Charging question - don't overcharge?

[m@Robertson]

Gentlemen,
<snip>
Easy!

Nice to see a thoughtful approach. Hopefully there are others who are doing the same who are just smart enough to stay out of the acidic discussion.

 

[m@Robertson]

As someone said before, our batteries might easily outlive many of us.

There are people who spend their spare time sitting in the garage and maintaining the batteries.
There are other people who ride their e-bikes and need any Wh available in their batteries to be able to complete the ride. The latter are called cyclists.

This post goes from simply wrong to patently, deliberately false. Is conflict really so important to you to sink this low?

 

[fooferdoggie]

they thing is like with Bosch we don't know how their charging is setup. but they are known for the longest battery life we don't know if cutting short the charge will cause the cells not to get balanced. with cheaper batteries it can really help but with knows with a smart charger? so for those its just a guess if charging to 80% really does benefit.

 

[AHicks]

Gentlemen,
I've just read the entire thread and I'm surprised at how excited/ angry people are w/r/t to charging regimens.
Bottom line is we're all here because we love riding our bikes and naturally want to be enjoy them to the fullest extent.
Batteries are expensive so why not use the available scientific knowledge to extend their usefulness? Stromer 983Wh battery is close to 2000$ !!!!
A couple of steps ( satiator, percentage monitoring, voltmeter etc) can very easily mitigate deterioration. Possibly extend 2 or 3 fold the battery life AND save you hundreds or thousands of dollars and be good for the environment ( less waste). And in no way strip you of any enjoyment of your favorite gizmo.
One has to weigh the pro and cons ( in $'s , environment) versus the very mild inconveniences of charging hygiene. I like to ride, use my bike to the fullest capabilities and protect my investment.
These are NOT mutually exclusive things
My Stromer displays percentage while charging. When I got it I looked at the time it took to add 1% while charging. 2,58 minutes . If I am at 54% after a ride and want to charge to 80%, I use my phone calculator. 80-54=26. 26X 2,58= 67 minutes. Works everytime to +- 1%. Voilà! Easy!
Didn't cost me anything in termes of fancy additional gear/ charger/ voltmeter.
Obviously I am lucky that the percentage is visible on the bike and am aware this might not work for many people who would then have to rely on other methods stated above
If I want to go for a long ride , do as others have said and top it off just before leaving.

My own standpoint is from a more practical standpoint. Prove it's worth my trouble to jump through the hoops required to do the 80% thing correctly. I can read, I know what the experts say and studies indicate, but that's all on just paper. That's the way it SHOULD work.

The bigger question, IMHO, is going to take a while longer to come into focus. E-bikes are still in their infancy. For instance, where are all the failed batteries that have resulted from being charged to 100% every time they are charged? Do you hear a lot about those? When that pile develops into something I see/hear about regularly, then I'll start paying more attention. Yes, a big believer in SHOW ME! Justify the results that are shown on paper....

Contributing to my attitude maybe, is a battery purchased from RAD in 2016. Not an expensive high end battery, more of a plain vanilla. It's had the crap run out of it, and it's still going strong after being charged to 100% every time.

 

[m@Robertson]

they thing is like with Bosch we don't know how their charging is setup. but they are known for the longest battery life we don't know if cutting short the charge will cause the cells not to get balanced. with cheaper batteries it can really help but with knows with a smart charger? so for those its just a guess if charging to 80% really does benefit.

No! This is why people need to be able to make informed decisions. The characteristics of battery cells are endemic to their underlying chemistry and have nothing to do with the brand or relative quality of their manufacture. They ALL act the same way. They all degrade according to the same rules. All of them. And they all benefit from the same care, if its taken. Results as you describe have nothing to do with the quality of the cells.

You get a whole slew of different issues when it comes to cheap cells, mismatched packs or a poorly-functional BMS.

I don't know what steps Bosch takes in building their packs, but my own custom packs benefitted from a hand-sort of a production batch of cells to determine the ones whose 100% charge value matched perfectly. Those cells went into my pack (and the remainder that had a slightly different top number went into another pack, where again all the cells matched) and I was using top-end Samsung 25R's, then 30Q's and lately, 40T's. A matched pack like that coupled to a quality BMS is going to have very little benefit from a 100% balance charge as the cells started out identical in the first place. So when they draw down and charge back up, there's no difference, and the matched quality cells all degrade at the same rate together.

