Considering a Specialized, got a few questions

[OrTrek]

I don't CARE about efficiency. I have an overpowered motor that will drive me faster and farther than I need to go. Efficiency is a non-issue. Comfort, though, is HUGE. I'm not likely to ride many miles if I'm in pain the whole time, and aching (like I am now) for a day or two after a ride.

Some of that comfort issue comes from the seat, and yes, a more-upright position would make it worse. But some of it comes from the forward position, and the strain that puts on my shoulders/elbows/wrists.

It's weird. Today I rode only 15 miles, and I was fairly uncomfortable, and I'm aching now. But when I test-rode the Large Vado 15 miles, I don't remember any discomfort during or after. That's why I bought it.

@Ebikelife72, thanks! I'll look into that. And "educate" the LBS mechanic if he's wrong. That'll be a huge help if it can reduce the pounding on my butt bones.

Gary you might think I'm nuts, but I actually think your seat is too low (basis your new toy picture) and may be putting undo pressure on the wrong muscles/joints when pedaling. I find for me that the top of seat and handlebars are basically in parallel and that the seat is positioned roughly at the top of your hip bone. When I get on and let's say standing on the left pedal in the downward position when I slid back onto the seat, it just so very slightly touches the bottom of my butt as I slid onto it.
I also have the seat adjusted so that at the half way point of the downward pedal stroke (like 9:00 left or 3:00 right) my knee is over the middle of my foot or at least behind the front of the toes. Much like a squat - not knee over toes. If the reach of the bike is correct you should be able to have some elbow flex on the handlebars without undo pressure on the hands.
Oh and nice bike!!

 

[Bavi]

@Stefan Mikes, wise words and a lovely atmospheric photo there, it made me feel the joy just looking at it!
I know you ride much greater distances than that, but I’ve never ridden even 59 miles in a single session in my entire life! 39 is my max but I do try to ride every single day, anything from doing the shopping = 5 miles (I have to go the long way round!) to a little bit of wellbeing and exertion = more like 28 miles. Not at all impressive by anyone’s standards but extremely enjoyable and beneficial to me nonetheless

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Gary you might think I'm nuts, but I actually think your seat is too low (basis your new toy picture) and may be putting undo pressure on the wrong muscles/joints when pedaling. I find for me that the top of seat and handlebars are basically in parallel and that the seat is positioned roughly at the top of your hip bone. When I get on and let's say standing on the left pedal in the downward position when I slid back onto the seat, it just so very slightly touches the bottom of my butt as I slid onto it.
I also have the seat adjusted so that at the half way point of the downward pedal stroke (like 9:00 left or 3:00 right) my knee is over the middle of my foot or at least behind the front of the toes. Much like a squat - not knee over toes. If the reach of the bike is correct you should be able to have some elbow flex on the handlebars without undo pressure on the hands.
Oh and nice bike!!

@OrTrek, you might have just found the discomfort problem of Gary. I guess he demo rode the Vado with the saddle dramatically higher than shown in his latest photo. A good thing to consider.

know you ride much greater distances than that, but I’ve never ridden even 59 miles in a single session in my entire life! 39 is my max but I do try to ride every single day, anything from doing the shopping = 5 miles (I have to go the long way round!) to a little bit of wellbeing and exertion = more like 28 miles. Not at all impressive by anyone’s standards but extremely enjoyable and beneficial to me nonetheless

I just wanted to say I had to optimize my e-bikes to be able to ride long without many assorted aches. Besides, one hour of pedalling makes my body burn roughly 250 kcal disregarding the assistance or speed. Only when I'm slacking (for example, riding with a massive tailwind) the calories figure drops down to some 215 kcal/h.

 

[GaryInCO]

@Stefan Mikes that's a spectacular photo !! What a great way to remember your joy in riding. If it was me I'd blow up a good-size print of that for my wall.

