Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

[dynamic]

I tested the surly ghost grappler today. And while it is certainly not currently the bike for me, I learned some important things. The most important is I *should* be ok with the gear ratio. I took it up some 9% average grade with max of 12.6% according to the route recorded by wahoo roam v2. And I didn't die. I likely could have gone further. I didn't because I thought I might be testing a second bike and didn't want to use up my energy. Now, I haven't biked in a week, so I was well rested. But, I think it still would have been fine.

The surly gets a bit wiggly when going slow uphill (or, I never go that slow on the vado. you know. ever). I also did not like the hoods or drop position. Hoods, much like the sql lab are fine until going downhill. In addition, the brakes are hard to use with my short stubby fingers (not a problem on sqlab inner bar ends). Numbness came on strong as soon as I went downhill. The mechanical disc are clearly inferior, and I didn't really even try the dropper post. I was not clipped in or using any of my own stuff. So, unless this bike is dramatically better in geometry, the 600/600x should be fine. It did weigh a couple lbs less than the pinion options.

The wahoo pushed it automatically to *ALL MY SERVICES* (well, except garmin). I used it in my pocket. I am not sure it does apple health "correctly" until I get a heart rate connected (I stupidly didn't use my polar verity whatever which arrived yesterday).

After my feedback, the bike store thinks I should go mountain bike territory. Like niner sir 9 or a fuse 27.5 sport (or some salsa). I didn't try them because they didn't have the low gear ratio models in my size. They think the gear ratio and suspension stuff will be better for me than the geometry. Especially given I would love to have suspension.

I also looked at some fat bikes. That is an interesting idea. A completely different biking style might be fun. Especially if I have to shorten routes anyway due to weather. Gonna try riding a few. Some of these bikes cost a chunk less than the 600 or 600x. It *might* be worth dealing with chain for a fun bike that gets up hills *and* costs less.

 

[mschwett]

I tested the surly ghost grappler today. And while it is certainly not currently the bike for me, I learned some important things. The most important is I *should* be ok with the gear ratio. I took it up some 9% average grade with max of 12.6% according to the route recorded by wahoo roam v2. And I didn't die. I likely could have gone further. I didn't because I thought I might be testing a second bike and didn't want to use up my energy. Now, I haven't biked in a week, so I was well rested. But, I think it still would have been fine.

The surly gets a bit wiggly when going slow uphill (or, I never go that slow on the vado. you know. ever). I also did not like the hoods or drop position. Hoods, much like the sql lab are fine until going downhill. In addition, the brakes are hard to use with my short stubby fingers (not a problem on sqlab inner bar ends). Numbness came on strong as soon as I went downhill. The mechanical disc are clearly inferior, and I didn't really even try the dropper post. I was not clipped in or using any of my own stuff. So, unless this bike is dramatically better in geometry, the 600/600x should be fine. It did weigh a couple lbs less than the pinion options.

The wahoo pushed it automatically to *ALL MY SERVICES* (well, except garmin). I used it in my pocket. I am not sure it does apple health "correctly" until I get a heart rate connected (I stupidly didn't use my polar verity whatever which arrived yesterday).

After my feedback, the bike store thinks I should go mountain bike territory. Like niner sir 9 or a fuse 27.5 sport (or some salsa). I didn't try them because they didn't have the low gear ratio models in my size. They think the gear ratio and suspension stuff will be better for me than the geometry. Especially given I would love to have suspension.

I also looked at some fat bikes. That is an interesting idea. A completely different biking style might be fun. Especially if I have to shorten routes anyway due to weather. Gonna try riding a few. Some of these bikes cost a chunk less than the 600 or 600x. It *might* be worth dealing with chain for a fun bike that gets up hills *and* costs less.

good data point - did you need the lowest gear on the ghost to get up that hill? that bike practically has MTB gearing, 32 up front and 11-48 in the back. a bit less than 19 gear inches, it looks like? pretty close to the 17ish of the lowest gear of the pinion!

 

[dynamic]

good data point - did you need the lowest gear on the ghost to get up that hill? that bike practically has MTB gearing, 32 up front and 11-48 in the back. a bit less than 19 gear inches, it looks like? pretty close to the 17ish of the lowest gear of the pinion!

Need may be a strong word. I definitely used it. In the 12% sections need was likely accurate. This was not a long ride.

Some of the fat tire bikes may have even lower gearing. Haven’t properly done it with tire sizes but I think the mukluk may get under 16.

May do another test run today. If I can get away from kids for a bit.

 

[dynamic]

Bike shop says it is fixed. Just a bad cable! Going to check it out tomorrow!

 

[dynamic]

So, it's possibly not fixed. It still drops data constantly on the speed sensor, but isn't creating immediate system errors. The problem is, it is possible it is the watch. The fit files generated from the watch vs wahoo are pretty different. I am not sure the wahoo uses the speed sensor from the bike. If it uses gps, that would account for the difference. They also report speed using different fields in the fit files.

I turned around and went back to the bike shop when it started auto-pausing constantly starting around 3:20.

