Bosch selling kit w/ gears to fix the Performance CX

[JayVee]

The Bosch Performance CX Service Repair kit is now available. This had been announced last year. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical but it seems that they're going to deliver on their promise.

It looks easy too. I think even I could manage that. All things being considered, it's not even that expensive.
My main complaint with mid-drives has always been that the nylon gears eventually wear out. Up to now your only choice was to replace the entire drive or have it serviced by a technician. The problem with the second solution is that now matter how good the technician is, there's always going to be a doubt about the quality of the repair without official parts. But now you can replace the gears yourself for 99 euros. Or have it done by your favourite technician. Great move in my book. It's what a lot of us have been asking for.


@Court should review the kit.

This video goes through the entire process.

 

[hurricane56]

Is it only for CX?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Guess I’m the only one who is hyper enthusiastic about this kit given the number of responses.

I think it's great. This could potentially enhance the service life of mid-drives by a large margin.

 

[Scooteretti]

So far have never had the need for such a kit in our shop. From MTB's, Long Distance Tourer's to Winter Fat Bikes we have yet to have a customer come back with bearing issues.

Time will tell I guess if these kits will be required.


Will
shop.scooteretti.com

 

[Rover1701]

The Bosch Performance CX Service Repair kit is now available. This had been announced last year. I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical but it seems that they're going to deliver on their promise.

It looks easy too. I think even I could manage that. All things being considered, it's not even that expensive.
My main complaint with mid-drives has always been that the nylon gears eventually wear out. Up to now your only choice was to replace the entire drive or have it serviced by a technician. The problem with the second solution is that now matter how good the technician is, there's always going to be a doubt about the quality of the repair without official parts. But now you can replace the gears yourself for 99 euros. Or have it done by your favourite technician. Great move in my book. It's what a lot of us have been asking for.

@Court should review the kit.

This video goes through the entire process.

Good to hear that Bosch offers an inexpensive repair kit that can extend the motor life which can be installed by the customer.

 

[Scooteretti]

@JayVee as mentioned time will tell if this is really an issue. So far we have quite a few customers with 20K plus on their drive systems with no issues. I can appreciate the wear aspect of a new drive vs a drive with 20K / 3 years + hard riding on them but will most people want a rebuild? Is it really required? I don’t know, hope that other forum members wil chime in with their comments on whether they have had to buy new motors / get rebuilds etc......

Eco friendliness? Throw away drives? Keep selling new ones? Ouch......

Will there be a motor issue out there with someone, probably yes. Bosch builds a lot of ebike motors so there’s bound to be something that pops up whether it’s from wear and tear, poor maintenance practices. Mountain biking would be the category where I can see this being the issue due to the amount of stresses applied to the motor.


What those rebuild #’s are is still to be determined as it hasn’t yet been an issue here in North America for the vast majority of riders and ebike shops.


Has anyone here on this forum completed a rebuild or about to do one? Would love to hear your feedback about how many have done / will do this rebuild. Please share your experiences and photos with fellow members.

Regards,


Will

Shop.scooteretti.com

 

[Scooteretti]

@JayVee I agree it is great that these kits are available as it does not make the motors disposable for the most part. Another big + for Bosch.

To all readers keep in mind that this repair kit allows you to repair damage to the right-side bottom bracket shell on second-generation drive units only that are outside warranty only and is for drive units in the range of product codes 0.275.007.020 through to 0.275.007.025.

I am basing my previous information on the North American market as this is where we (Scooteretti) are in tune with what’s going on. I cannot speak for other regions of the world as I do not have this data.

Looking forward to feedback on how many members on this forum have a need for the rebuild to the right-side bottom bracket shell and probably more importantly which bikes and types of riding they do. Mountain, commuting, cargo bikes etc....

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

A friend of mine owned a fantastic commuter bike by BULLS - Dail-E Grinder.
Pretty hardcore commuter and at about 7800 miles of fast commuting, the gears or something inside the motor conked out.
Nylon gears in a mid-drive when subjected to high-stress conditions (higher average speed, extra load etc) can wear out. However, Bosch was good with their support and replaced his motor completely. Here is a video.

 

[dblhelix]

@JayVee What those rebuild #’s are is still to be determined as it hasn’t yet been an issue here in North America for the vast majority of riders and ebike shops.


Has anyone here on this forum completed a rebuild or about to do one? Would love to hear your feedback about how many have done / will do this rebuild. Please share your experiences and photos with fellow members.