Gary you might think I'm nuts, but I actually think your seat is too low (basis your new toy picture) and may be putting undo pressure on the wrong muscles/joints when pedaling. I find for me that the top of seat and handlebars are basically in parallel and that the seat is positioned roughly at the top of your hip bone.

I locate the saddle based on my legs reaching the pedals properly (straight leg, heel on pedal at bottom of stroke), and adjust the handlebar height for comfortable posture. But I can't adjust the bar height on the Vado.

The center of my handlebars (at the stem) is at about 43" = 109cm, and the tops of the grips are at about 45.5" = 115.5cm. The seat is about 40.5" = 103cm, so I guess I already have the grips well above the seat. But the top of my hip is at 46" = 117cm !! Holy smokes that would be high if I put the seat at 46". I would need a ladder to climb up onto the saddle!! Currently I can just barely stand on my tippy-toes on one side when waiting at a light or crosswalk, but my calf tends to cramp. If I raised it another 5+ inches, I would have to hop off the saddle at a stop. (Thank God for the low step-through top tube!)

When I get on and let's say standing on the left pedal in the downward position when I slid back onto the seat, it just so very slightly touches the bottom of my butt as I slid onto it.

Is that standing on your heel on the pedal? That's how I place my saddle height, heel on the pedal and seat almost grazing my nethers.

I assume you're speaking figuratively when you say your butt grazes the seat? I'm not targeting my butt. My glutes go on either side of the saddle. Sorry for TMI, but my perineum is primarily what contacts the saddle and takes the brunt of the contact. That's what grazes the seat.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Currently I can just barely stand on my tippy-toes on one side when waiting at a light or crosswalk, but my calf tends to cramp.

Gary, well... If you wanted to stand on your toes while still being seated, that would be a Como, a cruiser e-bike. Vado requires you to jump off the saddle on stops, and jump onto the saddle on the ride restart.

If I raised it another 5+ inches, I would have to hop off the saddle at a stop. (Thank God for the low step-through top tube!)

You have to hop off the saddle. But I did not say 5 inches saddle rise, no! It is often 1 cm or half-inch that makes the difference!

Please make this experiment: Stand next to your Vado on the left hand side. Lean the way your right armpit is fully supported on the saddle, and extend your arm and hand towards the bottom bracket. If your fingers extend past the crankset spindle, your saddle is too low for approximately the same amount. (A good start point is when the tips of your fingers just reach the centre of the spindle).
------------------
One of my good riding friends (a road cyclist) had a feeling she was underperforming. Once she met a good man on a group ride. The guy measured her "standover height" and applied a formula. Then, he rose her saddle an amount (using a tape measure!) Since then the friend has become a devil incarnate, outperforming most of us!

Which cannot be said of another cycling friend. Her Dad bought her a nice MTB (without the dropper post though). The girls is so scared to hop off the saddle on stops that she rides her bike looking like a duck (with her knees getting high as she's pedalling). Her rides are ridiculously slow, and she gets tired after very few kilometres. Nobody wants to ride together with her anymore!

 

[GaryInCO]

Gary, well... If you wanted to stand on your toes while still being seated, that would be a Como, a cruiser e-bike. Vado requires you to jump off the saddle on stops, and jump onto the saddle on the ride restart.

Really!? I honestly did not know that. And I don't understand it. Are you saying the Vado geometry expects you to set your saddle height where you can't reach the ground? I think I have my saddle set right for "straight leg to heel on pedal" measurement. Also the Retül sizing tool says I should have my saddle at 101.1cm, and I have it at about 103cm. So even though I can touch the ground, if anything I think I have the saddle a bit too high!

You're not talking about standover height, are you? Comos (almost) all have low step-through standover height, but that's not what affects the jumping-off issue. My standover height is about 35" = 89cm. Specialized says the XL Vado has a standover of 626mm, even though the step-through top tube goes down to about 23" = 58cm.

You have to hop off the saddle. But I did not say 5 inches saddle rise, no! It is often 1 cm or half-inch that makes the difference!

