Bosch selling kit w/ gears to fix the Performance CX
- Thread starter JayVee
- Start date
"Yamaha... is the most reliable mid-drive motor on the market in North America...Period!"
"Over 25 different brands and 125 models, Yamaha components on Haibike have been the best selling mid-drive over the last 5 years... also, excellent range and efficiency"
"Yamaha has been around since the late 1800's they've been in the ebike market since 1989...over 30 years and they invented the modern day version of pedal assist in 1992-3.
"They make musical instruments too, so you know they make precision equipment"
With all these advantages, why aren't they (Yamaha) dominating the market in the US & the rest of the world???
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Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
All we have is our own experience and perspective. My perspective and strategy is different from Sam’s and some others who posted here but that doesn’t make either of them wrong.
The fortunate thing is motor systems at this point are much better than they were 8 years ago when I started my business. I really like what @Mike TowpathTraveler said above and I completely agree. I do hope we eventually get to a place where the bikes and motorsystems have the same reliability and serviceability as Automobiles across the whole industry. I believe some manufacturers are pushing the envelope for standards, but we’re still in early days and we have a ways to go.
For me I’m placing my bet on the horse I think we be around 20+ years from now as I plan to be here and I don’t want to be stuck trying to figure out how to support my customers. One of my indicators is overall reliability, but that’s just one. Investing in the space is a big one, this shows a commitment to a long term plan. We’ve seen many manufacturers pull out of the US or shut down so I wouldn’t put it beyond any company to do this. On the motor side we’ve seen Bionx and GoSwiss recently close up and they were trusted and recommended by many. We also worked with them for several years.
The last detail relating to who is best, as stated above everyone has their own experience and there are many ways to pull data but who’s to say how reliabile it is. To add to this, at the moment we don’t have much of any truely independent tests and most sample sizes are way to limited to really give an accurate perspective.
Regarding Battery Rebuilds: One thing I will mention just for clarity, you will probably not see a remanufactured battery from Bosch anytime soon due to UL requirements. I know it’s a pain but this is the only UL rated system and the only one I would trust to charge without monitoring so I think that’s worth something. For the other manufacturers we might see them sooner since there is less red tape to get through.
Anyway, as always I hope this is helps people create an informed opinion about these topics. We all have a lot to learn, including myself. For now I’ll let these resources and my experience be my guide.
The fortunate thing is motor systems at this point are much better than they were 8 years ago when I started my business. I really like what @Mike TowpathTraveler said above and I completely agree. I do hope we eventually get to a place where the bikes and motorsystems have the same reliability and serviceability as Automobiles across the whole industry. I believe some manufacturers are pushing the envelope for standards, but we’re still in early days and we have a ways to go.
For me I’m placing my bet on the horse I think we be around 20+ years from now as I plan to be here and I don’t want to be stuck trying to figure out how to support my customers. One of my indicators is overall reliability, but that’s just one. Investing in the space is a big one, this shows a commitment to a long term plan. We’ve seen many manufacturers pull out of the US or shut down so I wouldn’t put it beyond any company to do this. On the motor side we’ve seen Bionx and GoSwiss recently close up and they were trusted and recommended by many. We also worked with them for several years.
The last detail relating to who is best, as stated above everyone has their own experience and there are many ways to pull data but who’s to say how reliabile it is. To add to this, at the moment we don’t have much of any truely independent tests and most sample sizes are way to limited to really give an accurate perspective.
Regarding Battery Rebuilds: One thing I will mention just for clarity, you will probably not see a remanufactured battery from Bosch anytime soon due to UL requirements. I know it’s a pain but this is the only UL rated system and the only one I would trust to charge without monitoring so I think that’s worth something. For the other manufacturers we might see them sooner since there is less red tape to get through.
Anyway, as always I hope this is helps people create an informed opinion about these topics. We all have a lot to learn, including myself. For now I’ll let these resources and my experience be my guide.
