Cannondale Topstone Gravel Ebike

[Spicy Legato]

It's too bad you guys are going through this crap with Cannondale and REI. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my Lefty 3 has the 20mph cutoff and it sucks, because this motor has tons of power and it's no fun when the motor cuts out at 19mph (yes, mine cuts out early too....thank you Bosch ).

It really does just suck the life right out of the bike. It wants to go faster.

As I mentioned earlier, I know of at least one used Class 3 XL Lefty 3 available at the Lynnwood, Washington REI. It's a returned product, so they would probably give a good deal on it.
You have to be pretty tall to make it work.

I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the Speed motor from the XL and throw it in your Lefty 3? Then just return the XL with the CX in it.

 

[Spicy Legato]

Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration however I think you are overreacting a bit.
REI has a great return policy you can simply return the bike and shop for another one.

That being said gravel bikes usually come with cx or similar motors. Since they are marketed towards gravel riding 20mph is assumed to be sufficient. Even with cx that bike is still a great bike with a unique suspension setup and in this pandemic the price is very good. Moreover 28mph is a legal issue not a quality issue. CX version of this motor is just as good of a motor as the speed version(in the previous gen many people derestricted their motors and they were just as good if not better than their speed counterparts).

If Bosch let the dealers to decide the speed limit at the time of sale(via firmware) than this would not have been a problem to begin with. Since form factor is the same, on paper switching motors should not be a problem however I don't think Bosch or Cannondale will ever be ok with this, it is too much of a headache/ labor etc.

That's not how it works. If a merchant advertises a product, they have a legal obligation to deliver the product as advertised. Consumer protection laws vary from state to state, but generally false advertising is illegal. In this case, REI continues to falsley advertise these bikes as a Class 3. Furthermore, there are actual Class 3 versions of these bikes available. It's not outside the realm of possible for REI and Cannondale to make this right by providing Class 3 bikes.

In Washington State false advertising is a misdemeanor.

RCW 9.04.010​

False advertising.​

Any person, firm, corporation or association who, with intent to sell or in any wise dispose of merchandise, securities, service, or anything offered by such person, firm, corporation or association, directly or indirectly, to the public for sale or distribution, or with intent to increase the consumption thereof, or to induce the public in any manner to enter into any obligation relating thereto, or to acquire title thereto, or an interest therein, makes, publishes, disseminates, circulates, or places before the public, or causes, directly or indirectly, to be made, published, disseminated, circulated, or placed before the public in this state, in a newspaper or other publication, or in the form of a book, notice, hand-bill, poster, bill, circular, pamphlet, or letter, or in any other way, an advertisement of any sort regarding merchandise, securities, service, or anything so offered to the public, which advertisement contains any assertion, representation or statement of fact which is untrue, deceptive or misleading, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor: PROVIDED, That the provisions of this section shall not apply to any owner, publisher, agent, or employee of a newspaper for the publication of such advertisement published in good faith and without knowledge of the falsity thereof.

 

[Alaskan]

It's too bad you guys are going through this crap with Cannondale and REI. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my Lefty 3 has the 20mph cutoff and it sucks, because this motor has tons of power and it's no fun when the motor cuts out at 19mph (yes, mine cuts out early too....thank you Bosch ).

Well you had best save some of that gratitude to Ottawa as well as Bosch. After all Bosch is just doing what they are told.

It really does just suck the life right out of the bike. It wants to go faster.

As I mentioned earlier, I know of at least one used Class 3 XL Lefty 3 available at the Lynnwood, Washington REI. It's a returned product, so they would probably give a good deal on it.
You have to be pretty tall to make it work.

I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the Speed motor from the XL and throw it in your Lefty 3? Then just return the XL with the CX in it.

How tall? I am thinking of driving down to Lynwood and seeing if it will fit me at 6'1" and a 32" inseam. First hurdle is obviously standover height.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Despite the similar razzle dazzle on the website, the US Grails have the CX motor. The new Giant Revolt would appear to me anyway to be the best alternative, but it is outside the Bosch world. Not an issue to me, but to each his own. They’ve brought back the 500 WH battery, but who knows if you could even find one at all.

Uh, I still don't know whether the U.S. Grail:ON is Class 1 or 3 (despite of the motor used). It is very hard to buy any mid-drive motor road e-bike in Poland now. Giant Revolt E+ is even not offered for Poland in 2021! If I really wanted, I could get me an aluminium Creo including the extender battery (500 Wh) but with a low power motor and still 25 km/h restriction... The speed restriction is the reason why road e-bikes are not really popular in Europe.