I plan on pairing my garmin with another vado at the LBS and going for the same seven minute ride. That should answer if it's the watch/combination. If it does it on any other vado, then yet another garmin device isn't worth existing in the world. If it doesn't do it, then they need to keep "fixing" my bike.

 

[dynamic]

Ok, so, my bike is generating a ridiculous amount of sensor drops now. What's interesting is a new bike in the shop also generates *some*. And both do it most with the assist level at zero (motor off). Now, my bike did not generate *any* with the wahoo roam. but I have yet to confirm that the wahoo depends *solely* on the speed sensor. So, at least *some* of this could be garmin not working (maybe all of it at this point).

They have replaced all the cables. I am picking up my bike (again) tomorrow and will try the ride again. I am going to use the watch and the wahoo. But if the bike isn't shutting down, and wahoo will gather the data without issues, I am likely calling this issue closed.

I attached the fit file explorer graph view for the respective speed fields (one is speed, the other is enhanced_speed for bigger numbers ). See if you can figure out which one is garmin and which is wahoo.

 

[dynamic]

I have my bike back. Garmin may be the problem. It is *possible* that the underlying bike issue has been fixed by the original faulty cable replacement. I have confirmed that wahoo auto-pause responds to the speed sensor when connected. (lifted back tire, spun the wheel, stopped it, auto pause kicked in, spun the wheel again, and it resumed).

Anywho, garmin just hit my ignore list. Their devices have all had stupidity associated with them. I can't for the life of me understand how garmin could be dropping speed sensor data *but not the others*. I get interference killing records from reaching garmin. But having it *always* be speed and *only* to the garmin really doesn't make sense to me. (I am speaking as a software engineer with network engineering knowledge, not as an expert with ant+. maybe there is an issue there beyond my knowledge). I know all the sensors broadcast ant+, but I don't know the broadcast point on the bike. Maybe direct line of sight is "through" me for that sensor source and the watch. And it simply can't deal with that.

Whatever it is, I am not convinced it's a symptom of some other bike issue. It *could* be, but it seems less likely as things stand today.

Wahoo got the summit climbing ability on halloween. And, to be honest, I don't love it so far. The primary problem is it expands climbs too far. so, for RWGPS a "climb" is found when the grade is steeper. This has the effect of cutting off 2-5 miles of low grade climbing before the real thing starts. *TO ME* it would be helpful to break these longer climbs up into shorter steeper climbs. *I* don't care much about under 5% average.

Put another way, I have routes that show climbs as 7 miles long on wahoo. 4.5 miles will bring down the total average to 3.5% and obviously over 500 meters. I only care about the 2.5 mile segment where the grade averages 8-9% (with 12-14% pieces). the rest of it is irrelevant.

if they let you customize *what* a climb is, this will be a huge win. It's otherwise implemented quite nicely.

On these test rides I have been using the polar verity sense heart rate monitor. The *only* thing I don't like much about it is that it's rechargeable and is annoying about how it goes about it. I now need a usb charging station to charge my roam and heart rate monitor out by my bike. And the verity uses this cradle requiring you to take it out of the band and put it in this plastic thing with a usb plug on it that may block other usb plugs. *ugh*. It honestly may take just as much time as the chest strap. But it *is* more comfortable and easier to put on.

Another comment on wahoo, apparently, it will navigate without starting the ride. And I forgot to push start on the way home for a bit. so I don't have wahoo data to compare to the garmin data when the garmin was failing today.

I also have the sq-lab saddle on the bike. But I have not gone on longer rides yet. It *seems* quite good. In fact, I simply didn't think about it.

I am looking at doing a custom bike build with the bike shop. If my vado is working correctly, I will not be buying a bike instantly and put some more time into figuring out exactly what I do want.

Hopefully going for a better ride this afternoon. But not looking good at the moment.

 

[dynamic]

And now it looks like something in the drivetrain is slipping. Checking tension and seeing if I can reproduce consistently.

*sigh*

 

[Hitch]

Oh man. Sorry to hear. The frustration level must be getting up there.

 

[dynamic]

Oh man. Sorry to hear. The frustration level must be getting up there.

You have no idea. On the plus side, had a jacketless ride today. And it was glorious.

I haven’t had the energy to write about it. Tomorrow I am taking my laptop and camping out at the coffee shop while that look at my bike.

 

[dynamic]

Lot of stuff. Short versions:

bike is still slipping a lot. (specialized wants to send out a new hub)
fitter removed the kinekt stem.
Right hand numbness was gone. Left hand was very present.
still not thrilled with the sq-lab 602.
garmin watch has been returned.
wahoo has some interesting screw ups. But not nearly as bad as the edge 1040 or forerunner. (and probably mostly avoidable)
41.2 miles ridden today over 3 rides. I am exhausted.
Love having my bike back. Hate that it doesn't work well.
I used 73% battery and forgot to charge while at the fitter. (and didn't need to!) Means a 56 mile range under these conditions.
A carver custom pinion bike has been suggested (and I like the idea a lot)

Probably more stuff I am forgetting.

 

[dynamic]

After a short e-mail exchange, specialized has graciously offered a refund on the bike. I have accepted. The bike has been returned to the LBS. I am honestly surprised, and quite impressed that they are willing to do that. Give credit where credit is due.

