??? Class 2 Regulations on Throttle Usage ????

[Ken M]

I'm 99% sure the information I got from one source is wrong but wanted to verify....

Can the owner of a Class 2 ebike (regulation compliant ebike with a throttle that cuts off at 20mph) continue to ride the bike legally if the chain or derailleur breaks such that pedaling is no longer possible?

The person I was talking to says if the pedals become non-functional for any reason a class 2 ebike can no longer be ridden under throttle alone. I listened to many of Court's reviews that he has mention the ability to continue riding a class 2 ebike using the throttle if you experience a chain break or other mechanical failure that prevents using the pedals. I'm looking for feedback so I can send him the link to this forum discussion.

 

[ebikemom]

YES. Just had a chat with my local Pedego dealer (Hi Mike, if you're here!) and he said that Pedego lobbied for throttles to be included in US ebike laws to benefit those who need them. Pedego sells a "classic cruiser" that ONLY has a throttle, and it is considered a Class 2 ebike, I believe. This might also be a good question to ask directly to Pedego, since Pedego bikes have throttles (which, can easily be removed if the buyer doesn't want a throttle, BTW--we had one removed on one of our bikes for a time, but found it necessary due to our terrain-related needs).

 

[Ken M]

YES. Just had a chat with my local Pedego dealer (Hi Mike, if you're here!) and he said that Pedego lobbied for throttles to be included in US ebike laws to benefit those who need them. Pedego sells a "classic cruiser" that ONLY has a throttle, and it is considered a Class 2 ebike, I believe. This might also be a good question to ask directly to Pedego, since Pedego bikes have throttles (which, can easily be removed if the buyer doesn't want a throttle, BTW--we had one removed on one of our bikes for a time, but found it necessary due to our terrain-related needs).

Hi, I believe that ebike does have functional pedals so you may not have understood my question. If for some reason while riding the pedals became non-functional, is it legal to continue to ride using only the throttle. I believe it is but I want robust confirmation (ie my opinion may be wrong).

 

[chriskmee]

I don't see why it would be illegal, a class 2 ebike does not require you to pedal, so working pedals or not shouldn't matter at all.

Now if you intentionally removed the ability to pedal I can see that being considered a moped or something. If the ability to pedal breaks, I think at that point it's a damaged ebike, which is legal.

I think this is more in the fix it ticket realm, like a car with a broken taillight. It's still completely legal to drive around with a broken taillight, but you should fix it as soon as you can. I think that is how the law would look at a class 2 ebike with broken pedals, it's legal, but fix it.

 

[ymarty]

In oregon, the rule says "Has fully operative pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor with power output not more than 1,000 watts. " I do not think that if an issue arises where you have to rely on the throttle (which happened to me last week), you would get a ticket. Besides, if the chain broke, someone would have to look closely to see no chain and most likely, you would be carrying the broken chain. https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Forms/DMV/6619.pdf

 

[6zfshdb]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to get my head around these ever changing e-bike laws. New York City for example, which until recently banned any bike with a throttle, has now modified that regulation. An interesting read:

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/04/new-york-city-makes-space-for-e-bikes/557396/

 

[Ken M]

Something that should also be considered in this discussion it the Footloose class 2 eBike - it has pedals but they only rotate a generator that can recharge the battery while you ride. This product is being sold LEGALLY in the US so that seems to be legal precedence that pedals do not have to directly provide motion forces to the ebike.

I interpret the LETTER of the regulations to be that so long as the speed is regulated / maintained to less than 20mph and the RATED (the funny thing is that there is no such thing as a standard way to rate motor power by itself as the regulations do not even attempt to outline) power limit is in compliance the ?eBike? is legally classified as a bike.

The sad part of the poorly conceived regulations on ebikes (even the Class 3 system that People for Bikes advocates) are a total joke. They are technically flawed because I highly doubt any engineers were consulted when they wrote them. We need more people to start getting out of cars for reasonable distance commuting and eBikes are probably the best chance to make that happen, and the regulations seem to have been written by morons such that a great product that can help both the environment and our health is being held back.

Allow the assist limit to go higher (say into the 35-40mph / 55kph) and allow the DRIVE SYSTEM to utilize upwards of 60V and 40A so the ebike performance will confidently be adequate regardless of motor configuration utilized (the current 750W limit favors mid drives that utilize gearing to achieve higher torque but gearless hub drives may be the best long term solution for commuting so they should not be impacted by poorly conceived legislation).