 

[Tdete]

Well you had best save some of that gratitude to Ottawa as well as Bosch. After all Bosch is just doing what they are told.

How tall? I am thinking of driving down to Lynwood and seeing if it will fit me at 6'1" and a 32" inseam. First hurdle is obviously standover height.

My local REI gave the Lynwood store a call to talk to their bike tech yesterday about the XL they have when I mentioned it might be an option, they confirmed it’s also cutting out at 20mph and that’s why it was returned.

 

[Spicy Legato]

My local REI gave the Lynwood store a call to talk to their bike tech yesterday about the XL they have when I mentioned it might be an option, they confirmed it’s also cutting out at 20mph and that’s why it was returned.

Sorry you went to the trouble. The tech misinformed me that it's a class 3.

 

[Tdete]

You were right it was Class 3, I called them again today but someone had already purchased it, hopefully someone in this group!

 

[Alaskan]

You were right it was Class 3, I called them again today but someone had already purchased it, hopefully someone in this group!

That would be me.

I took a chance and drove down from Bellingham this morning to check it for size. By spec, I should be riding a large, but at 6'1" with a 32 inseam, I had about 2 inches of excess stand-over height and with the saddle most of the way forward the reach was comfortable.

It is a lively bike and big on the Yippie kayo factor. I am not thrilled with the drive train with the 11-42 cassette so I will likely do an Sram eagle 12 with a 10-50 cassette with AXS wireless derailleur.

On flat ground on the 11 tooth cog it is easy to get the bike up to 25mph in tour and kissing 28 in sport be my cadence is a bit to high (i will know the exact value when I get the new Nyon installed on it in a few days) going to a ten tooth will solve that.

I used to think my Allant 9.9 was my sports car while my R&M Delite mountain was my SUV. Now the Allant is lively coupe but the real sports rig is this Neo 3.

I am still working on setting it up the way I like and will report back after I have had the chance to do a few rides.

There is a Cannondale Topstone Neo Carbon 2 with the class three, 28 mph motor at Greggs Cycle on Greenlake in the Medium size. By the time the tech pulled the seat tube out enough to measure 30.5 inches (my saddle height) from the center of the crank to the middle top of the saddle, it was 1.5" beyond the minimum insertion point marked on the seat post, sticking out like a very sore thumb, just not quite big enough for me. It is at full price but is likely one of the few or only Neo 2s available right now anywhere. My take on the Neo2, with its fixed carbon fork, 40lbs. lighter weight and 2x11 front and rear derailleur drive train, is that it leans more toward a more road worthy profile and a bit less of a gravel bike, and frankly it is a bit less Frankenbike in its appearance.

I also sourced out a large Neo 1 in Wisconsin which has the Lefty For and comes speced with the Sram Eagle 12/AXS drive train the will cost another $2,000 to put on this bi the Neo 3.

 

[Spicy Legato]

You were right it was Class 3, I called them again today but someone had already purchased it, hopefully someone in this group!

I'm glad someone got it. I should of have bought it, swapped the drive unit and display with my large, then returned it.

 

[Spicy Legato]

That would be me.

I took a chance and drove down from Bellingham this morning to check it for size. By spec, I should be riding a large, but at 6'1" with a 32 inseam, I had about 2 inches of excess stand-over height and with the saddle most of the way forward the reach was comfortable.

It is a lively bike and big on the Yippie kayo factor. I am not thrilled with the drive train with the 11-42 cassette so I will likely do an Sram eagle 12 with a 10-50 cassette with AXS wireless derailleur.

On flat ground on the 11 tooth cog it is easy to get the bike up to 25mph in tour and kissing 28 in sport be my cadence is a bit to high (i will know the exact value when I get the new Nyon installed on it in a few days) going to a ten tooth will solve that.

I used to think my Allant 9.9 was my sports car while my R&M Delite mountain was my SUV. Now the Allant is lively coupe but the real sports rig is this Neo 3.

I am still working on setting it up the way I like and will report back after I have had the chance to do a few rides.

There is a Cannondale Topstone Neo Carbon 2 with the class three, 28 mph motor at Greggs Cycle on Greenlake in the Medium size. By the time the tech pulled the seat tube out enough to measure 30.5 inches (my saddle height) from the center of the crank to the middle top of the saddle, it was 1.5" beyond the minimum insertion point marked on the seat post, sticking out like a very sore thumb, just not quite big enough for me. It is at full price but is likely one of the few or only Neo 2s available right now anywhere. My take on the Neo2, with its fixed carbon fork, 40lbs. lighter weight and 2x11 front and rear derailleur drive train, is that it leans more toward a more road worthy profile and a bit less of a gravel bike, and frankly it is a bit less Frankenbike in its appearance.

