Bosch selling kit w/ gears to fix the Performance CX

[Rover1701]

Sam Townsend runs an E-bike dealership in California. Perhaps, he is the oldest E-bike dealer in the whole of the US. Starting way back in 1980's or early 1990's.
His store: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

In his experience, Yamaha has been the most reliable mid-drive motor out of all. In this video, he speaks about it.

Thanks for the info!

Court talks about the Yamaha system on this bike further here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/yamaha-ebike-motor-rpm-support.26857/#post-182665

We could get a better idea on which product is more reliable if total sales, total road/trail miles and the number of motor repairs were factored in.
Wondering if those metrics are published anywhere?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thanks for the info!

Court talks about the Yamaha system on this bike further here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/yamaha-ebike-motor-rpm-support.26857/#post-182665

We could get a better idea on which product is more reliable if total sales, total road/trail miles and the number of motor repairs were factored in.
Wondering if those metrics are published anywhere?

You could directly call him and talk to him. The fact that Yamaha offers 3 years on BOTH the battery and motor speaks more about their confidence.
The rest i.e., Brose, Bosch, Shimano offer only 2 yr on their drive systems.

I am yet to see a Yamaha motor failure as well. I have seen Brose, Bosch motor failures but not Yamaha.

Wondering if those metrics are published anywhere?

Some kind soul put together this comprehensive database of mi-drive motor reliability chart. Take a look:
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/motor-reliability-database-pedelecmonitor.13299/

The weblink also has detailed reports from users all over the world. This should give you lot of data points to gain better understanding.

 

[Rover1701]

You could directly call him and talk to him. The fact that Yamaha offers 3 years on BOTH the battery and motor speaks more about their confidence.
The rest i.e., Brose, Bosch, Shimano offer only 2 yr on their drive systems.

I am yet to see a Yamaha motor failure as well. I have seen Brose, Bosch motor failures but not Yamaha.



Some kind soul put together this comprehensive database of mi-drive motor reliability chart. Take a look:
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/motor-reliability-database-pedelecmonitor.13299/

The weblink also has detailed reports from users all over the world. This should give you lot of data points to gain better understanding.

Thanks!

Unfortunately it does not appear that the sample group sizes are the same at that link.
Since I think Bosch has the most units in the field by a fair margin, the data would have to adjust for this to reflect an accurate comparison.

Companies use many tactics trying to gain market share including offering longer warranties. I know of one unrelated company that does not offer any written warranty believing that their product's quality is so high, it's not necessary.

In Court's thread they talk about differences with Yamaha having lower torque and lower rpm pedal support with a belief that it was a good thing to extend battery life? One owner mentioned how fragile the display assembly is reporting they had to have theirs replaced 3 times not covered under warranty stating it was very unprofessional of Yamaha and Haibike.
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/yamaha-ebike-motor-rpm-support.26857/#post-182665

It's a given, there are going to be supporters on all sides, that's why unbiased data is so important yet difficult to obtain.

Is Bosch better than Yamaha?
Bosch may have the largest market share in the mid drive market now; did they gain it with marketing alone, not focusing on quality?
Only time will tell as the better products usually outlast and outsell the competition and poor quality can be more costly in the long run.

 

[Rover1701]

Sam Townsend runs an E-bike dealership in California. Perhaps, he is the oldest E-bike dealer in the whole of the US. Starting way back in 1980's or early 1990's.
His store: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

In his experience, Yamaha has been the most reliable mid-drive motor out of all. In this video, he speaks about it.

BTW: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) For transparency it appears that Sam (from the Yamaha Cross Connect Video above) is sitting on a Bosch powered Riese & Muller cargo bike on his home page although he does not appear to currently be a Bosch or R&M dealer. Nothing wrong with plugging what you carry and it appears he likes the R&M cargo bike enough to have it appear as the 1st pic on his home page (the pic is cropped however to hide the motor and bike brand). Like my dad always said...ask a Ford dealer what the best car is and you'll have your answer in four letters.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

For transparency it appears that Sam (from the Yamaha Cross Connect Video above) is sitting on a Bosch powered Riese & Muller cargo bike on his home page although he does not appear to currently be a Bosch or R&M dealer.

