BBS** Settings/Pedal Assist/Stop Decay *Excellent Motor Refinement *

[DavesNotHereMan]

With all due respect to those files most of them are garbage for a rider who commutes lol. I've only had my BBS02 a couple weeks but I spent months planning ahead and found almost every tuner only seems to care about mountain biking. It's a shame because the 'recommended' settings really suck when your pedaling fast on flat ground. Singletrack seems to be the dominant tuning style but it's pointless for commuters. I've been talking to a lot of other riders that bought branded bikes from Biktrix et al. and most don't seem happy with how the bikes perform. It may be prudent as someone selling these bikes to follow those files as guidelines but as a rider with MUCH experience commuting you simply don't want the motor cutting off so fast under any circumstances. It's a crappy ride and doesn't do the bikes justice when they can perform much better. The stop decay will be a safe setting to experiment with anyway, it's only adjusting the curve at which the motor decelerates. It let's the amps down gradually. I've worked with DC voltages for many years and never had a gradual power reduction damage anything built for it, like this motor is. I'm also prepared to rebuild my controller if I blow anything lol.

 

[tomjasz]

With all due respect to those files most of them are garbage for a rider who commutes lol. I've only had my BBS02 a couple weeks but I spent months planning ahead and found almost every tuner only seems to care about mountain biking. It's a shame because the 'recommended' settings really suck when your pedaling fast on flat ground. Singletrack seems to be the dominant tuning style but it's pointless for commuters. I've been talking to a lot of other riders that bought branded bikes from Biktrix et al. and most don't seem happy with how the bikes perform. It may be prudent as someone selling these bikes to follow those files as guidelines but as a rider with MUCH experience commuting you simply don't want the motor cutting off so fast under any circumstances. It's a crappy ride and doesn't do the bikes justice when they can perform much better. The stop decay will be a safe setting to experiment with anyway, it's only adjusting the curve at which the motor decelerates. It let's the amps down gradually. I've worked with DC voltages for many years and never had a gradual power reduction damage anything built for it, like this motor is. I'm also prepared to rebuild my controller if I blow anything lol.

Yeah, what would I know.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND and n00bs don’t jump in to programming and experimenting. I’ve had a number of experiences with owners toasting their controllers.
I enjoy reading your experiences. Personally I wouldn’t use any settings not found in the 20 .el files I have found.

Santo Bafango.. with all due respect
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the warning... But I'd almost guarantee that those experiences you are referring to are young'ns trying high performance settings. We're attempting the opposite here and trying to tame it and make it smoother.
I've already done better (for myself ) then those 20 .el files I've seen posted and I've used my settings for well over a year now. The settings being discussed here have been in play daily for 2+ months without issue.
Honestly the push_back I sometimes get from the so_called experienced experts comes across as just being stuck. And just because the founding fathers didn't figure this out doesn't make it wrong or dangerous. Seems everyone just keeps repeating some variation of some bs special sauce or that the 20 .el files from the founding fathers are written in stone like some sort of 10 commandments.
We're big boys here and I feel that I have a better understanding of what some of these settings do then anything I've read.

BBS Bible 26:15
Stop Decay(x10ms): 0\0\0\20\0 – The amount of time the system takes to cut after pedaling stops. Lower is faster. Kepler says.

Not true in the least bit... as in the past 2 months I've had Stop Decay set at a minimum of 60 and as high as 140.. I'm currently running 110 without motor run on or ill effect. Actually I think I'm getting better battery life as it also seems to be more efficient.

 

[tomjasz]

My point was there are idjets. That don’t do due diligence or seek qualified help in forums. 6 years of support calls and emails have clearly demonstrated the dangers for b00bs! I’m in no way be critical of sensible users. I’ve never reviewed every files but to say the available el files are garbage in my mind is just not true.

thanks for sharing and all you do.!!!