I also sourced out a large Neo 1 in Wisconsin which has the Lefty For and comes speced with the Sram Eagle 12/AXS drive train the will cost another $2,000 to put on this bi the Neo 3.

Nice purchase, Alaskan.

Did they give you a cheaper price since it's used, and the trouble you've already had with the Neo 2?

 

[Alaskan]

Nice purchase, Alaskan.

Did they give you a cheaper price since it's used, and the trouble you've already had with the Neo 2?

Just the opposite. The Lynwood REI bunch are not the most accommodating.

They overcharged me, using the recently updated Cannondale price of $6,300 as a baseline rather than the price of $6,000 they still show on their website as msrp. Then they gave me 15% off a returned bike at the instead of 20% off a new one at the 2020 price. They ended up charging $5,355 for a bike with 220miles on it while advertising brand new ones at $4799.

The manager here at the REI in Bellingham said he would make it right.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I considered swapping out my Shimano GXR kit for the Sram 12 speed wireless kit, but it was more than I wanted to pay (and I've got another ebike on the way).
I'm not a fan of the 11-42 cassette with the 42 tooth front ring and I'm considering swapping the 42 for a 46 that is stock on the Neo Lefty 1, which comes with the wireless Sram kit and carbon front fork (and a much bigger price tag).
I couldn't believe it when I mentioned the swap for the front ring and they told me the motor's electrics would have to be 'adjusted' to work properly.

 

[Spicy Legato]

Just the opposite. The Lynwood REI bunch are not the most accommodating.

They overcharged me, using the recently updated Cannondale price of $6,300 as a baseline rather than the price of $6,000 they still show on their website as msrp. Then they gave me 15% off a returned bike at the instead of 20% off a new one at the 2020 price. They ended up charging $5,355 for a bike with 220miles on it while advertising brand new ones at $4799.

The manager here at the REI in Bellingham said he would make it right.

Wow. I also did not have a terribly helpful experience at the Lynnwood REI. I've always had a good experience at the Seattle flagship. I think they might just be overwhelmed at Lynnwood. Being in retail has certainly sucked the past year. REI always seems busy the few times I've visited over the past year.
It seems like REI would like to push me to simply return the bike. I'm not giving them the easy way out. They continue to falsely advertise the 2021's at $4799 as Class 3. I wonder how long before they get around to fixing that. I'm going to hold onto my bike with the expectation that REI will eventually provide me with the correct bike.

On another note, I found a place in Germany which sells the replacement battery covers for various Cannondale ebikes. They have the matching cover for the Lefty 3. I purchased a cheaper cover from another model which is a different color, but will fit just the same.

Battery cover Down tube top exit Product no.: K34209

 

[almikel]

I completely get that REI/Cannondale advertising a class 3 bike and providing a class 1 bike with the CX motor is wrong and a major PITA...
...but it sounds like there's no easy (or quick) solution, and the price is good, and the CX motor has a good reputation...

If the Bosch CX motor is as good/better than the Yamaha PX2 motor I have in my Giant Revolt e '20 then it is fantastic.

I'm sure it's a grey area legally - but I would feel entirely justified purchasing the bike at the reduced price and installing a dongle to set the speed limit at the appropriate class 3 limit the bike should be...

...I accept many would regard this as a bad idea...but a great bike available now at a great price vs waiting until 2022 ??

Dongles are a tricky install, and I would never advocate de-limiting an e-bike above the legal limit, but in this case the dongle gets the bike to the advertised legal limit for a class 3 bike...I'd just put a dongle on...

...or a bad ass box - which is easier, but it won't allow anything but 2 x the current speed limit, which is above the speed limit of class 3, and your display will read the wrong speed/distance etc...

cheers
Mike

 

[Spicy Legato]

I completely get that REI/Cannondale advertising a class 3 bike and providing a class 1 bike with the CX motor is wrong and a major PITA...
...but it sounds like there's no easy (or quick) solution, and the price is good, and the CX motor has a good reputation...

If the Bosch CX motor is as good/better than the Yamaha PX2 motor I have in my Giant Revolt e '20 then it is fantastic.

I'm sure it's a grey area legally - but I would feel entirely justified purchasing the bike at the reduced price and installing a dongle to set the speed limit at the appropriate class 3 limit the bike should be...

