Cannondale Topstone Gravel Ebike

[Saratoga Dave]

Did some conflicting information come from Bosch somehow? A couple of days ago the Canyon site for the US version of the Grail:On said it had a CX motor but also said on both versions that they topped out at 28 mph. Today I see they’re back at 20 mph which is what you would expect.

 

[Spicy Legato]

@Spicy Legato I am curious if your bike has a class 1 sticker on it.

No Class 1 sticker, or any such sticker.

I've read a number of reviews from the USA which indicate this is a class 3. However, these bikes are all made in Taiwan, then shipped to various parts of the world.

I'm on my way back to REI. They are going to update the firmware. I know that computer stuff can be tricky with these Bosch units, such as when people change tire sizes, and attempt to adjust the computer via wherever they purchased the bike. If it's not a dealer who is familiar with these Bosch units they can't help much.

 

[Alaskan]

No Class 1 sticker, or any such sticker.

I've read a number of reviews from the USA which indicate this is a class 3. However, these bikes are all made in Taiwan, then shipped to various parts of the world.

I'm on my way back to REI. They are going to update the firmware. I know that computer stuff can be tricky with these Bosch units, such as when people change tire sizes, and attempt to adjust the computer via wherever they purchased the bike. If it's not a dealer who is familiar with these Bosch units they can't help much.

I think any review that shows the Neo 3 as a class 3 are reading the same wrong information off of Cannondale's site that the IT guy at REI used along with you and obviously many others.

Cannondale needs to clarify the actual specs of the bike and change info page on this bike and eliminate the confusion they have caused by showing conflicting specifications.

 

[Alaskan]

I double checked the Cannondale site to see if there is a conflict regarding the motor for the Neo 1 and indeed there is, exactly the same two locations and different information as found on the the Neo 3. The info on the Neo 1 and 3are the same, Speed in the Highlights section and CX in the Technology section further down the page. Only the info on the 2 is in agreement in both sections. Shame on them for not catching this and letting it go so long.

 

[Spicy Legato]

I think any review that shows the Neo 3 as a class 3 are reading the same wrong information off of Cannondale's site that the IT guy at REI used along with you and obviously many others.

Cannondale needs to clarify the actual specs of the bike and change info page on this bike and eliminate the confusion they have caused by showing conflicting specifications.

I've seen a few youtube videos with reviews where they are getting class 3 speeds. The class 1 Cannondale ebikes at REI have Class 1 stickers.

 

[Alaskan]

I've seen a few youtube videos with reviews where they are getting class 3 speeds. The class 1 Cannondale ebikes at REI have Class 1 stickers.

I am curious what the folks at your REI will have to say about the conflicting information.

 

[Spicy Legato]

I am curious what the folks at your REI will have to say about the conflicting information.

Their Bosch trained mechanic was not there today. While I was there they uploaded the newest firmware, which boosted me from 75 nm to 85 nm. They have a XL Lefty 3 on the sales floor. I asked if they would test that one out to see where the speed cuts off. I think the battery was dead, and/or the bike was not fully assembled. They were busy, so it didn't work out. I'll go back tomorrow.

If you watch the video below, at around 3 mins 13 seconds, you can see the speedometer, and hear the hum of the Bosch middrive. Dude is clearly getting assist over 20mph. Granted, this is the higher end Lefty 1, not the Lefty 3. You can see they have different displays. Similar to the Neo 2, the Lefty 1 has the Kiox display. The Lefty 3 has the Purion display.

I've watched this video numerous times, and I'm convinced that my bike should be a class 3. It's a super fun bike, but it's not very useful to me if the assist cuts out at 19 mph.

 

[Alaskan]

Before the test ride, "the dude" didn't bother to check the shocks, the tire pressure, battery level or how to operate the controls on the Kiox display. He did not know how to reduce the assist from sport mode. I was watching the speedometer when it could be read under a variety of circumstances and my conclusion is that the display was set to kilometers, not miles per hour. He was in the low twenties in some of the tight, twisty, root strewn turns and I don't think he was doing much over 12-14 mph.