 

[tomjasz]

Santo Bafango.. with all due respect
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the warning... But I'd almost guarantee that those experiences you are referring to are young'ns trying high performance settings. We're attempting the opposite here and trying to tame it and make it smoother.
I've already done better (for myself ) then those 20 .el files I've seen posted and I've used my settings for well over a year now. The settings being discussed here have been in play daily for 2+ months without issue.
Honestly the push_back I sometimes get from the so_called experienced experts comes across as just being stuck. And just because the founding fathers didn't figure this out doesn't make it wrong or dangerous. Seems everyone just keeps repeating some variation of some bs special sauce or that the 20 .el files from the founding fathers are written in stone like some sort of 10 commandments.
We're big boys here and I feel that I have a better understanding of what some of these settings do then anything I've read.

BBS Bible 26:15
Stop Decay(x10ms): 0\0\0\20\0 – The amount of time the system takes to cut after pedaling stops. Lower is faster. Kepler says.

Not true in the least bit... as in the past 2 months I've had Stop Decay set at a minimum of 60 and as high as 140.. I'm currently running 110 without motor run on or ill effect. Actually I think I'm getting better battery life as it also seems to be more efficient.

Almost true.

 

[Gionnirocket]

My point was there are idjets. That don’t do due diligence or seek qualified help in forums. 6 years of support calls and emails have clearly demonstrated the dangers for b00bs! I’m in no way be critical of sensible users. I’ve never reviewed every files but to say the available el files are garbage in my mind is just not true.

thanks for sharing and all you do.!!!

I'm not saying that the file list is garbage... But I don't feel they address the commuter or exercise rider who want to maintain a constant cadence with the least amount of motor intervention with smoothness and refinement.
Besides if I cause anyone to burn their controller... I'll just direct them to you for the usual kickback

 

[tomjasz]

I'm not saying that the file list is garbage... But I don't feel they address the commuter or exercise rider who want to maintain a constant cadence with the least amount of motor intervention with smoothness and refinement.
Besides if I cause anyone to burn their controller... I'll just direct them to you for the usual kickback

all good!

 

[tomjasz]

If I had a dollar for every n00b f*ck up, I could buy a new BBS02 at full retail.

 

[Gionnirocket]

If I had a dollar for every n00b f*ck up, I could buy a new BBS02 at full retail.

I say that you experiment with Stop Decay and you won't need a new BBS02

 

[DavesNotHereMan]

My point was there are idjets. That don’t do due diligence or seek qualified help in forums. 6 years of support calls and emails have clearly demonstrated the dangers for b00bs! I’m in no way be critical of sensible users. I’ve never reviewed every files but to say the available el files are garbage in my mind is just not true.

thanks for sharing and all you do.!!!

I didn't say the files were garbage, I said they are garbage for commuters. Big difference. I'm sure on singletrack with a light bike and no speed limiter those settings are thrilling. They are, however, the exact opposite of the experience I bought my motor for. I'm not racing, going fast, or hitting the throttle downhill.

I actually joined the forum because I wanted to contribute to this thread. I've found a lot of the "tried and tested" advice, particularly for the BBS02, is over ten years old and simply shouldn't apply to the newer motors anymore. Things need to be updated, not adhered to like biblical code. A lot of the stuff I'm reading from 'experts' makes me question if they are really experts at all or simply the first to the table dispensing advice. I was told I'd never run a 12v lighting system from my battery without blowing my controller by someone, which is provably wrong. I've got decades of experience working around low voltage systems. There's nothing special or magical about these motors if you understand how they work.

I applaud @Gionnirocket for having the courage to post his findings, it's obvious that experimenting with these settings seems to ruffle some feathers with people. Granted there are many values you simply don't want to mess with in the programming but stop decay should literally be one of the safest to play around with in small increments. The commonly understood use of this setting, as was pointed out, is wrong.

