Cargo bike comparison for steep street. RadWagon vs Flyer or ???

[AHicks]

What a friendly forum, where you feel the need to toss around insults. Second time, very friendly.

What kind of hill is the OP trying to climb? Did you ask? Difficult to actually make a recommendation without knowing the terrain isn't it? Have a good day.

Yes, my point exactly! That's why I don't tell people "my bike has no trouble" when you have absolutely no clue what the OP is looking at. As far as asking for/knowing the specifics regarding the grade he needs to negotiate, that info hand, are you willing/qualified to suggest what will get the job done for him with that info in hand, based on your experience with your first bike? No? Then what use is it, other than to waste somebody's time? Have you considered the exact grade that will stall your bike? The angle of the grade and/or the load that might be required to do that? How long it will take for that to happen?

If you think can estimate accurately, to the point you can recommend a bike without fear of a failure (resulting in a big loss for the OP), you're working above my pay grade....

 

[tomjasz]

oops for some reason I saw a trike.

First glance here too!

 

[ElevenAD]

Please point to where the OP said it's a 15% grade. They said "steep" which is a rather subjective term. Their perception of a steep hill in the midwest is very different of a steep hill out west, like I said in that post. What the people out here on the east coast would consider steep, might just be rolling hills for the guys on the west coast. No definition of "steep" was given in the OP. The OP also never mentioned the length of the hill they have to climb, nor did anyone bother to ask.

No one bothered to ask what the OP meant by steep, just went off on the apparent constant battle of middrive vs hub motor tirade. It's funny, in the 30 years I've been frequenting forums, every single one has that one polarizing topic. Apparently here it's middrive vs hub, everyone has their entrenched positions which they defend religiously without actually making any headway.

There's apparently thousands upon thousands of hubdrive bikes out there that cannot climb a hill according to some. Not everyone is climbing 15% grades, nor do they want to, most are climbing simple hills, which hubdrives are very capable of climbing.

Meh, big or small, middrive is still the better choice for hills imo. Op buys a middrive he does not have to worry about eastcoast or westcoast steep, why settle unless you have to. There is a big difference in climbing ability between the 2 motor types.

 

[m@Robertson]

What a friendly forum, where you feel the need to toss around insults. Second time, very friendly.

What kind of hill is the OP trying to climb? Did you ask? Difficult to actually make a recommendation without knowing the terrain isn't it? Have a good day.

You are the one who started this round with your snotty comment about a 'purse fight'. You threw a punch yourself out of the gate. Quit whining about ones coming back as a result.

Count me also as someone who has hub bikes and loves them - for what they are. In fact I just bought a hub motor I have been hunting down literally for years. Hope to have it in hand in about a week and if it is what its advertised to be, I'm buying another one. To go with the third slightly less powerful one I bought last month.

Everything has limitations. Knowing what I know about building and using cargo bikes, when someone says they have steep hills to climb, thats not the time to get out the inclinometer or consult Google Earth. Instead its time to leave behind the options that 'might' work and recommend the ones that *will* work. Always. Tell the person asking for help of the bike that will handle anything they can throw at it. If they can't afford that, or it doesn't suit them for some reason, then its time to start talking about compromises that might work if circumstances line up.

And at all times, don't ever tell someone a flat out false story; especially when you've had numerous, repeat arguments on the subject and have had *plenty* of time to go out and educate yourself. Instead, leading someone down a garden path that suits your personal agenda is inexcusable after its happened enough times (@JedidiahStolzfus I am not referring to you when I say this).

 

[oavdn17]

Not to derail this convo about mid drive vs hub drive...but I just published a review on the Flyer L885. Here is my take on it

 

[Elkman]

An e-bike is no different than a standard bike where the chainring and rear cassette can be changed to provide lower gears. Easiest usually to replace the front chainring but with a standard bike I have put a very large cog to provide a granny gear for long steep grades.

 

[m@Robertson]

An e-bike is no different than a standard bike where the chainring and rear cassette can be changed to provide lower gears.

Yes, but those gears only have something to do with the electric assist on a mid drive. On a hub drive they do nothing to help your motor help you up a hill, since a hub motor powers thru the axle. And thats the issue to consider when thinking about using a cargo bike loaded with say 100 lbs of stuff over top of the weight of you and the bike. My personal record is 565 lbs total system weight (it was on flat ground and it still sucked) but I have been over 400 lbs many times.

So the two (ebike vs. bike) are no different only if you are talking about a mid drive.

 

[Avg_Joe]

Meh, big or small, middrive is still the better choice for hills imo. Op buys a middrive he does not have to worry about eastcoast or westcoast steep, why settle unless you have to. There is a big difference in climbing ability between the 2 motor types.

I have both types and agree.

In the perpetual hub vs mid drive argument, where I've settled, and please correct me if I'm wrong:

• Hub drive cadence-based pedal assist is 1:1 with the speed of your pedaling. This seems to be the most common form of hub drive assist?
• Mid drive torque assist amplifies the power you put in.

I never really see anyone discussing this. To me, this is the absolute fundamental difference between hub and mid (aside from physical location, duh).

As an example: I live in a suburban area with many "gentle" hills, some sudden steep hills. On my Rad, regardless of what PAS level I'm in, I have to pedal like mad to get full assist on the sudden, steep hills. I imagine on a cargo bike, this would be the suck - because when I get home, my legs and hips are killing me from the furious pedaling and having to do this with even more weight - no thanks.

OTOH, those same hills on the torque-sensing mid-drive Vado, it is pedal effort, not pedal cadence. It can be tiring, but is satisfying and recovery is quick.

 

[Avg_Joe]

Small correction: that is a utility bike with a trailer. That is not a cargo bike. Equating your experience riding this with an 80-lb long tail cargo bike with additional load is like comparing, I don't know, a fish to a rock.