Chris—the Raleigh Lore (2) I purchased from you folks at Propel is still going strong—almost 5000 commuting miles since purchase in July—I got a good grade on the interview as well
Thanks for everything ?
GuruUno
Well-Known Member
RE:batteries; with the cost of manufacturing and technology specific to electric cars (and e-bikes too), this statement my opinion about the cost of e-bike batteries, is as we move forward these costs have come down dramatically in the automotive industry, but not the e-bike industry.
When that happens, that will be the push to more adoption of e-bikes being embraced by more people, as it stands now, the expense out the gate is negated by the cost of the motors and batteries.
With the Bosch motor rebuild kit for 99 Euros that is a 'deal MAKER', but a battery at $850-900+ is a deal breaker.
From experience, I can say, that a new battery adds new life to an older bike with several thousand miles.
After paying $5,000 for a Super Commuter 8S+ and looking at what they sell for used, it's a disgrace. (several sold used for $2k or less on eBay recently and on NEW sold for $3100!!)
If I had money to burn, I'd buy a new bike when it needed motors or batteries (that's what the manufacturers want us to do right?), but quite frankly I think one should be able to obtain the battery for a more reasonable cost to prolong ownership and THEN maybe after 5 years (as technology improves), one might consider a new bike.
The market is becoming increasing flooded with more and more e-bikes, much like the auto industry will become in the next 12+ months.
Then, and only then will prices become realistic, as right now they are a tad too high.
When that happens, that will be the push to more adoption of e-bikes being embraced by more people, as it stands now, the expense out the gate is negated by the cost of the motors and batteries.
With the Bosch motor rebuild kit for 99 Euros that is a 'deal MAKER', but a battery at $850-900+ is a deal breaker.
From experience, I can say, that a new battery adds new life to an older bike with several thousand miles.
After paying $5,000 for a Super Commuter 8S+ and looking at what they sell for used, it's a disgrace. (several sold used for $2k or less on eBay recently and on NEW sold for $3100!!)
If I had money to burn, I'd buy a new bike when it needed motors or batteries (that's what the manufacturers want us to do right?), but quite frankly I think one should be able to obtain the battery for a more reasonable cost to prolong ownership and THEN maybe after 5 years (as technology improves), one might consider a new bike.
The market is becoming increasing flooded with more and more e-bikes, much like the auto industry will become in the next 12+ months.
Then, and only then will prices become realistic, as right now they are a tad too high.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Thanks! Glad to hear the bike is going strong and you’re putting some good miles on the bike. I hear your wife has one two now. I hope you continue to inspire others by your positive actions. ?Chris—the Raleigh Lore (2) I purchased from you folks at Propel is still going strong—almost 5000 commuting miles since purchase in July—I got a good grade on the interview as well
Thanks for everything ?
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Certainly a good point. I have definitely seen people buy bikes with batteries instead of the individual battery.
Many brands are figuring out how they play in this market and I think we will continue to see these sorts of price fluctuations from bike brands and shops that haven’t figured it out yet. That’s where we see it most. Sometimes there is a brand that gets their ordering wrong and their product does fit the market as they thought. We’ve also seen many bike shops hop on the electric bandwagon with little insight or training for their staff resulting in little sales and then closing out their inventory when the bills are due.
I will note that the price for battieries for Bosch has been going down. When we started with them in 2014 the 400Wh was $900 and now it’s $700. When the next battery (which I have to assume will happen) is released I suspect we will see the same trend for the 400 and 500.
I would love to see the prices go down but if anyone is comparing a Bosch battery to any other maker it’s not comparing apples to apples. The UL certification is the difference. The UL process requires a very long and expensive test and requires regular inspections to insure continued compliance.
My feeling is that eventually all major brand batteries will undergo this certification but for now it’s voluntary and Bosch is the only one doing it as per their company guidelines of ensuring their products meet the requirements of the leading testing agency for safety in the respective market, in the US it’s UL in the EU it’s CE. I do think this is important to consider this, so in theory if other brands adopt this their costs might go up a bit where Bosch can continue to optimize and lower cost on the de facto standard process while others will be stuck trying to learn and adapt to these requirements. Obviously this is speculation again, but if it was up to me everyone would have UL or a similar level of safety standards. Right now we are dependent on the individual companies own will to keep the batteries safe.
