Do ebikes need more than 5 speeds?
- Thread starter Cyklefanatic
- Start date
On a mid drive ebike, it seems to me like this riding method would put undue stress on the motor and chain. My Gazelle Arroyo has a Shimano Nexus 8 speed IGH shifter, and I regularly use all 8 gears and try to keep a steady cadence for the varying riding conditions. I could probably get by with fewer gears, but would not want to go below 5. The Shimano 8 speed paired with the Bosch Performance Line motor seems to be a well balanced combination for the type of riding I do.
PaD
Well-Known Member
I’m very fond of the SLX/XT 11-speed shifting and cassette on my Vado. I generally use 9 gears, 2 - 10, and I like that the gear ratios are close. Using the gears help me keep a cadence I like and I can also ride in Ecomode for 90% of my riding.
@Cyklefanatic Maybe you should get a 48 tooth chain wheel for your Vado?
@Cyklefanatic Maybe you should get a 48 tooth chain wheel for your Vado?
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Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Somewhere in my internet readings I've come across an article on 'smart assist' systems for bikes. Seems they're in development and should be available sometime ion the near future.
Being able to keep up the same cadence and pedal force on the flats and hills, without having to change the power level would be awesome.
Being able to keep up the same cadence and pedal force on the flats and hills, without having to change the power level would be awesome.
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
I went back and did a web search. I wonder if this system automatically changes the power levels for the rider.
www.giant-bicycles.com
A Guide To Smart Assist | Giant Bicycles UK
Learn more about Giant Smart Assist PedalPlus pedal technology powering our E-Bikes. Official Site.
www.giant-bicycles.com
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Yes, it seems so. I only wonder how good it works.
I'd rather like an electronically controlled drive-train to help the rider maintain constant cadence at given assistance level.
I'd rather like an electronically controlled drive-train to help the rider maintain constant cadence at given assistance level.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
It really depends on the terrain you ride in.
I ride in rugged mountains and routinely have more than 4000 feet of elevation gain in a day. Sometimes as much as 6000 feet.
Most e-bike users on this forum would be reduced to incoherent gibbering if they tried to do that on a 5-speed or 7-speed bike.
In late 2018 on the southern Oregon Coast (where the days were easier and the grades were gentler, but still 2000+ feet per day) I encountered an older gentleman from Florida on a conversion e-bike who was in a world of hurt, because he had a 1x drive train with not enough gears and the gears he had were too damned high. He wasn't having very much fun.
I am all for having fun, and I can ride cool rides in cool places with more gears. 'nuff said.
I ride in rugged mountains and routinely have more than 4000 feet of elevation gain in a day. Sometimes as much as 6000 feet.
Most e-bike users on this forum would be reduced to incoherent gibbering if they tried to do that on a 5-speed or 7-speed bike.
In late 2018 on the southern Oregon Coast (where the days were easier and the grades were gentler, but still 2000+ feet per day) I encountered an older gentleman from Florida on a conversion e-bike who was in a world of hurt, because he had a 1x drive train with not enough gears and the gears he had were too damned high. He wasn't having very much fun.
I am all for having fun, and I can ride cool rides in cool places with more gears. 'nuff said.
Asher
Well-Known Member
I don't see why it would be that difficult to make, just seems the problem is the small ebike brands don't sell enough volume to cover any real development, and the big brands just see ebikes as cash cows while they put their real energy towards racing bikes; they'll throw some workers at the frame, but little more. For instance, I bought a manual hybrid bike, and the most interesting bikes were *not* from the big name brands. At best, the small ebike brands will have one area of innovation, like Stromer and its connectivity.
How I see it working:
A. Training phase: bike senses your typical cruising power input, using the torque sensor, over time. Or you simply put in the value. (Requires a torque sensor either way)
B. Operational phase: assist keeps you at your desired cruising speed when your pedal input is at or above the typical pedal input, and proportionally cuts assist as it falls below that threshold.
Giant's tech sounds very vague.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I don't think the proposed "smart assist" technologies really solve the same problem as gears do, nor were they intended to.
Smart assist technologies are more likely to make the operation of an e-bike more efficient, and will likely help you ride further with less effort, may potentially increase the life of the motor, and could also make the "ride feel" more natural. But it can't fix the basic mechanics. If you are going slowly, either because you are going up a steep hill or into a strong headwind, you want a lower gear. If you are going very fast you want a high gear. Very few drivetrain systems for bicycles have a small number of gears with a wide enough range to cover those cases. And from a practical standpoint such a hypothetical system with very few wide-range gears might work well in a test situation, they will work less well when the cyclist is tired and not at all when they are very tired or the riding is otherwise atrocious.