Your comment made me laugh!
Sam is well-known in the Ebike space and has been a dealer for a very long time. There is nothing wrong with googling but I wish you had done a bit more research.
He is a Bosch,Yamaha,Shimano,Brose certified dealer. In an era where people flaunt good online website but minimal inventory, he is a guy who carries a lot of bikes but not super internet-savvy.

Here is his store overview:

His store open house day that Court attended.

As you can see, he carries all kinds of brands and drive systems. Court even sought advice from him in this video.

R&M recently updated their website and dealers had to resign some paperwork. I am sure it's a glitch. Do you think they will ship him bikes without becoming a dealer?

BTW,

I think Bosch has the most units in the field by a fair margin, the data would have to adjust for this to reflect an accurate comparison.

Yamaha has been making drive systems since 1990's. They have millions of units in the Asian market. You're right to think that way but the actual facts may be different.
Bosch came into the market in 2008 or something, 18 years after Yamaha came into the market. They have definitely captured the European market but that doesn't mean it is true all over the world.
There are literally millions Yamaha E-bikes in the Asian countries and we are largely oblivious to it.

https://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/

Their technological know-how is quite deep: https://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technology/electronic/005/

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion and we all suffer from confirmation bias and want to think we are making the most educated decision.

Happy researching....

 

[Rover1701]

Your comment made me laugh!
Sam is well-known in the Ebike space and has been a dealer for a very long time. There is nothing wrong with googling but I wish you had done a bit more research.
He is a Bosch,Yamaha,Shimano,Brose certified dealer. In an era where people flaunt good online website but minimal inventory, he is a guy who carries a lot of bikes but not super internet-savvy.

Here is his store overview:

His store open house day that Court attended.

As you can see, he carries all kinds of brands and drive systems. Court even sought advice from him in this video.

R&M recently updated their website and dealers had to resign some paperwork. I am sure it's a glitch. Do you think they will ship him bikes without becoming a dealer?

BTW,



Yamaha has been making drive systems since 1990's. They have millions of units in the Asian market. You're right to think that way but the actual facts may be different.
Bosch came into the market in 2008 or something, 18 years after Yamaha came into the market. They have definitely captured the European market but that doesn't mean it is true all over the world.
There are literally millions Yamaha E-bikes in the Asian countries and we are largely oblivious to it.

https://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/

Their technological know-how is quite deep: https://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technology/electronic/005/

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion and we all suffer from confirmation bias and want to think we are making the most educated decision.

Happy researching....

Do you know how many Bosch and Yamaha units sold to date worldwide???

Do you know how many miles and 'failures per mile' on those units in the field, to date worldwide???

All the other stuff is more...blah...blah...blah…, opinions, sales pitches, etc. :

Ok, Sam carries inventory of Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Brose, R&M but does not market the full inventory on-line as he's not "internet savvy"; is that correct?

Is Sam openly stating to his other brands, that Yamaha is the best brand with the highest quality and lowest failures, unit for unit, compared all the other brands he carries?

In the video he talked about the famous Yamaha brand recognition (I've got many of their products btw) and stated "components of Yamaha are the most reliable of all the mid-drive motors in our store and we out sell all the other brands with Yamaha brands"

This video is a bit embarrassing if offered as proof of anything beyond personal opinions and a sales pitch for a new Yamaha bike by a Yamaha dealer.
Are we to believe he stocks every other brand in his store in the exact same quantities and prices and that his margins are the same for each brand so he never plays favorites and the customer purchases solely based on quality and failure rates???

Can he back up his reliability claims because he's operated in the Asian market for years gaining direct hands-on experience with Yamaha drives since the 1990's and has data to back it up?

In the video, Sam states he first became involved with Yamaha 3 years ago when he met with their reps and signed an NDA (non-disclosure agreement). By his own statement, he has 3 years officially selling Yamaha...how many units could one store sell in 3 years, not millions is it?

I suspect Sam is bound by the NDA he signed 3 years ago with Yamaha as with similar NDA's he's signed with the other brands.
Is he so confident he would risk legal action by playing brand favorites and/or openly disclosing damaging information on a brand he reps?
Don't think so...
Perhaps he's not entered into agreements with other brands?
In any business I'm aware of, a manufacturer would frown on a dealer openly underselling their brand over another and would cut ties with them, possibly seeking damages if substantiated.
Also, was the 1st Yamaha rep meeting and NDA, signed 3 years ago, only for the US market? (assuming he has prior Asian experience with Yamaha)

Now that Sam has openly stated that Yamaha is the best, will he be cutting all other mid-drive brands from his inventory? (To maintain a store image as a "quality only" dealer)

BTW: Court's a great guy and reports details well; he appears to endeavor to "not take sides" as I believe he derives his income from the community at large, not any 'one' company.