You can choose to take some care with your pack or not. But don't do it out of ignorance unless you just want to be that way on the subject (in which case making pronouncements like the above are going to get called out, and rightfully so, so that someone else trying to learn the subject doesn't trust those words).

 

[Petropoliskhan]

The angry reactions of people sitting with a multimeter to achieve their 80% SOC, their name-calling and insults remind me some religion. Long time ago, heretics used to be burned.

Exactly. A timer. Not some stupid Satiator.

Look I don't have a use for a "stupid Satiator". I imagine most people don't, but why so bothered by it? Tomjasz has multiple bikes and many batteries and as a professional believes in their use.
It's all about keeping your options open and protecting your investment.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

My own standpoint is from a more practical standpoint. Prove it's worth my trouble to jump through the hoops required to do the 80% thing correctly. I can read, I know what the experts say and studies indicate, but that's all on just paper. That's the way it SHOULD work.

The bigger question, IMHO, is going to take a while longer to come into focus. E-bikes are still in their infancy. For instance, where are all the failed batteries that have resulted from being charged to 100% every time they are charged? Do you hear a lot about those? When that pile develops into something I see/hear about regularly, then I'll start paying more attention. Yes, a big believer in SHOW ME! Justify the results that are shown on paper....

Contributing to my attitude maybe, is a battery purchased from RAD in 2016. Not an expensive high end battery, more of a plain vanilla. It's had the crap run out of it, and it's still going strong after being charged to 100% every time.

Hi Ahicks, I am glad that your battery has held up so well through the years but I am sure you've heard of other instances where things didn't go as well. We're not necessarily talking about failed batteries but about extending their usefulness, about a better return on investment (many more charge cycles)
I am no scientist , chemist, battery expert and don't have the means to fund expensive trials.
So I rely on the experts who actually study these things (academics) who have no vested interest one way or another. And people such @Ravi Kempaiah who is probably , legitimatly one of the most qualified knowledgeable people on this forum having ridden many different brands / systems.
Seems to actually understand the science and has developed and manufactured these products
Also , maybe the reason battery manufacturers don't go out of their way to clarify good charging practices is additional sales of spares and replacements. Conspiracy? Tinfoil hat Lunacy???
What do you think?

 

[AHicks]

Hi Ahicks, I am glad that your battery has held up so well through the years but I am sure you've heard of other instances where things didn't go as well. We're not necessarily talking about failed batteries but about extending their usefulness, about a better return on investment (many more charge cycles)
I am no scientist , chemist, battery expert and don't have the means to fund expensive trials.
So I rely on the experts who actually study these things (academics) who have no vested interest one way or another. And people such @Ravi Kempaiah who is probably , legitimatly one of the most qualified knowledgeable people on this forum having ridden many different brands / systems.
Seems to actually understand the science and has developed and manufactured these products
Also , maybe the reason battery manufacturers don't go out of their way to clarify good charging practices is additional sales of spares and replacements. Conspiracy? Tinfoil hat Lunacy???
What do you think?

Show me. Give me solid physical first hand results gained over several years time.

I mentioned one battery I have that seems to be contradicting solid evidence (on paper) that says it should have been dead/unusable by now. Many more here have made similar comments. Maybe the battery isn't 100% of what it was originally, but it's still plenty functional. To my way of thinking it could die tomorrow and it wouldn't make me angry. It's paid for itself easily.

Last thought, this is a POS battery in many peoples minds. It could be replaced for 20% of the price of some people's "high quality" battery replacement costs. It's gone 6 years and counting. If it died tomorrow, I could throw it away and buy another 4 times for the price of these better, higher grade batteries. 4 times 6 years = 24 years of battery power, all the while charging to 100% worry free, no hoops involved.

Please justify expensive high end batteries.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

tomjasz has multiple bikes and many batteries and as a professional believes in their use.

He is not leaving his garage but rather is a priest of the cult

 

[m@Robertson]

Show me. Give me solid physical first hand results gained over several years time.

This is from back in 2017. The topic is far from a new one. Look at who the source is, and his qualifications. Further research the topic and see if you can find any source who has any credibility argue otherwise. Someone thats not a deluded crank (like Solarshed ) and who actually knows what they are talking about. The list on this side is very long on people who are educated and who work in the field. While the deniers consist of cranks and people whose expertise lies elsewhere.

