Curious how others feel about class 3 speeds

[Mr. Coffee]

You also have to consider the advantages of bike balance and gearing... again how many brands offer an EMTB with a hub drive? I have an open mind...

I'd say that the vast majority of e-mtb sold and made are really more accurately described as "e-bikes with styling of a mountain bike" rather than actual mountain bikes. Bluntly if you took any of those bikes on a serious mountain bike trail (e.g. a double diamond run at Whistler) you'd end up with a streak of bike parts and gibbets on the trail in short order.

A lot of this comes down to bike geometry because most e-mtb have longer chain stays (and are largely forced to because of the added torque of the motor) which greatly limits their maneuverability, especially at speed. So on a difficult trail where you absolutely need to get air to get over and around obstacles you will inevitably miss tight corners if you go too fast. If you don't get that speed and momentum you will either messily crash into those obstacles or become axle dressing when some real mountain bikers catch up to you.

To be fair I live in an area with a fair number of super-athletes and I'd still say the vast majority of "mountain bikers" I see are riding on roads, and usually very easy roads at that.

 

[J.R.]

Even within the mountain bike industry they've segmented it.

All mountain
XC cross country
Trail
Downhill
Enduro

There might even be more, I can't keep up with it. Friends often ask me about my biking and I usually say I ride cross-country... sort of. I ride a lot of trails, dirt roads, farm tracks, mountain fire roads, dirt rail trail, dirt canal towpath. Once in awhile a paved rail trail or a country road. I don't say XC because those men and women are usually racing when they say XC. Racing their time or other bikers. Most eMTB riders don't use their bikes close to their design parameters, much less a serious mtb. We have a lot of fun though. The fun factor is off the charts. Feels 35 again

 

[FlatSix911]

Interesting video comparison... keep an open mind through the video to the end.

 

[Chris Hammond]

No need to get offended. I specifically said legally, and while I don't know where you live or what the law says there, here in VA that is a totally correct statement. Here, 3 types of electric assist bikes are actually considered e-bikes under the law: class 1, no throttle, limited to 20mph. Class 2, throttle permitted, limited to 20mph, and class 3, no throttle, limited to 28mph. All 3 have a 750w motor limit. If your motor is over 750w, or your speed is not limited to 28mph (w/out throttle) or 20mph (w/ throttle), you do not legally have an electric assist bike under the law, and would generally be under the part of the code that governs low speed vehicles like mopeds.

Its apparently surprising to a lot of people, but the law isn't what you think it should be in your head.

I was not offended at all. I understand the laws regarding ebikes. The 750W motor limit is an unbelievably subjective number. There is no federal or states standard of how this is set. This leaves the bike makers to set the rating as they see fit based on the way they want to market the bike. My bike says "Class 3 Pedelec" on it and has a 650W motor rating from the manufacturer. Yet I can still go 35 if I want, that doesn't make it a moped. Its a bit like saying if you drive your minivan over 80mph then you are suddenly in a sports car.

 

[AHicks]

Interesting video comparison... keep an open mind through the video to the end.

For starters, comparing the most inexpensive 250w hub drive available to a much more expensive mid drive in a hill climb, really? Where's the relevance? It MIGHT be "interesting" to European riders maybe, but I think they might even blow it off as irrelevant. To make it "interesting", show me a comparison using a 1000+ watt hub drive in a hill climb......

And also from a relevance stand point, how often do you believe the average "mountain bike" sold in the US (let's say 90% of them sold in the US?) will be ridden in conditions like those in the video?

Pretty one sided comparison if you ask me. Likely meant to mislead the uninitiated.....

 

[FlatSix911]

For starters, comparing the most inexpensive 250w hub drive available to a much more expensive mid drive in a hill climb, really? Where's the relevance? It MIGHT be "interesting" to European riders maybe, but I think they might even blow it off as irrelevant. To make it "interesting", show me a comparison using a 1000+ watt hub drive in a hill climb......

