amount of work you’re doing is based on how much weight you’re pulling up the hill, and how much friction you’re dealing with on the way. the weight difference in your case is proportionally less, but there’s another couple percent or so in friction too, plus the rotational mass of bigger and heavier wheels, tires, pedals, cranks. all i can say is that 5-10% made a huge difference to me, but my output is generally limited by my heart rather than legs.

i’m a wonk/sucker/nerd for the math, but if you know your average power output and the gradients you’re trying to climb, you can very easily determine what the lowest gear you need is. use bikecalculator and keep your speed above 5mph and cadence above 65, solve for either gearing or power at a certain slope.

 

[dynamic]

use bikecalculator and keep your speed above 5mph and cadence above 65, solve for either gearing or power at a certain slope.

Which bikecalculator are you using? (The one I see doesn't account for cadence)

 

[dynamic]

it all adds up! when i switched from the creo to the aethos, i was really worried that the slightly taller low gear (36:34 vs 42:42) would make my favorite climbs impossible for me. but it turns out the math is correct, and pushing 200lb up a hill IS actually 8% easier than pushing 215lb up a hill, easily exceeding the 6% gearing difference. it’s less work overall and in the end the amount of work you’re doing is based on how much weight you’re pulling up the hill, and how much friction you’re dealing with on the way. the weight difference in your case is proportionally less, but there’s another couple percent or so in friction too, plus the rotational mass of bigger and heavier wheels, tires, pedals, cranks. all i can say is that 5-10% made a huge difference to me, but my output is generally limited by my heart rather than legs.

i’m a wonk/sucker/nerd for the math, but if you know your average power output and the gradients you’re trying to climb, you can very easily determine what the lowest gear you need is. use bikecalculator and keep your speed above 5mph and cadence above 65, solve for either gearing or power at a certain slope.

Sanity check: I combined bikecalculator and sheldon brown's gear calculator to see if I can handle an average 6% grade at my mFTP (as declared by WKO). In this case 177 ftp. That puts me at 4.72 mph according to bike calculator at a 6% average grade (which my giant climb on friday was that, but had a max of 12.5% grade) and 245lb me + 31 lb bike. To maintain 5mph at 60RPM requires gear 4 on the p1.12 gearbox with 650b tires (2 inch). This should push my current FTP a bit, but it means that a 28 gear inch bike will get me to 5mph up a 6% grade working at FTP.

Sane? Maybe?

 

[mschwett]

Which bikecalculator are you using? (The one I see doesn't account for cadence)

you have to combine two modules, checking cadence once you’ve solved for speed. which i see that you did!

 

[dynamic]

you have to combine two modules, checking cadence once you’ve solved for speed. which i see that you did!

Then I think I got it. so, depending on how I look at it, I may *really need* the pinion currently to handle the average hills here. Gonna do some exploration of what I need temporarily for the 12% grades that are part of every hill.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Of course derailleurs are so obsolete

 

[dynamic]

Of course derailleurs are so obsolete

Indeed they are. None of the derailleur bikes mentioned here come anywhere near the pinion gear range. I would have to change chain rings and sacrifice top end gearing.

 

[dynamic]

Ok, so near as I can tell, I could handle a 6% grade on some of these bikes at FTP. The problem is that is the *average* grade. A 1 mile chunk (selecting for the most difficult section of my 1.7 mile ride home from town) is actually an average of 7.2 % grade. That's average, there are pieces of 12% grade and 3% grade to make that average.

So, controlling for speed I would have to generate 365 watts during those 12% grades. This is sub 1 minute efforts according to my power curve in WKO (maybe 45 seconds or so). Probably not maintainable for the length of those grade sections. This means my speed will drop below 5mph. If you control for FTP, then my speed would drop to 2.5 mph which is slower than 60RPM produces on the pinion lowest gear. If I were burnt out, this would be a very slow climb home. (like, just walk the damn thing slow)

Obviously, I can generate far more power than FTP for periods of time. But, I think the above analysis indicates that the ride home may very well be at or above threshold for me. Probably a superb ride for pushing up my vo2max and anaerobic capacity.

Psychologically, 5mph is depressing. When I am burnt out to that point on my vado on big hills, I am pretty "done" for the day. 6-7mph is kind of the low limit before being physically and mentally overwhelmed...

Anywho, seems like any near term purchase should be the pinion bike.

 

[mschwett]

weight (and friction) really add up. take a look at how much of a difference 10lb of bike and road tires make! 183 watts vs 210 watts. although i love IGH and similar for commuting (or long distance adventure touring, if i had time!) a better climbing rig is 2x with a wide range cassette, IMO. a 500% plus range is easy to get with 1x (eg 10-51) or 2x (11-42 and 46-30). lighter, less friction, easier to fix when something goes wrong

the bottom line on those very steep road grades is that you’ll have to get your power up and weight down to do it at any reasonable speed. 10% is seriously steep, 330 watts on big tires with a 280lb total load; accept 4mph for short periods, a lighter bike, lighter/skinnier tires and you’ll get that number down to 240 but that’s still a lot of power to be barely making it. that’s why i went with a very, very light bike and lost a few LBs before tackling similar grades without a motor!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

None of the derailleur bikes mentioned here come anywhere near the pinion gear range.

And what about the pinion efficiency? Weight?

 

[dynamic]

And what about the pinion efficiency? Weight?

Pinion is 90-91% efficient. Perfectly maintained derailleur is 95-96% (enviolo is ~85% and rohloff at 94%). Specifically against the diverge evo which is the largest gear ratio bike of this type I can find (mountain bikes have lower gear ranges but not as good geometry). I didn't look at 14K s-works to see if they have a bigger range.