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I'm 99% sure the information I got from one source is wrong but wanted to verify....

Can the owner of a Class 2 ebike (regulation compliant ebike with a throttle that cuts off at 20mph) continue to ride the bike legally if the chain or derailleur breaks such that pedaling is no longer possible?

The person I was talking to says if the pedals become non-functional for any reason a class 2 ebike can no longer be ridden under throttle alone. I listened to many of Court's reviews that he has mention the ability to continue riding a class 2 ebike using the throttle if you experience a chain break or other mechanical failure that prevents using the pedals. I'm looking for feedback so I can send him the link to this forum discussion.

I had older models that have different throttle speed cut off with and without pedaling.
Throttle without pedaling, speed limit = 6 mph
Throttle with pedaling, speed limit = 20 mph
With the hub drive, even if I lost the chain, I can still operate the throttle to 20 mph by just simply ghost pedaling it at the same time.

The current one I have can solely throttle (w/o pedaling) up to 20 mph. However, I changed the setting so it can still throttle above 20 mph.

 

[Ken M]

I had older models that have different throttle speed cut off with and without pedaling.
Throttle without pedaling, speed limit = 6 mph
Throttle with pedaling, speed limit = 20 mph
With the hub drive, even if I lost the chain, I can still operate the throttle to 20 mph by just simply ghost pedaling it.

The current one I have can solely throttle (w/o pedaling) up to 20 mph. However, I changed the setting so it can still throttle above 20 mph.

I think the 6mph mode you mentioned is just a walk mode that some ebikes have (not really intended to be a ride mode).

If the bike does 20mph with pedaling it's a Class 1 pedelec so I think you need to read the regulations to understand the basis for my question. I want to know if an "ebike" with a throttle that cuts off at 20mph actually requires pedals. I don't believe there is adequate information in the regulations to provide a clear answer.

 

[ebikemom]

ebikes do require pedals, as their definition is built upon the definition of bicycles. A bicycle, by definition, is operated with pedals.

Here is Washington State's ebike law for reference:
FINAL BILL REPORT ESSB 6434

 

[Ken M]

Just a quick following on this tread. I'm asking if it's illegal to continue to ride an eBike that has a throttle if the chain breaks or something else renders the human powered mechanical drive system non-functional.

I'm NOT asking if some bikes have a walk mode, if some bikes assist to higher speeds than 20mph using the throttle (of coarse some owners unlock the assist speed limits .... I have), etc.

I want to know if there is a legit regulation would result in a ticket for continue to ride under throttle power alone under 20mph. I think everyone is reading between the lines as to what I'm asking but the question is very simple.

 

[Ken M]

ebikes do require pedals, as their definition is built upon the definition of bicycles. A bicycle, by definition, is operated with pedals.

Here is Washington State's ebike law for reference:
FINAL BILL REPORT ESSB 6434

I believe the Footloose is sold in Washington state as a legal Class 2 pedelec and it does not have "fully operable pedals" by traditional interpretation. There are many folding EVs that do not have functional pedals that are sold there legally as well. There are even children's bikes sold there (I believe they call them striders) that do not have any rotating or stationary pedals (designed to teach kids balance on a bike).

How do the smart people of Washington state reconcile these ambiguities?

I think what this thread is proving is that everyone has an opinion but the regulations are so open-ended that enforcement is left to butt-pull opinions that simply will not have legal standing in courts.

 

[Ken M]

ebikes do require pedals, as their definition is built upon the definition of bicycles. A bicycle, by definition, is operated with pedals.

Here is Washington State's ebike law for reference:
FINAL BILL REPORT ESSB 6434

I also want to add that EBR and other ebike review sites mention the the benefit of a bike with a throttle and a rear hub motor as being able to continue to ride it if the chain breaks. Based on your statement you are claiming they are giving poor illegal advise and I think that is not accurate. I think it is still a legal class 2 ebike even with the chain broken because of all the ambiguities of the regulations.

The bottom line is that we don't need regulations to ruin the potential of ebikes to keep the insurance companies happy and to put more money into DMV pension funds by requiring expensive registrations. The regulations should encourage people get out of their cars and onto ebikes even if the classical definition of a bike needs to be expanded...not constricted to make the oil and gas industry happy.

 

[Ken M]

I think the 6mph mode you mentioned is just a walk mode that some ebikes have (not really intended to be a ride mode).