The 5 inches came from @OrTrek's "top of hip bone" comment. Maybe I misunderstood him.

Please make this experiment: Stand next to your Vado on the left hand side. Lean the way your right armpit is fully supported on the saddle, and extend your arm and hand towards the bottom bracket. If your fingers extend past the crankset spindle, your saddle is too low for approximately the same amount. (A good start point is when the tips of your fingers just reach the centre of the spindle).

I reach just about precisely to the center of the spindle. It's not an exact measurement because the armpit/saddle connection can move around, but I think that indicates I'm in the right ballpark, even though I can touch the ground. (That measure seems a bit odd since it assumes your arm/leg length ratio is exactly the same as someone else ...)

OK, it's 60F = 15.5C out there. Time to go grab some miles before the cold front moves in, in about 2-3 hours. Might not see any temps over 49F = 9.5C for a few weeks ...

 

[Bavi]

Are you saying the Vado geometry expects you to set your saddle height where you can't reach the ground?

Yep... I'm with Stefan on that one too... even with my Como (which he lovingly refers to as a "cruiser e-bike" ) I need to have the seat set so that I have to hop off it when I come to a stop. I've always set up my bikes this way because otherwise I'm riding with my legs far too bent; that absolutely kills my knees and I can't exert anything like as much force on the pedals.

There's a lot to be said with just playing with the setup.... higher/lower, forward/back angle of tilt etc. after all, it's free! but just because something works for me or Stefan doesn't necessarily mean it'll be good for you though

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Are you saying the Vado geometry expects you to set your saddle height where you can't reach the ground?

Precisely. All bikes except the cruisers work the same way. That's one of the reasons dropper seat posts are so popular on the SUV e-bikes as the rider can simply drop the seat for stopping, and then raise their body on the pedals and "shoot" the saddle back to the proper height. Otherwise you need to hop off/hop on.

I was talking about your own "standover height", which is similar to the inseam length but measured in shoes from the floor to your crotch with the feet slightly apart. My own SH is 78 cm, and the ideal saddle height (for my legs) is 72 cm (in the straight line from the crankset spindle to the top of the saddle in its centre). I have memorized the latter and use it on any bike including demo bikes. Only... When I was testing a Diverge Evo, the LBS technician was, er, careless when setting the saddle height. He actually set the saddle at 73 cm, a centimeter too high. The demo ride turned out an utter distaster... I only rode for 30 km and was devastated. Just one centimetre too high!

 

[GaryInCO]

Ugh. Even 60F isn't all that toasty when you're riding 20mph into a 15mph headwind ... But I'm tickled I CAN ride 20mph into a headwind !!

I am genuinely confused, guys. My saddle height is set according to a pretty standard method, and Retül says it should be LOWER. But I just checked, and when stopped at a light I can just lean the bike to one side a bit and actually have my foot fully FLAT on the ground, with the other maybe 6" in the air. Or I can put my toes down without lifting the other foot too much. ???? I much prefer putting a foot down to hopping off the saddle -- it's easy to hit the pedal with the in-the-air foot and zoom away.

I need to find somebody who does proper fitting.

Good news though: I went about as far today as I did yesterday, before the cold wind chased me indoors. And I felt much less discomfort (except the bony bits on the saddle) and less fatigue at the end of the ride. So I'm snapping right back into decent shape! Too bad I won't be able to ride for a while... highs around 44F = 7C for at least the next 10 days.

 

[OrTrek]

@GaryInCO the "top of the hip bone" is probably the extreme point but is a good starting point and your explanation of where your seat fits your anatomy is better and coincides with me. My seat is close to top of my hip bone on 3 of my bikes and all fit @Stefan Mikes spindle description (thanks for that Stefan). It took me awhile to dial them in. In regards to my single speed "ON the beach cruiser" I'm pretty sure I never will - too foot forward. It's a real workout riding it in sand even though my single speed trail bike with higher gearing and the same width tires handles it fine.