Smart assist technologies are more likely to make the operation of an e-bike more efficient, and will likely help you ride further with less effort, may potentially increase the life of the motor, and could also make the "ride feel" more natural. But it can't fix the basic mechanics. If you are going slowly, either because you are going up a steep hill or into a strong headwind, you want a lower gear. If you are going very fast you want a high gear. Very few drivetrain systems for bicycles have a small number of gears with a wide enough range to cover those cases. And from a practical standpoint such a hypothetical system with very few wide-range gears might work well in a test situation, they will work less well when the cyclist is tired and not at all when they are very tired or the riding is otherwise atrocious.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
I disagree with those who say wide range of gears and big number of cogs are unnecessary. Giants such as Shimano or SRAM know what they are doing. I agree with Mr. Coffe, PaD, and smorgasbord. Big number of cogs is meant among others to make perceived changes during shifting small. Otherwise you would be spinning in one gear and mashing in the next one before the motor would be able to help and increase the bike speed
Brrrrrr. Just got back from a ride that was too long for me. It's been winter and I haven't been riding much.
My bike has 8 gears and 4 assist levels. I live in a valley. The good riding is up at a higher elevation. So, I start up the road in 5th gear and on level 2. I'm soon downshifting and upping the level. On Fart Car corner I kick the bike into turbo to get around before getting run over. The climb lessens, so I shift up and put the assist back down a notch. I start up another grade and repeat, but no turbo needed. The ride becomes rolly, so I shift and change assist levels to what I need.
That's how I ride around here. I could not make it up some of the hills if I couldn't get in a low gear.
It is a mystery to me why there seems to be a fart car coming from behind on that corner every time I ride it. Traffic was pretty non existent today too. Hmmmm.
My bike has 8 gears and 4 assist levels. I live in a valley. The good riding is up at a higher elevation. So, I start up the road in 5th gear and on level 2. I'm soon downshifting and upping the level. On Fart Car corner I kick the bike into turbo to get around before getting run over. The climb lessens, so I shift up and put the assist back down a notch. I start up another grade and repeat, but no turbo needed. The ride becomes rolly, so I shift and change assist levels to what I need.
That's how I ride around here. I could not make it up some of the hills if I couldn't get in a low gear.
It is a mystery to me why there seems to be a fart car coming from behind on that corner every time I ride it. Traffic was pretty non existent today too. Hmmmm.
Asher
Well-Known Member
No need if the motor steps up the assistance to stabilize your speed and fill the 'gap'.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Bad on the battery and drive-train. More motor power is not the answer. How the power is used is the right answer.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
That will work just great as long as you have infinite power and battery capacity.
I went back and did a web search. I wonder if this system automatically changes the power levels for the rider.
A Guide To Smart Assist | Giant Bicycles UK
Learn more about Giant Smart Assist PedalPlus pedal technology powering our E-Bikes. Official Site.
These systems are attempts by the manufacturers to produce a more " natural" feel , or at least a more sophisticated and easy cycling experience. You'll notice that most of these manufacturers keep the option of manual assistance control as well.
Having ridden both shimano and bosch motors with their " trail" modes I'm unconvinced - yes, they are simpler and most people I know just leave their bikes in auto when it's available. But it feels sluggish after owning a 2018 giant with the pwx motor.....I'll know mire in a few weeks after my 2020 motor is fitted
It's actually yamaha tech , but essentially a refinement of an already excellent product. They've added sensors to detect incline and acceleration so that data can be added to the existing ( excellent) torque, cadence, and speed sensors.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
I'm with the cadence crowd. I like to maintain a more or less steady cadence. There's a window that is most efficient for how I ride. I shift gears more than changing PAS levels. I like having the 2nd gear for quick starts at traffic lights. I've only used the 1st gear for steep hills, which we don't have much of around here so that's very occasional. But I was glad it was there, the handful of times when I needed it.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
when I tested my first bikes years of cadence on both road bikes and recumbents it was automatic. the rear wheel drive bike I tested just kept going faster when I tried to keep my cadence. glad I went with mid drive.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Regarding the rear wheel drive comment, many report the same impression. After riding my own and a few others, I have to wonder about the PAS level they (you) were in when this occurred (going too fast)? Most of us have learned that if the bike is going too fast at any particular cadence level, you just switch to a lower PAS. If you're already in PAS 1 and it's going too fast, the softeware calibration is garbage, which is something you might see most often on really inexpensive bikes. You SHOULD be able to ride as low as 5 or 6 mph (not much over a walking speed) pretty easily in PAS 1.
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