And also from a relevance stand point, how often do you believe the average "mountain bike" sold in the US (let's say 90% of them sold in the US?) will be ridden in conditions like those in the video? Pretty one sided comparison if you ask me. Likely meant to mislead the uninitiated.....

I've been riding for 30 years and have yet to meet anyone with a hub-drive mountain bike on the trail.

Mid-drives dominate the off-road market for a reason... they have low-end geared torque and balance.

Hub drives are great for commuters and the bike path... low maintenance and durable if not abused when climbing.

 

[AHicks]

I've been riding for 30 years and have yet to meet anyone with a hub-drive mountain bike on the trail.

Mid-drives dominate the off-road market for a reason... they have low-end geared torque and balance.

Hub drives are great for commuters and the bike path... low maintenance and durable if not abused when climbing.

Well, I almost agreed with one of your points, the one that starts off "mid drives dominate the off road market for a reason". But then you continue on with a very wrong reason why that might be the case, that it's because they have low end torque and balance. This might lead one to believe those attributes are impossible to achieve with a geared hub, which is far from the truth. If you had said something like mid drives have an incredible advantage when it comes to available gear ratios, I'd have been fine. Further, a lot of testing between similarly powered geared hubs vs a mid drive, of a shorter duration, may show tthat the gear drive has an advantage - kinda like the one an automatic transmission has over a stick shift.....

"Hub drives are great for commuters and the bike path... low maintenance and durable if not abused when climbing."

This statement is another that's mostly correct, but you blow that one too, going on hinting it's not possible to abuse or damage a mid drive in a climb - and if anyone should know better, that it's entirely possible to overheat a mid drive in an extended climb, it should be somebody bragging that they've been riding for 30 years. In fact, both the geared hubs, AND mid drives, have the worst cooling capacity between the 3 types of drives available! To avoid overheating either a geared hub or mid drive on an extended climb, you need to know what you are doing.

Last, the point about never seeing a hub drive on a trail, I'm thinking you need to expand on what you call a "trail". I'm guessing the kind of trail you're talking about will not be seen in most parts of the country. Many people, when they see the word "trail" will think of what is quickly becoming more popularly known as a multi use trail. NOT the highly technical stuff you're talking about....

 

[Mr. Coffee]

To avoid overheating either a geared hub or mid drive on an extended climb, you need to know what you are doing.

Can you please be specific about what exactly you mean here. My own experience has not matched your statements at all.

I have made multiple long ascents using a mid-drive e-bike. Usually a "long" ascent to me is 4000-5000 vertical feet. That is typically also done on hot, steep, and dusty roads. I periodically check the temperature of both the motor and the batteries by placing my hand on them. While they certainly have gotten warm, neither the batteries nor the motor were ever hot to the touch.

Since my technique generally involves putting the bike in low gear, putting the assist on "ROAR", and pedaling hard I don't think I "know what I am doing."

Still going strong two years and 7000 miles in.

 

[AHicks]

Bike in low gear, letting the motor rev, is not going to draw the amps vs. the same conditions in a higher gear where the motor is really grunting/pulling a lot of amperage - and building heat faster than it can get rid of it.

Somebody with experience will have learned that.....

If you don't know that, and try climbing in too high a gear, you'll be learning a lesson shortly. It is VERY possible to overheat a mid drive, just like you can a geared hub.

To be clear, I am NOT discounting the mid drive's ability to climb. I'd just like to see the reason why they can climb stated correctly. It's about the gearing. Not black magic, rocket science, or some superior forces.

Also, no intent to be divisive. Just wanting to keep the playing field level. I absolutely hate it when somebody tries to establish an us vs. them/I'm right, you're wrong/one (my) way is "better" take on this kind of thing. We ride for different purposes, with different priorities, in different conditions, and different terrain. There are young strong riders, and some not so much of either. There is no clear "best" available, that's going to turn in superior performance with the highest possible level of efficiency under all conditions. PERIOD.