I like what @Bavi says:
"There's a lot to be said with just playing with the setup.... higher/lower, forward/back angle of tilt etc. after all, it's free! but just because something works for me or Stefan doesn't necessarily mean it'll be good for you though ".

I feel confident you'll figure it out. And yes using a good fitter probably is wise - as opposed to listening to us knuckleheads .

 

[mschwett]

Really!? I honestly did not know that. And I don't understand it. Are you saying the Vado geometry expects you to set your saddle height where you can't reach the ground? I think I have my saddle set right for "straight leg to heel on pedal" measurement. Also the Retül sizing tool says I should have my saddle at 101.1cm, and I have it at about 103cm. So even though I can touch the ground, if anything I think I have the saddle a bit too high!

You're not talking about standover height, are you? Comos (almost) all have low step-through standover height, but that's not what affects the jumping-off issue. My standover height is about 35" = 89cm. Specialized says the XL Vado has a standover of 626mm, even though the step-through top tube goes down to about 23" = 58cm.


The 5 inches came from @OrTrek's "top of hip bone" comment. Maybe I misunderstood him.


I reach just about precisely to the center of the spindle. It's not an exact measurement because the armpit/saddle connection can move around, but I think that indicates I'm in the right ballpark, even though I can touch the ground. (That measure seems a bit odd since it assumes your arm/leg length ratio is exactly the same as someone else ...)

OK, it's 60F = 15.5C out there. Time to go grab some miles before the cold front moves in, in about 2-3 hours. Might not see any temps over 49F = 9.5C for a few weeks ...

gary, i’ll add to what others have said - given that you want the leg to be almost completely straight at the bottom of the pedal cycle, by definition (the pedals are well above the ground ) you really can’t stand with your butt on the seat unless the bike is leaned over and you have you foot pointed all the way down. you will want to practice sliding forward off the seat and putting one or both legs down when you stop. it’ll become completely second nature after a short while, and your low top tube will eliminate any risk of, well, risk.

really small changes to the geometry of a bike can have a big impact on comfort. you may also have jumped into a little too big of a ride to start - i know 15 miles isn’t a lot, but if your position is wrong, it’s too much. this is really a major risk of eBikes since on a regular bike, your legs and heart/lungs would be screaming at the first hill, and you’d take it really easy.

i am not sure if your comment about the heel and the pedals implies you’re pedaling that way, but the ball of your foot - not the heel or middle/arch - should be centered on the pedal. this gives you much more range of extension, since the ball is so much further from your ankle.

on one hand, you’ll need to make minor adjustments to the bike. on the other, your body will get used to cycling, you’ll get stronger and more flexible and (in a few spots ) tougher. the latter must happen slowly, so be patient and take some time!

the first time i got on a road bike - a specialized creo - i thought it was an incredibly awkward machine. hard to control, nerve wracking to start or stop, etc. a year later i rode one 120 miles in a day, no suspension seat post, no pain, no chafing, hardly even aware of the bicycle, just the ride.

 

[Bavi]

... when you're riding 20mph into a 15mph headwind ... But I'm tickled I CAN ride 20mph into a headwind !!

Sounds like you're doing bloody well to me!!!

when stopped at a light I can just lean the bike to one side a bit and actually have my foot fully FLAT on the ground, with the other maybe 6" in the air.

That's WAY lower than I've ever have mine... BUT... you need to do what's right for you. I'm not sure that anyone really needs a bike fit for this kind of cycling. Actually I'd say I find it interesting and quite good fun experimenting with the setup for myself. I make an adjustment... ride 2-3 miles to the shops if I don't like it I change it again before I ride back, I haven't done anything so excruciating that I couldn't get that far. Plus you've just put a few more miles on your clock!