Forum user Haibike Rider did his own rebuild, which was the basis for the rebuild kit he put together and is now selling — both kits/rebuild service — at performancelinebearings.com A video is posted. As his service is based in the UK, he may have some insight about interest/demand.

Irrespective of demand, I think it’s a great PR move on Bosch’s part. I am also wondering (speculating) if this could mean a new engine design is in the not so distant future.

 

[hurricane56]

A friend of mine owned a fantastic commuter bike by BULLS - Dail-E Grinder.
Pretty hardcore commuter and at about 7800 miles of fast commuting, the gears or something inside the motor conked out.
Nylon gears in a mid-drive when subjected to high-stress conditions (higher average speed, extra load etc) can wear out. However, Bosch was good with their support and replaced his motor completely. Here is a video.

I know the guy in the video because I ride with him. He's since moved onto a Juiced Bike CCX. Amongst a number of us San Francisco Bay area commuters, we've all had our share of issues with motor and or controller longevity. The Dail-E Grinder in the video had a warranty battery replacement after a year of use. I've also had a warranty battery replacement on my Bosch Haibike. The most dramatic motor failure happened to a guy with a Specialized Vado. The motor belt snapped, then after replacement, the entire motor housing and plastic frame holding the pulleys cracked in multiple locations.

The fact that Bosch is releasing replacement parts is great, I'd like to see them provide individual motor components for sale.

 

[J.R.]

I don't own a Bosch. I am a fairly serious shade tree mechanic and I'm currently considering another bike. I thought I was settled on a BH Brose, but this kit really adds a lot of value to a Bosch powered bike for me. I am pleasantly surprised to see Bosch sell these. Makes me think if this goes well Bosch might offer more parts to the end user.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I think Bosch motor system is a very good one. After about 8500 miles on few Bosch powered ebikes, I can say I have never had a problem. May be because I kept consistent maintenance intervals. I have also had another friend who has about 13,000 miles on his without any problem.

The problems may arise in harsher riding conditions like MTB'ing or in extreme temp's or if you only use the highest level of assist. Overall, my experience has been very positive.

If i were to use an eBike under very punishing conditions, I would probably pick a Yamaha PW-X coupled with a Rohloff or something like that.

@J.R. you could install Rohloff any thru-axle bike and Brose S + Rohloff would be a sweet combo.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Hi.
One information I need please. Where can I find this number you are talking about as an example: 0.275.007.020
I own a 2017 Performance Line Bosch motor 63NM. Is there any kit for this motor ?
Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

public relations nightmare. follow EU and UK boards, where its been more much heavily sold than here, and you'll understand better why this kit is a necessity. for the premium you pay up front on a bosch powered ebike, this is frankly an incredible admission of an inferior product that charges a very heavy premium for what you are getting. You don't offer a kit like this unless you are having an unreasonably high level of premature failures. For those of you who think otherwise you haven't worked at a large manufacturer like this. Bosch had to do something, but if this kit is the best they could come up with to mitigate a PR nightmare, they have much bigger problems than this. They can't build a more reliable motor than this ? Or they have the wrong motor design in the first place ? Ouch ! (interesting to watch the naive takes here)

 

[Rover1701]

public relations nightmare. follow EU and UK boards, where its been more much heavily sold than here, and you'll understand better why this kit is a necessity. for the premium you pay up front on a bosch powered ebike, this is frankly an incredible admission of an inferior product that charges a very heavy premium for what you are getting. You don't offer a kit like this unless you are having an unreasonably high level of premature failures. For those of you who think otherwise you haven't worked at a large manufacturer like this. Bosch had to do something, but if this kit is the best they could come up with to mitigate a PR nightmare, they have much bigger problems than this. They can't build a more reliable motor than this ? Or they have the wrong motor design in the first place ? Ouch ! (interesting to watch the naive takes here)

Can you please share links? I'd like to understand why you consider the Bosch motor and inferior product.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