GuruUno
Well-Known Member
I may have gone off topic a bit from the initial purpose of this thread, not intentionally, but it is easy to do.
I'm still awaiting my LBS report back from Bosch in regards to my complaint about vibrations and noises from my Super Commuter motor, and I'm told that he (my LBS mechanic) provided this thread and associated videos to Bosch for reference.
I sure hope it's a positive push to have them repair or replace the motor.
I'd be devastated if I was at 7 or 8k miles with a failure that I've had warning signs about.
So, with that being said, any feedback from the others that participate in these forums as to what the labor cost would be if I had to obtain the kit and pay my LBS to do the job?
Just trying to plan my life, summer, rides, future with the bike I love.
I'm still awaiting my LBS report back from Bosch in regards to my complaint about vibrations and noises from my Super Commuter motor, and I'm told that he (my LBS mechanic) provided this thread and associated videos to Bosch for reference.
I sure hope it's a positive push to have them repair or replace the motor.
I'd be devastated if I was at 7 or 8k miles with a failure that I've had warning signs about.
So, with that being said, any feedback from the others that participate in these forums as to what the labor cost would be if I had to obtain the kit and pay my LBS to do the job?
Just trying to plan my life, summer, rides, future with the bike I love.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
We haven’t performed one of these kit installs and frankly I’m not sure if they are available in the states yet as the demand hasn’t been that high here as far as I’ve heard, but that’s not the official response. I would estimate 2-3 hours to do this swap. I would make sure your LBS checks the motor mount bolts as is can create noise and vibration.
I hope this helps.
Scooteretti
Active Member
Your warranty would be 2 years from the date of purchase even if there was a warranty replacement made prior to the 2 years. Warranties don’t start from 0 months if something is replaced.
Just like a car, tv, computer etc.....
Hope this helps,
Will
GuruUno
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply. That however leads me to this inquiry. If I have a bike that needs a motor, and I buy a motor, how long is the warranty for? Just saying....as an example; I buy a used SuperCommuter that is out of warranty. I either buy a motor direct or from a LBS, such as you. Investing the cost for a new motor and there is no warranty from Bosch?
Scooteretti
Active Member
If you are paying for a replacement unit you will get a new warranty. I would need to look into the length of this warranty but would assume it’s 2 years as well.
Note that the original drive core would need to be exchanged towards the new one and configuration required by Bosch to match the specs of your bike as it came from the factory.
GuruUno
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Regardless of if it was replaced under warranty or outright purchased as a new replacement unit, I would be of the belief that the unit would carry a 2 year warranty. It would be rather odd to have General Motors put in a new engine in my car and tell me if my original warranty expires in 30 days, all I have is 30 days warranty on a new motor...makes sense to me. Hence my inquiry.
Point here is I've been offered a used/demo replacement bike for the bike I have. The bike I have with the replacement motor has 1,000 miles on the new motor and I still have issues. Trek has offered me a LBS demo with a few hundred miles in perfect condition (with a paint nick), but there is no remaining warranty on the Bosch components. It would be stupid of me to walk away from a 2 year (supposed) warranty on my new replacement motor to get a replacement bike with no remaining warranty. A perplexing issue nonetheless.
Point here is I've been offered a used/demo replacement bike for the bike I have. The bike I have with the replacement motor has 1,000 miles on the new motor and I still have issues. Trek has offered me a LBS demo with a few hundred miles in perfect condition (with a paint nick), but there is no remaining warranty on the Bosch components. It would be stupid of me to walk away from a 2 year (supposed) warranty on my new replacement motor to get a replacement bike with no remaining warranty. A perplexing issue nonetheless.