How to make a lithium battery last, or…kill it, if you like.

We have written in the past about tips that will help your expensive lithium battery pack last as long as possible. This article will cover some additional information about what happens inside the…

www.electricbike.com

 

[pmcdonald]

Prove it's worth my trouble to jump through the hoops required to do the 80% thing correctly. I can read, I know what the experts say and studies indicate, but that's all on just paper.

I can't prove it's worth your while - only you can do that - but I did have experience with fade on an earlier bike.

BH Evo Cross, purchased second hand and 3 years old with 80% battery health as reported by the store. I commuted daily on it, charging each night until the light went green. After a little more than a year of use I lost about 20% of my usable range.

I couldn't tell you what contributed to this loss - my charging regime, the previous owners use, the battery age or some mix of all these - but it was dramatic enough to encourage me to baby my next batteries. Like I said earlier, I'm still not sure it's ultimately worth the effort given my bikes will only see a few hundred cycles each at most.

PS: this is very much not directed at you @AHicks or anyone specific, but what's with the general cantankerousness around the forums of late? This used to be a place where civility ruled and insult was the exception. It seems more 50/50 in the threads I'm reading. Not a good development.

 

[AHicks]

I can't prove it's worth your while - only you can do that - but I did have experience with fade on an earlier bike.

BH Evo Cross, purchased second hand and 3 years old with 80% battery health as reported by the store. I commuted daily on it, charging each night until the light went green. After a little more than a year of use I lost about 20% of my usable range.

I couldn't tell you what contributed to this loss - my charging regime, the previous owners use, the battery age or some mix of all these - but it was dramatic enough to encourage me to baby my next batteries. Like I said earlier, I'm still not sure it's ultimately worth the effort given my bikes will only see a few hundred cycles each at most.

PS: this is very much not directed at you @AHicks or anyone specific, but what's with the general cantankerousness around the forums of late? This used to be a place where civility ruled and insult was the exception. It seems more 50/50 in the threads I'm reading. Not a good development.

That's hitting the nail on the head. There is very little actual first hand evidence for guys like me to sink their teeth into - yet. I'm self taught for the most part. I'm very lucky to be able to absorb new ideas through print pretty easily. I don't buy into everything I'm told though, even if/when I have a lot of respect for the source. I've learned, throughout my working career, to verify and audit. Here, that's pretty difficult.

I am not much of a follower. I learned to say show me. Not for everyone, I get that, and I've tried to make clear the fact the points above are my opinion. Use as you like, or not!

As far as the forum attitude, I'm good until somebody can't make a point without getting nasty. There's no need for that here, or anywhere else for that matter. -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

This is from my Samsung tablet settings...who just happen to be one of the largest manufacturers of Lithium batteries. But I guess it is still possible that the owners of a handful of batteries with no education in this field still know better.

 

[Gionnirocket]

My own standpoint is from a more practical standpoint. Prove it's worth my trouble to jump through the hoops required to do the 80% thing correctly. I can read, I know what the experts say and studies indicate, but that's all on just paper. That's the way it SHOULD work.

The bigger question, IMHO, is going to take a while longer to come into focus. E-bikes are still in their infancy. For instance, where are all the failed batteries that have resulted from being charged to 100% every time they are charged? Do you hear a lot about those? When that pile develops into something I see/hear about regularly, then I'll start paying more attention. Yes, a big believer in SHOW ME! Justify the results that are shown on paper....

Contributing to my attitude maybe, is a battery purchased from RAD in 2016. Not an expensive high end battery, more of a plain vanilla. It's had the crap run out of it, and it's still going strong after being charged to 100% every time.

I think you're asking for the near impossible.
The only way for an end user to shed some light would be to take two (at the bare minimum) identical batteries and try each charging practice and then discharge them under identical load conditions. That would be very difficult to do in any meaningful manner. This is when scientific experts, factory and independent testing is relied upon.
I mean do you do your own automobile crash tests or do you leave it to the experts?

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Show me. Give me solid physical first hand results gained over several years time.

I mentioned one battery I have that seems to be contradicting solid evidence (on paper) that says it should have been dead/unusable by now. Many more here have made similar comments. Maybe the battery isn't 100% of what it was originally, but it's still plenty functional. To my way of thinking it could die tomorrow and it wouldn't make me angry. It's paid for itself easily.