If the goal is to "get up the hill" then the pinion wins. Because it will enable you to maintain a higher cadence more easily *even* with the extra weight. Essentially, the pinion has several more gears below the diverge minimum.

Example:

191 watts for diverge vs 206 watts for priority 600. Using 22 and 32 lb weights for these bikes and their relative efficiencies and 5.0 speed on 6% grade. To get to 5mph @ 80 rpm, I am in the diverge lowest gear. Pinion has 2 more gears available. This should mean climbing will be easier and/or faster on the priority 600 on steeper grades. Or, the pinion can handle a *slightly* steeper grade given the same rider.

It's possible I messed up the math.

See for yourself.

 

[dynamic]

Oh, and to be clear, both bikes could be improved/changed via cog changes. A smaller chainring on the diverge would bring it to 600's gear inches. In which case, it should have the advantage.

I still want belt. So pinion or rohloff are *very appealing* to me.

 

[mschwett]

Pinion is 90-91% efficient. Perfectly maintained derailleur is 95-96% (enviolo is ~85% and rohloff at 94%). Specifically against the diverge evo which is the largest gear ratio bike of this type I can find (mountain bikes have lower gear ranges but not as good geometry). I didn't look at 14K s-works to see if they have a bigger range.

If the goal is to "get up the hill" then the pinion wins. Because it will enable you to maintain a higher cadence more easily *even* with the extra weight. Essentially, the pinion has several more gears below the diverge minimum.

Example:

191 watts for diverge vs 206 watts for priority 600. Using 22 and 32 lb weights for these bikes and their relative efficiencies and 5.0 speed on 6% grade. To get to 5mph @ 80 rpm, I am in the diverge lowest gear. Pinion has 2 more gears available. This should mean climbing will be easier and/or faster on the priority 600 on steeper grades. Or, the pinion can handle a *slightly* steeper grade given the same rider.

It's possible I messed up the math.

See for yourself.

the relationship when climbing slowly is very direct - if you lose 5% more the power to the drivetrain, it’s essentially the equivalent of 5% more weight. so while the low gear on the pinion bike is indeed lower, it needs to be 10% lower just to make up the lost power. 5% weight and 5% friction. and unlike gearing, which can be adapted to through gaining strength to pedal at a 10% lower cadence, 10% more weight/friction is just 10% of your power lost. 200w vs 180w to go the same speed. big heavy tires spinning around could be another 5% or more, and you’ve gone from “i can get up that hill with a conventional drivetrain to “i need the crazy low gear of the pinion to offset all the penalties it’s imposed on me!”

i have always found reality to satisfyingly match these physics/maths, and i was in fact 10% faster up the big hills on my 14lb aethos than i was on my 30lb creo, despite the creo having a 10% lower low gear.

the 38/50 low gear on the diverge corresponds to almost 70rpm at 4mph. 200w of leg power will get you up a 9% grade at 4mph on that bike. it will take 220w to do the same thing on the pinion bike at the same speed.

 

[mschwett]

191 watts for diverge vs 206 watts for priority 600. Using 22 and 32 lb weights for these bikes and their relative efficiencies and 5.0 speed on 6% grade. To get to 5mph @ 80 rpm, I am in the diverge lowest gear. Pinion has 2 more gears available. This should mean climbing will be easier and/or faster on the priority 600 on steeper grades. Or, the pinion can handle a *slightly* steeper grade given the same rider.

math looks about right, but until the grade gets too steep for you to climb it at all on the diverge (due to cadence dropping too much) that 10% difference between the two will make it EASIER to climb on the diverge. so, how often do you climb sustained grades of >8% ? if very often and for more than short stretches, you probably need the crazy low gear of the pinion and just have to eat the extra weight and friction. and you get a belt too!

but otherwise, the lighter, more efficient bike will be easier to ride up that hill.

i may have mentioned before, but i really want to build a titanium pinion + belt + rear hub drive gravel/commuter with a bottle battery. o don’t care about range, just need the punch of a motor for occasional super steep grades and the weight penalty of a four year old on the back

 

[dynamic]

so, how often do you climb sustained grades of >8%

Exactly. Every ride. Assuming sustained means periods of 8, 10 or 12 % that last longer than my anaerobic energy does (and doesn't get a downhill section to replenish). The big climb the other day with 1,100 feet of elevation had multiple stretches of 9-10% grade over a half mile (total climb was 4.5 miles). A half mile is likely longer than my anaerobic energy can last to keep the bike at 5 miles per hour. But I am not certain. My ride home has a 2,400 foot section of 8.8% average grade. This is the hill I must be able to ride or a regular bike is pointless.

but otherwise, the lighter, more efficient bike will be easier to ride up that hill.

Not so sure. Remember, the watt numbers account for both the *weight* and the *efficiency* of the respective bikes. The bike calculator iphone app has an additional drivetrain efficiency slider which was used and increased the power difference in watts from 9 to 15 in favor of diverge. So the only thing not accounted for is the fact that the pinion still has more gear range to hold the same cadence (but not the same speed). Essentially, if these numbers are above FTP (which they are), it will be tough to maintain the diverge. I haven't tried with a light rider. But I would bet it makes a much greater difference.

Put another way, a half mile at 8.8% grade requires 262 watts to maintain that 5.0 on the diverge for 6 minutes with nowhere to go for relief. My power curve (according to WKO) puts that kind of effort at one minute and thirty seconds until I fade.

The pinion really should win around this area (for me) unless/until/if my FTP is 275 or so (unlikely). Then the diverge *might* be a better option. What's more likely is I will lose weight and get my power to weight ratio under control *and* gain some FTP. Getting out of "you suck" ftp (maybe 225) + a bunch of weight loss would work.