This kit is in response to all the bearing failures they have been having. (not looseness of 'gears' or wear in them, which really occurs due to the bearings failing) Which is due to not just the significant forces that the rider places on the crank, but the forces exhibited by the motor through the drive train at the transmission shaft. Bosch's design has always had this issue of how they handle the gearing ratio between the riders crank transferred to the shaft, that then goes through a set of internal gears, before being transmitted back out to the drive gear to the rear. (i.e. when you pedal and move that crank, you dont have a direct transfer to the cog that drives the chain. There is effectively a 'shaft within a shaft' there.) While this allows Bosch to run a motor that is at much higher speeds, and as well deliver sufficient torque, and allow for proper rider cadence, it has always had reliability issues. Most people here have not been in or around this market long enough to understand the long history of mid drive failures, most of which has been focused around this transmission issue and efficiency at the crank, and then all the stresses that have to be accounted for right at what is effectively the bottom bracket on most bikes. The design also places a lot of stress on the gears, that are spinning at rather high speeds as well. No failures should happen on any motor within a 2 year warranty, but they have been happening a lot with Bosch, and so their warranty costs have been rather high. (they didn't want anyone opening it, so it was send it back, and give them an entire new motor.) A lot of failures have been happening too, just after the warranty period expires, which is more of a PR nightmare, than a failure during the warranty, for many obvious reasons not the least of which it is not inexpensive to have an entire motor replaced. Not too many technicians existed that were even willing to touch the motor, outside of the warranty period. For those who see this as some sort of 'great' 'life' extension, to the longevity of the Bosch, my hats off to you on your doe eyed optimism. You are entitled to your view. But a larger perspective, and longer one, especially for all the consumers who have been on the wrong side of this for a number of years now, they would not share your view at all. Yes, they may be thankful a kit now exists, but its possible they just moved onto another brand by now. Relative to what you pay for hub motors, and how long they will last, and the significant premium you pay for a Bosch motor (and also its battery) it would stand to reason you really should be getting 20,000 to 30,000 miles out of a mid drive before anything of consequence is happening. Also, the $130 or $140 for that kit, doesn't address anything else within that motor housing. You can buy an entire hub motor, depending upon power and torque rating for between $80 and $100. 500 Watt/ 48 V motor mounted in a rim for $160.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Can you please share links? I'd like to understand why you consider the Bosch motor and inferior product.

I did NOT say it was an inferior product. Re-read the paragraph. I gave an opinion that the issuance of the kit itself, is an admission of an inferior product. (Put 2+2 together, and look at the history here, and how early in the motor life these bearings are failing and how often it is occurring.) Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the issuance of the kit or the reasons why. And no I am not going to post any links. You can find them yourself. I've done that before here, and they get removed. My perspectives are not based on links or what I just see on the internet. I talk to many industry people, and consumers with ebike issues, and have a mechanical engineering degree and more than 30 years of working with a lot of different mechanical/electrical technology, and thus have taken various of these motors apart to determine how brands are different, since I have lot of my life and personal money invested in this industry.

Anyway, just think about it like a forensic expert. Is Yamaha issuing a kit like this ? Is Brose issuing a kit like this ? Is Shimano issuing a kit like this ? If not, why not ? How many units does yamaha have on the market ? 6 Million ? How many do the other brands and Bosch have on the market ? x millions ? is this occurence because Bosch has so many more on the market than anyone else ? How many mid drives can possibly be on the market given sales here in US and Europe, where majority of mid drives have been sold. (in China, its mostly hub drives and much cheaper ebikes). Just ask a lot of questions, rather than just saying 'hooray' there is now a kit. Do your own diligence and dont just rely on this board or a few peoples opinions. Again, its a lot of money for a mid drive ebike with a Bosch on it. My perspective and following this market since 1999, I don't consider it an 'automatic' 'ok' that just because a Bosch is on an ebike, that its a premium ebike, that its an automatic sign of certain amount of reliability. Bosch is a big company and they do seem to stand behind their products. That is a good thing. Lot of people on this forum like Bosch and gush about them. That is ok. I'm not knocking that. I've sold ebikes with Bosch's on them. My take is a little different than some of the other takes here. I'll likely get crucified for it, as many are easily offended. Happens on forums everywhere.

 

[Rover1701]