Short version: I simply got tired of spending months debugging the bike. If I were sure I would have a fully functional bike at the end of it, I would never have returned it. As it is, I don't know what is causing so many issues with e-bikes for me, and until I do, and can solve it, it simply isn't worth the hassle.

I don't know where I am going from here. But, I suspect it won't be an e-bike.

 

[Hitch]

Wow! What an experience you had. Have to agree that it's very nice that Specialized offered to refund you for the bike. I wish that you didn't have the experience. Good luck with your search!

 

[dynamic]

Wow! What an experience you had. Have to agree that it's very nice that Specialized offered to refund you for the bike. I wish that you didn't have the experience. Good luck with your search!

I hope you experience none of this. I suspect my roads, weight and riding style are creating a combined perfect storm of stress that is degrading these bikes faster than “normal”.

Good luck with yours! Feel free to ask me questions.

 

[mschwett]

a strange and surprising turn of events !

i strongly suspect that you'd have no mechanical problems with the more traditional drivetrain of something like a tero or non-cvt/belt/igh vado, or levo. people beat the $*(#*(@ out of those things and they work just fine.

 

[dynamic]

a strange and surprising turn of events !

i strongly suspect that you'd have no mechanical problems with the more traditional drivetrain of something like a tero or non-cvt/belt/igh vado, or levo. people beat the $*(#*(@ out of those things and they work just fine.

But what if this is simply the equivalent of abusing a cassette? It may simply be that whatever I am doing is the equivalent of hard shifting a cassette in terms of some gearing somewhere in the drive train. Switching to chain would suddenly reveal that because some sprockets would show unusual wear (I would think). The difference being fixing a cassette / sprocket is comparatively cheap. *AND*, it can be addressed by not shifting like an idiot. Plus, we have decades of dealing with it.

This is assuming the motor isn't part of the issue. If it is, then some of those bikes have the same motor, and I am not sure what would be different about that in my use case. Would the change to chain change so much that it prevents some issue I am having with the motor? No idea.

I think the underlying problem isn't that belt/igh isn't good, it's that it's not *known*. Right now, this bike has an unknown issue. It *could* be the pawls in the hub. It *could* be something inside the motor. It *could* be the automatic shifter. It could be some combination. But, there is one thing I *do* know. Unless I just had the dumb luck of a lemon, something I am doing almost certainly *caused* the problem. And nothing I am doing should be degrading this level of bike this quickly.

So, yeah, I think the chain version maybe could work better. But, what I need to know is *why*. And that information is sadly lacking. In 3 e-bikes with similar problems, I don't have an explanation (and probably never will).

 

[mschwett]

the beauty of the chain, of course, is the extreme simplicity and obviousness of any problem. it also provides tactile and auditory feedback - people quickly learn not to shift while going uphill in turbo and standing on the pedals. it becomes second nature to ease off just a bit, you don’t even think about it.

with the belt and CVT, who knows how much it’s able to take into account in deciding when and how to “shift” and who knows what kind of forces are transmitted from where to where when a relatively heavy rider and a powerful motor are pedaling hard on a bumpy road.

as for the specialized motor, when paired with a chain and traditional rear drivetrain, we know it’s incredibly durable. riders of all kinds beat the absolute crap out of their full power Levos. i’ve seen those things banging UP rock gardens at full power.

i have a commuter bike with an automatically shifting four speed IGH, simple tech by comparison to the CVT. front hub motor, so zero connection between motor power and the transmission. i weigh 180-200lb. the IGH and/or eshifter failed 4 times, i think. no other bicycle component i’ve had has been so unreliable, although i will say the ones that failed failed fairly quickly, and the pair since then seem fine. i also now know intuitively when it’s going to shift, and i ease off for a second.

i wonder how much specialized tested this system, how hard, what kind of riders and rides, for how long. i think my next build is going to be a pinion and rear hub drive. motor and transmission isolated

 

[dynamic]

i think my next build is going to be a pinion

You and me both.

I think I also have a problem in that most people want e-bikes to make it easier and do less work to get where they are going. By contrast, I am pushing myself harder and harder. The e-bike simply enables that effort to feel like I am accomplishing so much more. I can completely believe that IGH/belt drive is better suited for that moderate rider that isn’t going to try and make a new peak watt record because a hill looks fun. Every hill. Every ride.

I still hesitate to go chain. But it certainly opens up a flood gate of options.

 

[mschwett]

…
I think I also have a problem in that most people want e-bikes to make it easier and do less work to get where they are going. By contrast, I am pushing myself harder and harder. ..

same here! but that’s why i went with a bike with such a small motor, small battery, light weight overall etc. so nowhere near the same load problems.

 

[dynamic]

same here! but that’s why i went with a bike with such a small motor, small battery, light weight overall etc. so nowhere near the same load problems.

I would genuinely love a smaller lighter bike. It just still has to be manageable on these hills. If I could deal with drop bars, the creo sl would be very appealing. Not sure it's enough to get over the chain. But still appealing.