A couple of points:
1. I only change one thing at a time.
2. I note exactly how things are currently before making a change, so I can revert it to a known setup immediately if I don't like it.
3. After I've made a change, I think about what I'm feeling as I ride... I don't wait till I get home and try to remember it. It's a bit like at the opticians when they say "is it better with it or without it!"
4. Try to avoid making really big changes all in one go.... got at it incrementally

 

[mschwett]

A couple of points:
1. I only change one thing at a time.
2. I note exactly how things are currently before making a change, so I can revert it to a known setup immediately if I don't like it.
3. After I've made a change, I think about what I'm feeling as I ride... I don't wait till I get home and try to remember it. It's a bit like at the opticians when they say "is it better with it or without it!"
4. Try to avoid making really big changes all in one go.... got at it incrementally

wisdom!!

 

[Jim in Central CA]

My LBS is a Specialized store, but it's a small shop. Just converted to Specialized this summer. I haven't been terribly impressed with their bike-fitting skillz. The only sizing comment I got before I bought my bike was "Yeah I saw you ride away on that Large Vado and I said, oooh that guy needs an XL ..." And that was after I'd said I wanted an XL.

One guy today did have some concrete suggestions -- maybe rotate the handlebars backwards, towards the rider, as that would bring them nearer. But they would also move down so I'm not sure that's gonna help. He also suggested moving the seat forward, which I agreed with & had planned to do.

I took the Red Beast out for a quick shakedown cruise, just 15 leisurely miles putting along, getting a feel for things. Some observations:
* I couldn't get the battery out last night. Today the LBS guy said they're often tight when they're new, and he recommended I pry out the bottom with a flat-head screwdriver. Sure enough, it popped right out. But then I tried to remove it again after my ride today, and no luck. It comes out maybe 3-4mm and no more. I think I've gouged a scratch in the bottom end of the battery case trying to pry it out. Any suggestions?
* Like I suspected, this thing has way more power than I need. I did the whole ride in ECO mode. Granted, it was a short flat ride, but I still felt a bit smug -- until the app rudely pointed out I'd only been putting out 47 W, or 63 W "adjusted" rider power. Well I said it was a laid-back ride ... But I even took the steep-ish hill up to my house in 3rd-4th gear ECO.
* The forward position doesn't feel too comfortable. Maybe moving the seat will help, or maybe I'll just get used to it.
* Supposedly the seat post is suspended, but it has about as much give as my driveway. I.e. not much. If I jump on it with my entire weight I can barely budge it. LBS guy says it's not adjustable. I'm not sure why they bothered, because that's not going to soften the ride at all. Unless my butt gets used to the abuse, I'll be looking for a suspended seat next spring.
* I haven't had a bike with fenders since junior high! Or elementary school ?? It was kinda fun to splash through puddles and not get soaked. They're a bit noisy though, picking up leaves and sticks and rubbing them on the tire. I also rode through some snow, which was a little squirrelly -- those are not snow tires!! -- but it worked.
* I need a small USB-C cable! I see there's a jack on the display. I'm glad somebody was thinking! Any favorite phone holders?

In reply to your question about favorite phone holders - I am a huge fan of Visnfa and I recommend them completely. They are available on Amazon for $13.99. I bought one shortly after buying my Vado in 2021 and it has been great. They are easy to install, easy to adjust and easy to use. I don't do any off-road riding, but I have no doubt it could handle it without any problem. I was so impressed with them that I bought several more to install on my other bike and to give as gifts, including to a friend who does lots of off-road riding and he loves it, just like I do.

 

[GuruUno]

6 pages of conversation about who to choose and why. Each has their own experience. Mine has been documented in these forums. MY opinion is choose your LBS vendor carefully. It's all about their competency. No different than any craftsman in any type of business, Regarding which brand? ME, I prefer Specialized. Although Trek was good, I was not thrilled with the LBS service, and jumped ship to Specialized. In MY opinion, it was the best choice I made. Stellar bikes. Stellar equipment. Super service from my LBS. However, the "mother ship" (Specialized headquarters) leaves much to be desired. MAYBE I painted myself into a corner with my razor sharp tongue and their inept support representative, but they really suck for my 2 cents. Find a good LBS, and be nice. I learned how to, you can too.