 

[Spicy Legato]

Before the test ride, "the dude" didn't bother to check the shocks, the tire pressure, battery level or how to operate the controls on the Kiox display. He did not know how to reduce the assist from sport mode. I was watching the speedometer when it could be read under a variety of circumstances and my conclusion is that the display was set to kilometers, not miles per hour. He was in the low twenties in some of the tight, twisty, root strewn turns and I don't think he was doing much over 12-14 mph.

I think you are right about the display being set to kilometers.

 

[Deacon Blues]

My Lefty 3 has a 20 mph cutoff (Canadian law) and it sucks big time. With the power this bike has it's easy to ride in that 19 to 22 mph range. The power on mine cuts off early (19mph), so at speeds in the 19 to 22mph range I constantly have the power come on and go off. It's a gradual fade, but still noticeable.

Edit: The type of display has nothing to do with the motor cutoff speed. I plan, somewhere down the road, to upgrade to a Nyon display, but that won't affect my 20mph max motor cutoff.
I would be very surprised if the shop can change the motor cutoff from 20 to 28mph. From what I can gather the two motors are different.

 

[Alaskan]

I think you are right about the display being set to kilometers.

I just went to the Bosch site to look into whether the CX motor can be adjusted to a limit of 29 mph. It has a firm top speed of 20 mph. I also looked at several reviews which referred to the motor as a CX with an assist limit of 28mph in the USA...no such thing exists but people think it does because of Cannondale's misrepresentation on this product. You need a Performance line speed to 28 mph pure and simple.

Performance Line CX: the highest performance Bosch motor for eMTBs

Best eMTB experience: A powerful drive with unique dynamics and best possible traction on trails, thanks to the Performance Line CX with 85 Nm.

www.bosch-ebike.com

This confusion is ridiculous, all caused by some careless tech guy at Cannondale who did not get the specs straight. That it has been left up so long and so many reviewers are clueless about the Bosch range of motors and their characteristics. I am glad I bought the one that does not have conflicting specs on the company website..

If I were you I would call Cannondale on Monday, explain what your expectations were, and Cannondale's clear responsibility for the confusion and you not getting what you thought you were buying. I would ask them to install a motor on your bike that can support speeds up to 28mph as that is clearly what they have lead the public to expect. If, for technical reasons, they can't put the speed motor on the Neo 3 and you are willing to give up the lefty shock in favor of a carbon fixed fork, insist they upgrade you to a Neo 2 with the motor you were reasonably les to expect.

Maybe drop a few terms with serious legal implications, such as "reliance" such as: I relied on the specifications published on your website about the bike's capabilities and made my purchase decision on the basis of the Cannondale's representations.

By the way I am putting the Kinekt body float shock absorbing stem with 15-20mm of travel on my Neo 2 with 3.2mm shock absorbing bar tape on mine to compensate for the lack of fork. I hope it will be sufficient. I have a Baramind shock absorbing handlebar on my Trek Allant 9.9 with the stock carbon fork and do not miss having a front fork at all. Unfortunately they do not make a drop handlebar version.

Ride

Riding Baramind with a lot of good vibes!

www.baramind-bike.com

 

[Spicy Legato]

I just went to the Bosch site to look into whether the CX motor can be adjusted to a limit of 29 mph. It has a firm top speed of 20 mph. I also looked at several reviews which referred to the motor as a CX with an assist limit of 28mph in the USA...no such thing exists but people think it does because of Cannondale's misrepresentation on this product. You need a Performance line speed to 28 mph pure and simple.

Performance Line CX: the highest performance Bosch motor for eMTBs

Best eMTB experience: A powerful drive with unique dynamics and best possible traction on trails, thanks to the Performance Line CX with 85 Nm.

www.bosch-ebike.com

This confusion is ridiculous, all caused by some careless tech guy at Cannondale who did not get the specs straight. That it has been left up so long and so many reviewers are clueless about the Bosch range of motors and their characteristics. I am glad I bought the one that does not have conflicting specs on the company website..