If the bike does 20mph with pedaling it's a Class 1 pedelec so I think you need to read the regulations to understand the basis for my question. I want to know if an "ebike" with a throttle that cuts off at 20mph actually requires pedals. I don't believe there is adequate information in the regulations to provide a clear answer.

Also note the regulation states " Electric-assisted bicycles are defined as bicycles that can be operated with pedals,..." That certainly seems to leave the door open to not having traditionally functional pedals such that all those pedal-less bikes I mentioned are permitted to be sold and used in Washington state and other states.

 

[Timpo]

Just found an interesting article.

This man had a broken pedal, got $11,000 fine because the bike was no longer defined as "power-assisted bicycle"

He did go to court and win, but still, it sucks that he had to go through all these.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...cer-gave-him-11000-in-fines-over-broken-pedal

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I think the 6mph mode you mentioned is just a walk mode that some ebikes have (not really intended to be a ride mode).

If the bike does 20mph with pedaling it's a Class 1 pedelec so I think you need to read the regulations to understand the basis for my question. OK?

I said "Throttle with pedaling, speed limit = 20 mph". You are the one who's not reading my response and then insulting me already.

I want to know if an "ebike" with a throttle that cuts off at 20mph actually requires pedals. I don't believe there is adequate information in the regulations to provide a clear answer.

The answer to your question is NO, it does not require you to pedal but it has to be a bicycle (which means it has pedals, working or broken, doesn't matter).

You are looking at a class 2 that don't require pedelec mode (PAS) but it's optional. The manufacturer that sell that setup is Prodecotech and other cheap Chinese no-brand ebikes used by food delivery such as those being cracked down in NYC.

This is how the bicycle manufacturers interpret the classification basing on the products that they sell.

Class 1 : under 750W, limited to 20 mph by PAS
Class 2 : under 750W, limited to 20 mph by throttle (+/-PAS, limited to 20 mph )
Class 3 : under 750W, limitted to 28 mph by PAS (+/- throttle, limitted to 20 mph)

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf

Please be careful with your words.

 

[Ken M]

Not sure if that establishes any legal precedent here since that was a story from Canada.

I think the SIGNIFICANT legal precedence in the US is that fact that the Footloose is being imported and sold as a legal class 2 ebike without functional pedals. I know there are those that will argue that pedals that charge the battery are still "functional" but that is just someone trying to support an opinion as I'm doing as well.

I just want this thread to show how the current regulations are poorly written and conceived and the focus on top assist speeds are non-sense since most good riders on a traditional road bike can easily hit speeds over 30mph on flats and over 40mph downhill.

 

[ebikemom]

@Ken M , I am not posing arguments. I am sharing information based on the laws here in Washington. I did not make any claims about what is sold or ridden in Washington state. The way laws generally work is that if they become out of step with practice that is working well in a community, the community changes the laws.

 

[Ken M]

The answer to your question is NO. You are looking at a class 2 that don't require pedelec mode (PAS) but it's optional. The manufacturer that sell that setup is Prodecotech and other cheap Chinese no-brand ebikes used by food delivery such as those being cracked down in NYC.

This is how the bicycle manufacturers interpret the classification basing on the products that they sell.

Class 1 : under 750W, limited to 20 mph by PAS
Class 2 : under 750W, limited to 20 mph by throttle (+/-PAS, limited to 20 mph )
Class 3 : under 750W, limitted to 28 mph by PAS (+/- throttle, limitted to 20 mph)

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf

Please be careful with your words.

I started the thread with reference to class 2 pedelecs. You reference to a class 1 pedelec was off topic so I just pointed that out.

 

[ymarty]

As population density continues to increase, more and more cities are looking for alternatives to automobiles. Ebikes are relatively new and laws are just starting to come in line with the ebike population. Washington state just passed Senate Bill 6434 which became effective 6/7/2018 and similar bills are in the works for other states with expectations of becoming law within the next 12 months. Laws are ambiguous and viewed by interpretation. I think that no matter where you are or how you interpret the rules for your area, inevitably someone else, like a police officer, may see it differently. Trying to split hairs over laws is a waste of energy. It is your responsibility to ensure that whatever bike you buy, make or modify, meets the rules and guidelines of your local jurisdiction. I believe that most riders are responsible and do their best to follow the rules. Bike malfunctions happen but In the end, its up to you to make sure that your bike is safe, in working order and complies. If you do not, than you have to deal with the consequences.