BRAND FACTS:

Yamaha founded Oct 12. 1887, Revenue $3,694,117,647.06 (2017)

Bosch founded Nov 15, 1886, Revenue $88,096,770,914.50 (2017)

By these standards...which is company is more successful and assuming made so, by selling quality products?

I believe most companies don't stay in business long by selling inferior products.
Bosch and Yamaha have their interests in many products and markets and both companies have resources to build to any quality spec they desire. It's assured with both of these long standing companies that the quality will reflect what ever market share they're targeting.

Just curious, your not a Yamaha dealer, employee, or rep are you?

The be clear, I'm sure you and Sam are great guys; I'm just getting old and I guess a bit too impatient when searching for unbiased metrics and getting what sounds like sales pitches instead.

 

[Rover1701]

Your comment made me laugh!

What comment do you find amusing?

He's a small dealer with small metrics that has a dated internet site; unless I missed that he has a large chain and sells thousands of bikes a month. Not that there's anything wrong with small business...

I'm sure that there's thousands of small LBS across the country with many different opinions; what business metric makes one opinion more special than another?

Are you his PR rep?

Ebikes are a great innovation...
Your avatar reminds me of Ivar's seafood slogan "Keep Clam and Eat at Ivar's" both inspired from the British 1939 poster "Keep Calm and Carry On" in preparation for WWII .

 

[Haibike Rider]

I see these same arguments on all the forums I visit, all over the world! Take it from me, each motor has its good points and bad points. Just know that nearly all the motors I repair have normally been damaged or destroyed by their owners.
They have not failed through any fault of their own. But, whether it is a Yamaha, Brose, Bosch, Panasonic, Impulse, etc. etc. They can all occasionally fail!
As Yamaha is being discussed here, and apparently, never fails! I can assure you, the crank bearings are not sealed and do fail. If water enters the motor, the printed circuit board is fitted to the bottom of the motor and so sits in the water! The clutch bearing thrust washers snap! The free wheel pawls wear to destruction, etc. I could write a similar list for all the motors out there but at the end of the day just buy what you want and go enjoy it. Safe in the knowledge that it has warranty or www.performancelinebearings.com to help keep you going.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

BRAND FACTS:

Yamaha founded Oct 12. 1887, Revenue $3,694,117,647.06 (2017)

Bosch founded Nov 15, 1886, Revenue $88,096,770,914.50 (2017)

By these standards...which is company is more successful and assuming made so, by selling quality products?

"So the company turned to one of its most trusted partners: the German supplier, Robert Bosch. Working from Volkswagen specifications, Bosch developed code that instructed computers in diesel engines to fully deploy pollution controls only when the cars were being tested in laboratories, according to lawsuits in the United States and Germany.
The code would form the basis for the so-called defeat devices, the illegal software installed on 580,000 Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche vehicles in the United States that has forced the carmaker to plead guilty to fraud and pay more than $20 billion in fines and settlements."

NY Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/bosch-vw-diesel-settlement.html

Trusted Phys.org science journal.

Bosch 'helped conceal' Volkswagen's emissions cheating devices

German car parts maker Bosch helped develop and conceal the so-called defeat devices used by Volkswagen to cheat on emissions tests, lawyers acting for US plaintiffs said in newly released court documents.
Both firms are being targeted in a mass lawsuit by US car owners affected by the "dieselgate" scandal, which erupted last year after VW admitted to installing manipulating software in 11 million vehicles to make them appear less polluting during lab tests.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-09-bosch-conceal-volkswagen-emissions-devices.html#jCp

Financial times:

Bosch has agreed to pay $327.5m to resolve allegations in the US that it played a significant role in Volkswagen’s diesel emissions scandal.

https://www.ft.com/content/964a2f72-e898-11e6-967b-c88452263daf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White lies are ok, marketing gimmicks are ok, mild dissing of other products is ok, little bit of cheating in very small scale is ok but cheating millions of people in the name of technology & business and helping cars to emit copious amounts of toxic gas is not ok.