If I were you I would call Cannondale on Monday, explain what your expectations were, and Cannondale's clear responsibility for the confusion and you not getting what you thought you were buying. I would ask them to install a motor on your bike that can support speeds up to 28mph as that is clearly what they have lead the public to expect. If, for technical reasons, they can't put the speed motor on the Neo 3 and you are willing to give up the lefty shock in favor of a carbon fixed fork, insist they upgrade you to a Neo 2 with the motor you were reasonably les to expect.

Maybe drop a few terms with serious legal implications, such as "reliance" such as: I relied on the specifications published on your website about the bike's capabilities and made my purchase decision on the basis of the Cannondale's representations.

By the way I am putting the Kinekt body float shock absorbing stem with 15-20mm of travel on my Neo 2 with 3.2mm shock absorbing bar tape on mine to compensate for the lack of fork. I hope it will be sufficient. I have a Baramind shock absorbing handlebar on my Trek Allant 9.9 with the stock carbon fork and do not miss having a front fork at all. Unfortunately they do not make a drop handlebar version.

Ride

Riding Baramind with a lot of good vibes!

www.baramind-bike.com

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. Also, it's not just Cannondale's fault. I read multiple "reviews" which stated this is a class 3. Obviously, if the fact this is not a class 3 was not caught by these "reviewers", they did not actually review anything.

I see that the Cannondale website specifically lists the Neo 2, which you ordered, as a class 3 capable of 28 mph. I'm hoping that turns out to actually be the case. If so, I will return the Lefty 3, and purchase the same bike you did. I might even throw a lefty fork, and 650b tires on it. It's just no fun when you feel that motor cut out at 19mph.

 

[Alaskan]

I have to disagree with you I think that this confusion started with Cannondale getting their published specs wrong. Most "reviewers" are not professional, immersed in the minutia of bike and equipment specs, especially a whole relatively new category like e-gravel and e-road bike. They, like us, are not wrong to rely on the manufacturer to get accurate specs. If they had to cross check the specs of every component of the bike they review instead of relying on the manufacturer's publish specification, it would take all the fun out of riding new bikes and pontificating about them. The primary responsibility for this mess is Cannondale. Too bad this has to tarnish our enthusiasm for our new bikes, but there it is.

I have read some reports of lefty forks pulling left at speed and having to consciously pay attention to keeping them on track. I don;t want a bike that does that. There may be a reason they don't offer the lefty fork on a class 3 bike. The Neo 2 with its higher speed rating and fixed fork is clearly a more road oriented bike. In addition to the more powerful motor it has 2x11, 22 speed drive train and more carbon parts that shave its weight down to 36 lbs. It might be a better bike for you IF you are doing more paved road riding. Given that you clearly have an itch for speed leads me to suspect that you are riding the roads more than the trails. I am more of a road rider but do get onto some trails and unpaved, poorly maintained logging roads from time to time.

If you swap out the 3 for a 2, I would suggest getting the Kinekt suspension, way better than the Redshift stem which pivots at one point and changes the angle of your handle bar when it does so. The Kinekt is a parallelogram which moves up and down without chaining the stem angle. It also has easily swapped out springs to adjust for rider weight. Add in a good padded oriented bar tape and his is a close to zero maintenance solution as opposed to a shock which needs regular service to keep working properly. It will cost around $200 and you might just find it to your liking. The left shock and hub will end up setting you back close to another $2,000 installed. Personally I am going to try this combo first and further investigate the lefty issues before I spend that kind of money.