This kit is in response to all the bearing failures they have been having. (not looseness of 'gears' or wear in them, which really occurs due to the bearings failing) Which is due to not just the significant forces that the rider places on the crank, but the forces exhibited by the motor through the drive train at the transmission shaft. Bosch's design has always had this issue of how they handle the gearing ratio between the riders crank transferred to the shaft, that then goes through a set of internal gears, before being transmitted back out to the drive gear to the rear. (i.e. when you pedal and move that crank, you dont have a direct transfer to the cog that drives the chain. There is effectively a 'shaft within a shaft' there.) While this allows Bosch to run a motor that is at much higher speeds, and as well deliver sufficient torque, and allow for proper rider cadence, it has always had reliability issues. Most people here have not been in or around this market long enough to understand the long history of mid drive failures, most of which has been focused around this transmission issue and efficiency at the crank, and then all the stresses that have to be accounted for right at what is effectively the bottom bracket on most bikes. The design also places a lot of stress on the gears, that are spinning at rather high speeds as well. No failures should happen on any motor within a 2 year warranty, but they have been happening a lot with Bosch, and so their warranty costs have been rather high. (they didn't want anyone opening it, so it was send it back, and give them an entire new motor.) A lot of failures have been happening too, just after the warranty period expires, which is more of a PR nightmare, than a failure during the warranty, for many obvious reasons not the least of which it is not inexpensive to have an entire motor replaced. Not too many technicians existed that were even willing to touch the motor, outside of the warranty period. For those who see this as some sort of 'great' 'life' extension, to the longevity of the Bosch, my hats off to you on your doe eyed optimism. You are entitled to your view. But a larger perspective, and longer one, especially for all the consumers who have been on the wrong side of this for a number of years now, they would not share your view at all. Yes, they may be thankful a kit now exists, but its possible they just moved onto another brand by now. Relative to what you pay for hub motors, and how long they will last, and the significant premium you pay for a Bosch motor (and also its battery) it would stand to reason you really should be getting 20,000 to 30,000 miles out of a mid drive before anything of consequence is happening. Also, the $130 or $140 for that kit, doesn't address anything else within that motor housing. You can buy an entire hub motor, depending upon power and torque rating for between $80 and $100. 500 Watt/ 48 V motor mounted in a rim for $160.

Interesting...what mid drive product has achieved 20,000 to 30,000 miles of (automobile type) trouble free operation?
I'm a realist, everyone has an opinion and opinions are not as reliable as facts... do you base your views on statistics or your personal opinion and or experience?

 

[Rover1701]

I did NOT say it was an inferior product. Re-read the paragraph. I gave an opinion that the issuance of the kit itself, is an admission of an inferior product. (Put 2+2 together, and look at the history here, and how early in the motor life these bearings are failing and how often it is occurring.) Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the issuance of the kit or the reasons why. And no I am not going to post any links. You can find them yourself. I've done that before here, and they get removed. My perspectives are not based on links or what I just see on the internet. I talk to many industry people, and consumers with ebike issues, and have a mechanical engineering degree and more than 30 years of working with a lot of different mechanical/electrical technology, and thus have taken various of these motors apart to determine how brands are different, since I have lot of my life and personal money invested in this industry.

Anyway, just think about it like a forensic expert. Is Yamaha issuing a kit like this ? Is Brose issuing a kit like this ? Is Shimano issuing a kit like this ? If not, why not ? How many units does yamaha have on the market ? 6 Million ? How many do the other brands and Bosch have on the market ? x millions ? is this occurence because Bosch has so many more on the market than anyone else ? How many mid drives can possibly be on the market given sales here in US and Europe, where majority of mid drives have been sold. (in China, its mostly hub drives and much cheaper ebikes). Just ask a lot of questions, rather than just saying 'hooray' there is now a kit. Do your own diligence and dont just rely on this board or a few peoples opinions. Again, its a lot of money for a mid drive ebike with a Bosch on it. My perspective and following this market since 1999, I don't consider it an 'automatic' 'ok' that just because a Bosch is on an ebike, that its a premium ebike, that its an automatic sign of certain amount of reliability. Bosch is a big company and they do seem to stand behind their products. That is a good thing. Lot of people on this forum like Bosch and gush about them. That is ok. I'm not knocking that. I've sold ebikes with Bosch's on them. My take is a little different than some of the other takes here. I'll likely get crucified for it, as many are easily offended. Happens on forums everywhere.

Thank you for sharing your perspective; you make many good points. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original post as it appeared you were questioning the reliability and high cost of the product which would make it 'inferior"; instead you were pointing out that the manufacturer was tipping their hand, and saying as much, with the release of this kit (thank you for editing your original post to clarify this). Unfortunately, no product is perfect and I welcome all feedback as I believe it's best to be informed on the pluses and minuses of this technology and hopefully it also helps it to improve it. Relying on just the marketing never tells the whole story.
How much experience do you have with Bosch? Are you a Bosch dealer?

 

[JayVee]

Hi.
One information I need please. Where can I find this number you are talking about as an example: 0.275.007.020
I own a 2017 Performance Line Bosch motor 63NM. Is there any kit for this motor ?
Thanks.

Check the documentation that came with the bike. I've noticed that in the manuals they often explicitly give the drive numbers. I say "numbers" because sometimes the manual pertains to several different bike models.