I will happily purchase a drive system from a company that doesn't have this cunning mentality.

Money is not everything. Integrity is.

Mind you, I own 3- Bosch powered bikes and like them but I don't think they are the supreme drive systems.
I also like Yamaha more than my Bosch bikes for ride pleasure.

I have nothing to prove. I will let you continue your research.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Hi Ravi !

You wrote this: « I also like Yamaha more than my Bosch bikes for ride pleasure »

What difference do you see to say that ? Just curious.

I own a Moustache bike with a Bosch performance. I hesitated when buying my bike between Yamaha and Bosch. Since I did not have many reference point, I went with Bosch.

 

[erider_61]

I will happily purchase a drive system from a company that doesn't have this cunning mentality.

Money is not everything. Integrity is

Unfortunately Yamaha and other Japanese companies are no better when it comes to integrity...
https://www.apnews.com/5ed2b3027ab0458f96b0c9752b630e7d

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

You wrote this: « I also like Yamaha more than my Bosch bikes for ride pleasure »

John,
I have put some miles on both drives. Yamaha is MUCH more responsive than Bosch when it comes to instant engagement. Their zero-cadence technology is fantastic. Bosch has a bit of mechanical feeling. They tried to assuage that with the eMTB mode to bring in some fluidity but Yamaha PW-X is what you would call buttery smooth. It is more punchy in terms of power delivery.

@Dmitri has both kinds of drives. He has some videos of his bikes and you could look up his posts and other Yamaha owners can attest to this.

@erider_61 , do you think I did not google Yamaha scandal before posting links of Bosch-Volkswagen scandal?

I read multiple articles and here is the scale of what happened from your own posting.

"Improper inspections happened less often at the other two — 2.1 percent of 335 motorbikes inspected in the last two years at Yamaha and 3.8 percent of 1,875 vehicles inspected at Mazda over the past four years, the ministry said in a statement."

A total of 8 motorbikes from Yamaha were improperly tested at a factory and the company issued an apology statement. Mazda and Suzuki had a much bigger proportion.
8 motorbikes of Yamaha (an apology statement) Vs 11 million cars of VW, AUDI manipulated by Bosch (billions $ of fine) etc. I don't believe Yamaha is some kind of saintly company. But, I don't think Bosch has mastered this technology either. It is an evolving industry and in 5 years, most of the drive systems would have changed anyway.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

John,
I have put some miles on both drives. Yamaha is MUCH more responsive than Bosch when it comes to instant engagement. Their zero-cadence technology is fantastic. Bosch has a bit of mechanical feeling. They tried to assuage that with the eMTB mode to bring in some fluidity but Yamaha PW-X is what you would call buttery smooth. It is more punchy in terms of power delivery.


Thanks a lot for the info Ravi. I will try to find a bike with that motor when spring time arrive and will test it. Meanwhile i will try to find more info on that motor.

Cheers.

 

[Rover1701]

"So the company turned to one of its most trusted partners: the German supplier, Robert Bosch. Working from Volkswagen specifications, Bosch developed code that instructed computers in diesel engines to fully deploy pollution controls only when the cars were being tested in laboratories, according to lawsuits in the United States and Germany.
The code would form the basis for the so-called defeat devices, the illegal software installed on 580,000 Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche vehicles in the United States that has forced the carmaker to plead guilty to fraud and pay more than $20 billion in fines and settlements."

NY Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/bosch-vw-diesel-settlement.html

Trusted Phys.org science journal.

Bosch 'helped conceal' Volkswagen's emissions cheating devices

German car parts maker Bosch helped develop and conceal the so-called defeat devices used by Volkswagen to cheat on emissions tests, lawyers acting for US plaintiffs said in newly released court documents.
Both firms are being targeted in a mass lawsuit by US car owners affected by the "dieselgate" scandal, which erupted last year after VW admitted to installing manipulating software in 11 million vehicles to make them appear less polluting during lab tests.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-09-bosch-conceal-volkswagen-emissions-devices.html#jCp

Financial times:

Bosch has agreed to pay $327.5m to resolve allegations in the US that it played a significant role in Volkswagen’s diesel emissions scandal.

https://www.ft.com/content/964a2f72-e898-11e6-967b-c88452263daf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White lies are ok, marketing gimmicks are ok, mild dissing of other products is ok, little bit of cheating in very small scale is ok but cheating millions of people in the name of technology & business and helping cars to emit copious amounts of toxic gas is not ok.