 

[Spicy Legato]

I have to disagree with you I think that this confusion started with Cannondale getting their published specs wrong. Most "reviewers" are not professional, immersed in the minutia of bike and equipment specs, especially a whole relatively new category like e-gravel and e-road bike. They, like us, are not wrong to rely on the manufacturer to get accurate specs. If they had to cross check the specs of every component of the bike they review instead of relying on the manufacturer's publish specification, it would take all the fun out of riding new bikes and pontificating about them. The primary responsibility for this mess is Cannondale. Too bad this has to tarnish our enthusiasm for our new bikes, but there it is.

I have read some reports of lefty forks pulling left at speed and having to consciously pay attention to keeping them on track. I don;t want a bike that does that. There may be a reason they don't offer the lefty fork on a class 3 bike. The Neo 2 with its higher speed rating and fixed fork is clearly a more road oriented bike. In addition to the more powerful motor it has 2x11, 22 speed drive train and more carbon parts that shave its weight down to 36 lbs. It might be a better bike for you IF you are doing more paved road riding. Given that you clearly have an itch for speed leads me to suspect that you are riding the roads more than the trails. I am more of a road rider but do get onto some trails and unpaved, poorly maintained logging roads from time to time.

If you swap out the 3 for a 2, I would suggest getting the Kinekt suspension, way better than the Redshift stem which pivots at one point and changes the angle of your handle bar when it does so. The Kinekt is a parallelogram which moves up and down without chaining the stem angle. It also has easily swapped out springs to adjust for rider weight. Add in a good padded oriented bar tape and his is a close to zero maintenance solution as opposed to a shock which needs regular service to keep working properly. It will cost around $200 and you might just find it to your liking. The left shock and hub will end up setting you back close to another $2,000 installed. Personally I am going to try this combo first and further investigate the lefty issues before I spend that kind of money.

Thanks for the Kinekt stem recommendation. I've read reports of the older lefty forks having issues with tracking/pulling.

Riding from REI back to my apartment it was clear having a Class 3 would be more practical as I would not get passed by cars as often.

I was hoping to do two things with the Topstone Lefty 3. First, I intended to ride the Norther Tier route from Washington to Michigan in June. This is where I would definitely want to have class 3. Less time in the saddle, and less time mixing it up with cars. Then, in July, I wanted to ride most of the GDMBR. I'm sure I could do the Northern Tier with the same bike you ordered, but I wouldn't take it on the GDMBR. It's not so much the lack of suspension, as it is the skinny tires, which make Neo 2 less suitable for the GDMBR.

 

[Alaskan]

Thanks for the Kinekt stem recommendation. I've read reports of the older lefty forks having issues with tracking/pulling.

Riding from REI back to my apartment it was clear having a Class 3 would be more practical as I would not get passed by cars as often.

I was hoping to do two things with the Topstone Lefty 3. First, I intended to ride the Norther Tier route from Washington to Michigan in June. This is where I would definitely want to have class 3. Less time in the saddle, and less time mixing it up with cars. Then, in July, I wanted to ride most of the GDMBR. I'm sure I could do the Northern Tier with the same bike you ordered, but I wouldn't take it on the GDMBR. It's not so much the lack of suspension, as it is the skinny tires, which make Neo 2 less suitable for the GDMBR.

Yes the Neo 2 with its 700 rims can take a maximum of 40mm while the Neo 3 with its 650Bs can go up to 47mm

 

[Wandering Student]

I've been following this thread for the past week as I'm on the verge of buying the Lefty 3 from REI. This mystery could be quickly solved if the side plate on the motor was removed. I have a Gazelle Medeo T10+ and it clearly reads Performance Line Speed on the motor meaning it's a Class 3 with motor shutoff at 28 mph. I assumed the CX was Class 3 because of Cannondale's/REI's descriptions. My thanks to Alaskan and Spicy Legato for bring this discrepancy to the forefront. All the non-American reviews on YouTube say it's a CX and all American reviews say it's a Line Speed or that it can go 28 before shut-off. All those reviews can be correct because of the different international standards. I'm hoping this is a mechanic's error on the setting. To add more confusion, the other 2 gravel e-bikes I am considering, Niner RLT e9 RDO and Canyon Grail:ON CF 8, both specify the Line Speed and CX in their descriptions. These two are actually cheaper than the Neo Lefty 3 if not for the REI discount.