Last thought, this is a POS battery in many peoples minds. It could be replaced for 20% of the price of some people's "high quality" battery replacement costs. It's gone 6 years and counting. If it died tomorrow, I could throw it away and buy another 4 times for the price of these better, higher grade batteries. 4 times 6 years = 24 years of battery power, all the while charging to 100% worry free, no hoops involved.

Please justify expensive high end batteries.

Many me smarter than me have offered solid research papers (with plenty of facts and evidence) detailing why it may be beneficial. It is widely available. So it is there for you to consider or not.
I'm sure you understand that anecdotal "evidence " of your battery that fared better than usual does not and shouldn't discredit all scientific studies that go contrary to your opinion.
I am not going to justify buying expensive high end batteries other than to say that they came with the high quality bike I purchased. My assessment of quality being as worthy as yours.
best regars

 

[AHicks]

I think you're asking for the near impossible.
The only way for an end user to shed some light would be to take two (at the bare minimum) identical batteries and try each charging practice and then discharge them under identical load conditions. That would be very difficult to do in any meaningful manner. This is when scientific experts, factory and independent testing is relied upon.
I mean do you do your own automobile crash tests or do you leave it to the experts?

Nope. You're on a different wave length. I seek solid first hand evidence proving that I'm not wasting my time charging to 80% for the life of my battery. I'd like to see proof of concept for the claimed dramatic difference in how long MY batteries will last when charged to 80 vs. 100%

And I get it. There haven't been enough failed batteries to have that info available - which is part of my point. I'm not seeing this huge failure rate of batteries that have been charged to 100%.

You guys that don't like this idea can show me this big pile of otherwise properly used batteries that have failed early because they were charged to 100%, or just move on. Put me on ignore or do whatever you like. I really don't care who says what on paper. Let's just agree to disagree and wait and see what happens.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Nope. You're on a different wave length. I seek solid first hand evidence proving that I'm not wasting my time charging to 80% for the life of my battery. I'd like to see proof of concept for the claimed dramatic difference in how long MY batteries will last when charged to 80 vs. 100%

And I get it. There haven't been enough failed batteries to have that info available - which is part of my point. I'm not seeing this huge failure rate of batteries that have been charged to 100%.

You guys that don't like this idea can show me this big pile of otherwise properly used batteries that have failed early because they were charged to 100%, or just move on. Put me on ignore or do whatever you like. I really don't care who says what on paper. Let's just agree to disagree and wait and see what happens.

Now it's my turn to say.... Whoa, easy Mr. Hicks.
I really don't care what you do and I understand what your saying as I hear the same argument against climate change.
My point all along has been, if you're not using your full battery when you ride then it's easy enough to follow the 80% rule with no downside and probably adding life to your battery. People keep saying hassle, worry, stress to do so.. but it's really not any harder than charging to 100%
Now go enjoy the new ride

 

[AHicks]

Now it's my turn to say.... Whoa, easy Mr. Hicks.
I really don't care what you do and I understand what your saying as I hear the same argument against climate change.
My point all along has been, if you're not using your full battery when you ride then it's easy enough to follow the 80% rule with no downside and probably adding life to your battery. People keep saying hassle, worry, stress to do so.. but it's really not any harder than charging to 100%
Now go enjoy the new ride

Climate change not relevant but for the record I'm good to go there.

On the bold, again for the record, my point (to clarify in case it's been lost) is I ride daily, or several times a week at minimum. For this reason, I see no downside charging to 100% AS NECESSARY, when the battery voltage gets down to 45-46 volts (as indicated on the display).

I am NOT encouraging folks to charge to 100%, then leave their bike setting for a few weeks, or even a few days. Storing a battery at a lower voltage for extended periods is something I think a lot of us will agree on.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Climate change not relevant but for the record I'm good to go there.

On the bold, again for the record, my point (to clarify in case it's been lost) is I ride daily, or several times a week at minimum. For this reason, I see no downside charging to 100% AS NECESSARY, when the battery voltage gets down to 45-46 volts (as indicated on the display).

I am NOT encouraging folks to charge to 100%, then leave their bike setting for a few weeks, or even a few days. Storing a battery at a lower voltage for extended periods is something I think a lot of us will agree on.

edit
Climate change is relevant in that some want to see some further level of evidence before believing what the vast majority of people working in the field believe.

 

[EvolutionMonkey]

I always charge mine to 100% after every ride. I never let my bike go below 10%