I will happily purchase a drive system from a company that doesn't have this cunning mentality.

Money is not everything. Integrity is.

Mind you, I own 3- Bosch powered bikes and like them but I don't think they are the supreme drive systems.
I also like Yamaha more than my Bosch bikes for ride pleasure.

I have nothing to prove. I will let you continue your research.

Thanks for the feedback!
Interesting stuff.
It would be great to live in a world where everyone does the right thing.
As the old idea goes...All I can do to help the world is try my best every day and recognize and learn from my mistakes and try to do better next time.
It's always helpful when others are understanding.

 

[Dmitri]

Hi Ravi !

You wrote this: « I also like Yamaha more than my Bosch bikes for ride pleasure »

What difference do you see to say that ? Just curious.

I own a Moustache bike with a Bosch performance. I hesitated when buying my bike between Yamaha and Bosch. Since I did not have many reference point, I went with Bosch.

I also own both Yamaha and Bosch bikes, and once you try the Yamaha motor you will appreciate how much better it is. Yamaha has this thing where it spins up and spins down progressively, rather than abruptly, which greatly improves the response of the bike. For example, you have to start up Bosch in a low gear to make it easy for it to spin up. Yamaha, on the other hand, can start up from any gear and just bring up cadence slowly. Also, you'll notice that when you stop pedalling, Yamaha will still keep spinning the front sprocket, slowing it down progressively.

In other words, IMHO, Yamaha has a better engine. But Bosch has a better system overall. For example, my PW-SE screen is awful, barely readable. Yamaha has Bluetooth connectivity, but no app to go with it, expecting ebike manufacturers to write the actual apps. Bosch also has the Nyon, a sophisticated bike computer that tracks lots of stats, has Bluetooth/WiFi, GPS and OpenStreetMap built in with bike rides.

Given a choice, I would always go for Yamaha. I think, if I buy any bikes from now on, it will definitely be Yamaha and not Bosch, though I'm curious about trying Brose.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Dmitri: Interessing review indeed. I will, as said earlier, try a Yamaha motor for sure. I will have to find the right bike for me. I only use it for city riding and pleasure in paved trails. I need: fender, rear rack, lights and great milleage.

Thanks again for your info

Cheers.

 

[GuruUno]

Well, just turned 5,100 on my Trek Super Commuter +8S and took it to the selling dealer for 'spring service'. Last year at 2,500 miles I had them do a new chain, cassette and minor stuff. At that time I mentioned the motor not feeling just right, they said nothing to be found. However, I have noticed that as I progressed towards 5k miles that I have vibration and noise at time, especially when peddling hard and warmed up. They said they will check it. My warranty is up this June (2 years). Last week I was in Florida and rented a Specialized Como with a Brose motor, and I have to say it made me wonder what was wrong with my motor, as the experience was wonderful. I know new is new, but the rental Specialized has 2k miles on it and it rode like my Trek did when it was new.
Anyway, saw some links (especially this one) which made me wonder if I may have a Bosch motor with issues, or should I just by the kit and have my LBS mechanic do it at my cost?

 

[Haibike Rider]

The big debate over which motor is best / worst etc. will, I guess, rage on for ever. But, just for those who believe one motor is better than the others, here's what I have repaired in the last 8 days...

Bosch 2
Yamaha 4
Brose 2
Impulse 1

I don't currently do Shimano, although I am asked quite a lot (they're next on the list). So, judging buy the number of Bosch motors in this country, compared to the others, Bosch are actually doing pretty well!

How many motors that are sold worldwide is completely immaterial. Most ebikes in the world are used on road, and on road all makes of motor will last thousands of miles, with very few problems.
The fact that ALL these motors were originally designed for road bikes, always gets overlooked. And, yes, they will catch-up with the currently, relatively small MTB market, and motors will become a lot more water resistant and resilient. If you don't believe how long this takes large manufacturers, look how long its taking to get the Flyon to market!