 

[AHicks]

I have both types and agree.

In the perpetual hub vs mid drive argument, where I've settled, and please correct me if I'm wrong:

• Hub drive cadence-based pedal assist is 1:1 with the speed of your pedaling. This seems to be the most common form of hub drive assist?
• Mid drive torque assist amplifies the power you put in.

I never really see anyone discussing this. To me, this is the absolute fundamental difference between hub and mid (aside from physical location, duh).

As an example: I live in a suburban area with many "gentle" hills, some sudden steep hills. On my Rad, regardless of what PAS level I'm in, I have to pedal like mad to get full assist on the sudden, steep hills. I imagine on a cargo bike, this would be the suck - because when I get home, my legs and hips are killing me from the furious pedaling and having to do this with even more weight - no thanks.

OTOH, those same hills on the torque-sensing mid-drive Vado, it is pedal effort, not pedal cadence. It can be tiring, but is satisfying and recovery is quick.

There's a lot to this, so I'll try to keep this short. When it comes to hub drive controllers, the majority of them are speed based, just as you suggest. There ARE controllers for hub drives that are NOT speed based. They're POWER based. You set the amount of assist you want under any situation, and it assigns a level of power to the motor, controlled by the PAS level you select. Speed no longer has any effect. You get that same amount of assist regardless of your speed. Where this speed vs. power based difference is noted mostly is at low speeds, like those 6-12mph.

The after market KT controllers all feature this (known as imitation torque control there), and the Bafang BBSxx drives (non torque sensor) will also let you run like this. Those are the only ones I know of.

 

[m@Robertson]

The after market KT controllers all feature this (known as imitation torque control there), and the Bafang BBSxx drives (non torque sensor) will also let you run like this. Those are the only ones I know of.

Yeah the only hub motor controllers I use are KTs and their behavior was the first thing I thought of. Not easy to put in a neat little box.

I'm making these numbers up for the sake of an example but they are roughly accurate on my 52v, 35a controllers: of a 5-level PAS, PAS1 might register as 125w, PAS2 as 250w, then 3=400w, 4=600w and 5=750w, but then you will also see a power decrease as rpms start to increase and you are cruising, so you end up eating very little power at higher speeds with high cadence. Also you will see a short term large power increase that actually ramps up fairly slowly over about 2-5 seconds (you will see up to roughly 1500-1600w on the display with a 35a controller) on low cadence and high resistance, i.e. going slow up a hill, decreasing as speed increases (coinciding with cresting the hill). There is no way to fine tune whatever algorithm decides all this as there's no access to it in a KT controller like there is with a Bafang mid drive.

When my 500w motor peaks to its rpm limit on my Bullitt, which is in the 22-23 mph range, power delivery will fall thru the floor down to 12-22 watts. In fact, I can tell if I need to re-grease the motor or perhaps simply adjust the brakes by the minimum power level I see. My last grease interval on my front Bullitt motor somehow went back together just a little wrong and I had to pull it back apart remove the new type of grease I chose to use, replace with something more time-tested and then and carefully reassemble to cure a minimum 60w draw at speed.

 

[AHicks]

Yeah the only hub motor controllers I use are KTs and their behavior was the first thing I thought of. Not easy to put in a neat little box.

I'm making these numbers up for the sake of an example but they are roughly accurate on my 52v, 35a controllers: of a 5-level PAS, PAS1 might register as 125w, PAS2 as 250w, then 3=400w, 4=600w and 5=750w, but then you will also see a power decrease as rpms start to increase and you are cruising, so you end up eating very little power at higher speeds with high cadence. Also you will see a short term large power increase that actually ramps up fairly slowly over about 2-5 seconds (you will see up to roughly 1500-1600w on the display with a 35a controller) on low cadence and high resistance, i.e. going slow up a hill, decreasing as speed increases (coinciding with cresting the hill). There is no way to fine tune whatever algorithm decides all this as there's no access to it in a KT controller like there is with a Bafang mid drive.

When my 500w motor peaks to its rpm limit on my Bullitt, which is in the 22-23 mph range, power delivery will fall thru the floor down to 12-22 watts. In fact, I can tell if I need to re-grease the motor or perhaps simply adjust the brakes by the minimum power level I see. My last grease interval on my front Bullitt motor somehow went back together just a little wrong and I had to pull it back apart remove the new type of grease I chose to use, replace with something more time-tested and then and carefully reassemble to cure a minimum 60w draw at speed.

You can mess with the KT parameters (adjustments) to adjust how much power you have in PAS 1 (I use 75-150w per rider 'druthers) but then just to confirm, the higher PAS levels are algo driven. I found the percentages used somewhere a while back. Just to share-
1, 13%.
2, 20%.
3, 33%.
4, 50%.
5, 100%.

I only rarely use PAS 3 and higher. So for me (and quite a few others I think) KT is mostly about the finesse available at lower speeds. Excellent low speed control and super reliable.

Really noteworthy are the newer controllers with the "waterproof" connectors. These make for a neat, compact install, with no rat's nest of connections near the controller. Tough to beat....

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

We have been working on a cargo E-bike prototype with a 1000 Whr battery, Gates belt system, and mid-drive motor.
The total payload, including the rider, is about 400 lbs.
We believe that a properly designed cargo bike can truly replace one's car. What do you guys think about a capable cargo bike like that?

 

[pmcdonald]

We have been working on a cargo E-bike prototype with a 1000 Whr battery, Gates belt system, and mid-drive motor.
The total payload, including the rider, is about 400 lbs.
We believe that a properly cargo bike can truly replace one's car. What do you guys think about a capable cargo bike like that?

Ohh! A Tern competitor. Bring it Ravi! Do you think you can achieve it for similar dollars to a GSD?