...I accept many would regard this as a bad idea...but a great bike available now at a great price vs waiting until 2022 ??

Dongles are a tricky install, and I would never advocate de-limiting an e-bike above the legal limit, but in this case the dongle gets the bike to the advertised legal limit for a class 3 bike...I'd just put a dongle on...

...or a bad ass box - which is easier, but it won't allow anything but 2 x the current speed limit, which is above the speed limit of class 3, and your display will read the wrong speed/distance etc...

cheers
Mike

I found a couple dongles which claim to display the correct speed, and maintain all functions. One was through epic ebikes in Australia. Something like $220 for the standard which unlocks to 30 mph. I feel like that is reasonably how fast one could go with pedal power and motor power combined. They also have a model which unlocks up to 45 mph. I just don't see the point, or how you could really achieve that speed. It seems like there are lots of dongle options.

I never leave Turbo mode, btw. It's Turbo or nothing. Give me Turbo or give me death.

On another note, it appears REI has slightly modified their webpage for the Topstone ebikes to include disclosures which were not previously present. However, they continue to falsely advertise. The two items below were not previously present.

• specs and images are subject to change
• * Intermediate markdowns may have been taken.

I think an easy solution is for REI/Cannondale to supply me with the correct bike. I don't mind waiting. Another option might be for REI to give me a considerable discount/refund on this bike. At the very least, REI could stop falsely advertising. It seems at this point they are aware of this situation, but only took some half-assed measures by adding a few generic disclosures they think will shield them from liability. Also, I don't think the price is that great where I live with taxes. Out the door the bike was $5300. I've seen a few legit class 3 Topstone Lefties advertised online a few weeks ago for about $5800 sans tax. So, for an extra $500, I could have gotten a legit class 3 bike. Instead, I was induced by REI's prevarication, thinking I could get this great deal and an awesome bike. Turns out, it's a mirage.

I wonder how the purchaser of a new car would feel if they were led to believe the car had a claimed top speed of 140 mph, only to find out the top speed is 100 mph, and the motor often starts to cut out around 90 mph. I wonder how that would work out if Chevy sold some vehicles like that?

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Well played, Richard! So you ended up with the full on Lefty version? I’m looking forward to seeing a picture of that thing up on the mountain sometime soon. Love that SRAM etap stuff, I would really like to put that on my Civante.

 

[Alaskan]

Well played, Richard! So you ended up with the full on Lefty version? I’m looking forward to seeing a picture of that thing up on the mountain sometime soon. Love that SRAM etap stuff, I would really like to put that on my Civante.

I got the Lefty 3 which has the Shimano GRX groupset an 11 speed derailleur with an 11-42 cassette and a 44 tooth front chain ring. For now I am looking into putting on a microspline hub on the bike along with a 1x12, 10-45 tooth cassette to gain both a bit of speed and also add the Sram AXS wireless derailleur. My cadence at 27 mph is a bit high to sustain for long so getting the 10 tooth cog should resolve that and the 45 tooth will give me better climbing around this hilly area we live in than the current 11-42.

 

[Deacon Blues]

The Lefty 3 comes with a 42T front ring, while the Lefty 1 comes with a 46T. That's the ring I want.

 

[Spicy Legato]

REI removed the Neo Carbon 2 closeout listing. It's possible they sold through the ten or so bikes they had. If so, that's 10 people who are not going to be happy about getting a class 1.

 

[Alaskan]

I went by our local Bellingham REI today and showed them how their outlet listing contained conflicting and inaccurate information about the Lefty 2 & 3 in their Outlet listing. They agreed that I should not have to pay more for a used bike that met the spec in their web site than I would have had to pay for a new bike from them as advertised. They said they were going to contact corporate IT/marketing and take down the web pages until they sort out the confusion regarding the bike's specs and components..

They voided yesterdays transaction at $6300 less 15% and charged me the $6000 less 20% as shown in the advert instead.

I have been riding most of the day today and really like the bike but will definitely have to extend the gear range, especially the high speed side. I can use top gear in sport mode on flat ground whereas with my Allant 9.9 with the same Bosch motor can only use the highest gear going down hill or with a stiff tail wind. The bike's modest suspension system, Lefty fork plus compliant rear triangle really works quite well. It is a fast comfortable bicycle.

Looking into drive train options I might do the 2x11 that comes on the Neo 2, if we can source the Bosch/FSA dual front chainring Putting a new Nyon on the bike on Monday, that Purion is not for me. By the way, My lefty 3 came with a 44 tooth chain ring but I still want a 46 tooth.