I would like to share a story before you run from a good motor to a slightly worse motor. For some time, I worked for a large German company here in the UK (no, not Bosch), this company had a superior product in almost everyway. They only really had one main competitor, who's product was not as technically advanced nor was it as well engineered (this is an industry opinion, not just mine).
The company I worked for had 85% of the market when I started. People then started using this product with a fuel it was never designed to run on. Slowly, the forums and blogs, started lighting up with complaints about the product failing!
It wasn't the products fault, but it got the blame anyway. There were no such complaints about the competitor because there was nowhere near the same amount of products out there.

People bought the competitors product in their thousands, everyone said you should buy that one "coz this one's s*it". Once the market share got to about 50/50, the forums started lighting up that the competitors product was failing, and it was! But by now, thousands of people had bought an inferior product because of misinformation spread on the forums.

I am not disrespecting other motors and I am not disrespecting forums, I have a lot of respect for both. What I am saying is, look at the facts, read between the lines and apply logic before choosing one motor over another.

They will all have a small percentage of failures and the more common ones will seem like they fail more than the less common ones but just bear that in mind and ride what ever you want!

 

[bob armani]

I think Bosch motor system is a very good one. After about 8500 miles on few Bosch powered ebikes, I can say I have never had a problem. May be because I kept consistent maintenance intervals. I have also had another friend who has about 13,000 miles on his without any problem.

The problems may arise in harsher riding conditions like MTB'ing or in extreme temp's or if you only use the highest level of assist. Overall, my experience has been very positive.

If i were to use an eBike under very punishing conditions, I would probably pick a Yamaha PW-X coupled with a Rohloff or something like that.

@J.R. you could install Rohloff any thru-axle bike and Brose S + Rohloff would be a sweet combo.

If i were to use an eBike under very punishing conditions, I would probably pick a Yamaha PW-X [/QUOTE]-

I am now even happier that I have a Yamaha motor on my bike after reading your quote in your post. I have always believed in this brand, not just for E-bike motors, but also for anything from bathtubs to Hi-Fi equipment, pianos, etc for many years past. Me and others owned and have used their products extensively and they have always beat the competition by a long shot. That is also the reason I have chosen Yamaha in an E-bike knowing full well that I have yet to ever see them cut corners with any of their products hands down. When I found out they made E-bike motors, it was my focus to try and buy and I am doubtful I will ever regret it.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Great discussion, all around, really an enjoyable read! For those older american guys who remember the automobiles of the 60's and 70's; they'll all recall the arguments and mini-wars over which car was the best. You had your Chevy camp who swore up and down that Ford meant Found On The Road Dead. Over in the corner, the Mopar guys were laughing, saying nothing could ever top the 426 Hemi or 440-6. And don't get me started with the Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile guys, who all knew it wasn't the horsepower that won the race, but the torque. And to them, nothing beat the 455 engines found in the Pontiac, Buick or Oldsmobile muscle cars of that era; each 455 motor different from the other.....

Bosch vs Yamaha vs Brose vs Shimano vs Panasonic vs Bafang is the same argument for a new age!

This rebuild kit can be nothing but a win-win for a Bosch owner. I would ask that all of the major players in the drive motor business do the same and even go beyond just this gear set in offering up every item within that motor case for sale as a replacement/long term service part. With the high cost of entry to buy these bikes, my Haibike Full FatSix is going to be the first and last ebike I buy for a very, very long time. I mean, if GM, Ford and Chrysler can market all kinds of engine rebuild parts, power upgrade kits for their engines, why can't the major ebike engine manufacturers do the same???

And since you've got me here, how about a Battery Overhaul Service for the tens of thousands of ebikes already sold and having accumulated thousands of miles on their original battery? The board rooms at Bosch and Yamaha have to realize in order to gain more profits, support for their drive systems AFTER the sale is paramount for a happy customer willing to open his/her wallet. Let's have Yamaha and Bosch take in those 400wh batteries and upgrade them & warranty them with a new 500wh power system within that old case...

A shout out to Haibike Rider, Performance Line Bearings...... though not a customer (yet), I am appreciative for what you have done for the hobby/sport of ebike motor maintenance.

Haibike Full FatSix owner here. Yamaha PW drive, 400wh battery. Roughly 6200 miles on the odometer. Completely trouble free save for flat tires in the 2 years of ownership and counting. The sun here in New Jersey has come out again, something we've seen little of in this too long of a winter. Time to go out and add some miles to the odo clock!