You can send your motor to the guy in the video now and get your motor repaired from anywhere in the world. He says you get a new 2 year warranty when he repairs the motor. I think he is also a license bosh repair center but would check with him on that. I would have my bike shop take my motor out and send it to him. He gives pricing now for the repair work and I think it's reasonable. I would reach out to him and see what he says. I think the cost of having to ship to him in the UK is worth the value of getting my motor fixed versus buying a new one.I have a bosh ebike and I know that's what I'm going to do when my motor starts going.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
As an owner of two de-restricted Bosch CX equipped bikes. I recently purchased one of the repair kits to have on hand, just in case. Given that my warranty was voided when I installed the Bikespeed RS, this seemed to be a prudent precaution. I am pushing the bike beyond its designed parameters of speed and assistance. I wan't to be able to keep them running without having to wait for shipment from Europe. With several thousand miles on one bike and nearing 2,000 on the other, there is no sign yet that the reapir kit will be needed. Hopefully it will be like carrying an umbrella on a cloudy day...a precaution that wards off undesired circumstances.
If the device you are using is only manipulating the speed sensor input(which most of those devices do) you can not run the motor out of spec.
More importantly speed is not a parameter they use for designing. The things that matter are the cadence (rpm of the motor), the power output, rider's input, input voltage etc. Speed depends on cadence + independent variables like wheel circumference, gearing etc. (afterall the same cx motor is restricted to 15mph in Europe)
For example if you are pedaling 80rpm and motor is producing 350w it makes no difference whether you are climbing at 10mph or cruising on flats at 26mph. The increased airflow at high speeds will actually help cooling the motor and high speed cruise scenario will probably be better for the longevity of the motor.
Now one may argue that different riding conditions require different strength of components but then again mountain biking probably puts much more stress to the motor in general because you are constantly stopping and starting on the hills, going through mud, jumping over the rocks etc. and CX is meant to take that abuse so if anything CX should be the tougher option.
Unfortunately ebike motor companies are using legal restrictions as an excuse to price discriminate and get more money from the riders.
Scooteretti
Active Member
@GuruUno his 2-year warranty is most likely his own internal warranty and not a Bosch warranty. If a motor is replaced under warranty (customer doesn't pay anything) then the warranty expires after the initial 2 years. If a consumer purchases a new motor then the warranty starts with a fresh 2-year warranty just like most other products.
Bosch North America does not sell or stock the service kits. If your drive unit is still under warranty they will replace the drive unit if an issue arises. Drive unit issues are rare and honestly very few people will ever need to have this service work done. If in the rare circumstance that something did arise it's pretty unlikely that the consumer would experience an issue with the 2nd drive unit. If it was the case then I would suspect that the problems the consumer may be having are related more towards the care of the bike or how it is being used.
We have loads of mountain bikes out there and I can recall just a couple with issues. It's virtually non-existent and there really isn't many people should be worried about. You will be replacing out other parts on your bike before the drive units.
I know these videos have created a sense of panic some and people want these kits "just in case". But yet what's funny in our shop is that those very same people that mus have these kits just in case are the same people who will neglect to maintain their $800- $1500 forks and shocks per manufacturer specs.
Will
Bosch North America does not sell or stock the service kits. If your drive unit is still under warranty they will replace the drive unit if an issue arises. Drive unit issues are rare and honestly very few people will ever need to have this service work done. If in the rare circumstance that something did arise it's pretty unlikely that the consumer would experience an issue with the 2nd drive unit. If it was the case then I would suspect that the problems the consumer may be having are related more towards the care of the bike or how it is being used.
We have loads of mountain bikes out there and I can recall just a couple with issues. It's virtually non-existent and there really isn't many people should be worried about. You will be replacing out other parts on your bike before the drive units.
I know these videos have created a sense of panic some and people want these kits "just in case". But yet what's funny in our shop is that those very same people that mus have these kits just in case are the same people who will neglect to maintain their $800- $1500 forks and shocks per manufacturer specs.
Will
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