 

[Alaskan]

Any attempt to make a CX motor go faster than 20mph will result in it going into walk mode and hooking it up to Bosch software will reveal the hack, resulting in loss of warranty. The EU requires the manufacturers to detect when a class 1 is turned into a class 3. This is not a choice by Bosch but rather them staying in compliance in the regulatory environment where they sell the most bikes.

 

[Wandering Student]

Any attempt to make a CX motor go faster than 20mph will result in it going into walk mode and hooking it up to Bosch software will reveal the hack, resulting in loss of warranty. The EU requires the manufacturers to detect when a class 1 is turned into a class 3. This is not a choice by Bosch but rather them staying in compliance in the regulatory environment where they sell the most bikes.

Sorry, I wasn't advocating changing a CX motor in any way. My hope for Spicy Legato (and maybe myself if I decide to buy the Lefty 3) is that it is indeed a Bosch Performance Line Speed and the REI mechanic restricted it to Class 1 by accident.

 

[Spicy Legato]

Any attempt to make a CX motor go faster than 20mph will result in it going into walk mode and hooking it up to Bosch software will reveal the hack, resulting in loss of warranty. The EU requires the manufacturers to detect when a class 1 is turned into a class 3. This is not a choice by Bosch but rather them staying in compliance in the regulatory environment where they sell the most bikes.

Did you read my mind, because I was just about to suggest using a dongle? Bikespeed RS claims to have 4000 kilometers on a gen 4 without detection. They even allow one to chose between no speed limitation, and a 28 mph speed limitation. I would chose the 28 mph speed limitation. Also, if the dongle did not work, and I decided to return the bike, I doubt the REI techs are knowledgeable enough to notice, and if they did notice, I doubt they would care. Let's also not forget, Cannondale breached any contract/warranty from the get go with their misleading advertising. I'm simply trying to make myself whole by getting my bike to perform as advertised.

 

[Spicy Legato]

I've been following this thread for the past week as I'm on the verge of buying the Lefty 3 from REI. This mystery could be quickly solved if the side plate on the motor was removed. I have a Gazelle Medeo T10+ and it clearly reads Performance Line Speed on the motor meaning it's a Class 3 with motor shutoff at 28 mph. I assumed the CX was Class 3 because of Cannondale's/REI's descriptions. My thanks to Alaskan and Spicy Legato for bring this discrepancy to the forefront. All the non-American reviews on YouTube say it's a CX and all American reviews say it's a Line Speed or that it can go 28 before shut-off. All those reviews can be correct because of the different international standards. I'm hoping this is a mechanic's error on the setting. To add more confusion, the other 2 gravel e-bikes I am considering, Niner RLT e9 RDO and Canyon Grail:ON CF 8, both specify the Line Speed and CX in their descriptions. These two are actually cheaper than the Neo Lefty 3 if not for the REI discount.

Hello, Wandering Student. I'm not sure what to think at this point. This Lefty 3 is an awesome bike, and it would sure be a shame to have it limited to 20 mph. The Neo 2 that Alaskan purchased is pretty sweet. It would just be somewhat of a hassle to get some fatter tires on the Neo 2 for the GDMBR. I just don't get why Cannondale would limit the Lefty variation of this bike to 20 mph. It makes no sense. As Alaskan pointed out, it would cost at least $2000 to throw a Lefty fork, and 650b rims/tires, on the Neo 2. I might just have have to do that, however.

I'm going back into REI tomorrow. I'll see if I can get the mechanic to pop off the side plate. The Performance CX and Performance Speed look to have the exact same profile, shape, look, etc. Without popping off the side plate, as you mentioned, it would be difficult to tell them apart.