 

[GaryInCO]

I'm still alive guys, just haven't been riding much. I don't enjoy riding when it's in the 40s. Or worse.

i am not sure if your comment about the heel and the pedals implies you’re pedaling that way, but the ball of your foot - not the heel or middle/arch - should be centered on the pedal. this gives you much more range of extension, since the ball is so much further from your ankle.

Yes, the "heel on pedal" is only for setting saddle height. That's the way I've always read you should set it: lean up against a wall or similar, straight-leg with your heel on the pedal. If I set it any higher than that, I start "rocking" my hips because I'm stretching to reach the bottom of the stroke.

Highs in the 20s-30s F and lows in the teens or single digits. Another week with no rides.

 

[mschwett]

I'm still alive guys, just haven't been riding much. I don't enjoy riding when it's in the 40s. Or worse.


Yes, the "heel on pedal" is only for setting saddle height. That's the way I've always read you should set it: lean up against a wall or similar, straight-leg with your heel on the pedal. If I set it any higher than that, I start "rocking" my hips because I'm stretching to reach the bottom of the stroke.

Highs in the 20s-30s F and lows in the teens or single digits. Another week with no rides.

ah, i see.

i’ve always used the hamley method to get it close prior to a professional fitting - 1.09x your inseam measured without shoes from the surface of the pedal to the top middle of the saddle. measure inseam with a book against a well pressed up between your legs with a firm but not uncomfortable pressure

 

[Stefan Mikes]

ah, i see.

i’ve always used the hamley method to get it close prior to a professional fitting - 1.09x your inseam measured without shoes from the surface of the pedal to the top middle of the saddle. measure inseam with a book against a well pressed up between your legs with a firm but not uncomfortable pressure

It cannot be right.
My ideal and proven distance from the axis/surface of the pedal is 88 cm. Divided by 1.09 it gives the "inseam" of 80.7 cm. However, my inseam as measured the way you described is only 77 cm (it is 78 cm in the cycling shoes). As you know, even half a centimetre off in the saddle height is too much.

Besides, the practical way to measure the saddle height is the straight line distance from the bottom bracket axis to the centre/surface of the saddle. My ideal value is 72 cm. The Retul calculator (based on the shin height) is very close to that value!

 

[mschwett]

It cannot be right.
My ideal and proven distance from the axis/surface of the pedal is 88 cm. Divided by 1.09 it gives the "inseam" of 80.7 cm. However, my inseam as measured the way you described is only 77 cm (it is 78 cm in the cycling shoes). As you know, even half a centimetre off in the saddle height is too much.

Besides, the practical way to measure the saddle height is the straight line distance from the bottom bracket axis to the centre/surface of the saddle. My ideal value is 72 cm. The Retul calculator (based on the shin height) is very close to that value!

none of the “estimation” methods are all that good, but many consider the 1.09 method a good starting point because it takes into account the length of the cranks, which a bottom bracket based measure does not. everyone is different and there’s a decent amount of variation in what’s “ideal!”

the 109% is called the hanley method. it is widely used, as is 88% of inseam to the bottom bracket, which is called the lemond method. there’s lots of other methods too, with the holmes method, which takes knee angle into account, generally considered the very best afaik. but it’s hard to do yourself.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the 109% is called the hanley method. it is widely used, as is 88% of inseam to the bottom bracket, which is called the lemond method. there’s lots of other methods too, with the holmes method, which takes knee angle into account, generally considered the very best afaik. but it’s hard to do yourself.

The Hanley method gives the saddle too high, and the LeMond method makes it too low for me. I usually try the "armpit method" as described in post #105, and it has been good for most of my friends so far.

I think only trial-and-error is really a good approach