 

[tomjasz]

I say that you experiment with Stop Decay and you won't need a new BBS02

BBS01 are my only drives. Sold all 3 BBSHD and one BBS02A. My only concern are for those that don’t do due diligence. Astute users aren’t the problem. When a customer kills a controller under warranty, actually any warranty support is not credited to reseller by Bafang. It’s brutal. Out of shops slim profit margins. I have a love hate relationship. They won’t release any changes by serial number. I’m worried they’ll do what they did with BBSO2A motors. Stop selling repair parts. I’m concerned they will drop versions in favor of proprietary newest kits.

 

[tomjasz]

BBS01 are my only drives. Sold all 3 BBSHD and one BBS02A. My only concern are for those that don’t do due diligence. Astute users aren’t the problem. When a customer kills a controller under warranty, actually any warranty support is not credited to reseller by Bafang. It’s brutal. Out of shops slim profit margins. I have a love hate relationship. They won’t release any changes by serial number. I’m worried they’ll do what they did with BBSO2A motors. Stop selling repair parts. I’m concerned they will drop versions in favor of proprietary newest kits.

Still the best DIY mid drive out there.

 

[Gionnirocket]

BBS01 are my only drives. Sold all 3 BBSHD and one BBS02A

I believe that the BBS01 does have a Stop Decay setting
I'm telling you that this setting is by far the best adjustment I've made to the controller to date... and I initially tried some of the tamer sacred 20.
You can take the red pill with us... or take the blue pill and forget you ever read this

 

[DavesNotHereMan]

Also hello @tomjasz! I hope I didn't offend you by being too direct. I've just been successfully challenging tech 'norms' for too long to give too much weight to any advice without a little experimentation to back it up. I'm also not a normal user from what I'm picking up, I didn't buy a BBS02 hoping to juice it to the max like a poor man's BBSHD. I bought a 750w knowing I'd be limiting it to 500 or less in the software, I just wanted the more robust controller. My bike is a tool, not a toy, so I need it reliably operational day to day. I live in Saskatchewan and commute through -45c winters. My BBS02 is going to do the work on hills so my knees don't have to anymore, I'm too old to be this hardcore lol. There are more and more riders like myself, especially in my community, the home of Biktrix. The average rider you see here is 60 and riding in traffic. They just don't ride the way these classic settings are tuned, and there certainly aren't any downhill trails in the prairies haha. Older riders for sure would benefit from having stop decay adjusted a little higher. It's simply more enjoyable especially when riding close to the 32km limit here.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I didn't say the files were garbage, I said they are garbage for commuters. Big difference. I'm sure on singletrack with a light bike and no speed limiter those settings are thrilling. They are, however, the exact opposite of the experience I bought my motor for. I'm not racing, going fast, or hitting the throttle downhill.

I actually joined the forum because I wanted to contribute to this thread. I've found a lot of the "tried and tested" advice, particularly for the BBS02, is over ten years old and simply shouldn't apply to the newer motors anymore. Things need to be updated, not adhered to like biblical code. A lot of the stuff I'm reading from 'experts' makes me question if they are really experts at all or simply the first to the table dispensing advice. I was told I'd never run a 12v lighting system from my battery without blowing my controller by someone, which is provably wrong. I've got decades of experience working around low voltage systems. There's nothing special or magical about these motors if you understand how they work.

I applaud @Gionnirocket for having the courage to post his findings, it's obvious that experimenting with these settings seems to ruffle some feathers with people. Granted there are many values you simply don't want to mess with in the programming but stop decay should literally be one of the safest to play around with in small increments. The commonly understood use of this setting, as was pointed out, is wrong.

Dave
One thing to note when increasing the Stop Decay to as high as I have it is that it seems to reduce the PAS Speed settings on page 1 slightly.
In first gear with a stop decay of 10.. I was going about 6mph before the motor would cut off.. Now with it set to 110 it was cutting off in the 4mph range so I had to make slight increases across the PAS table to compensate. YMMV
One thing that I just noticed today with the SPEED app is that there is a toggle for Speed % or MPH. (kmh)
As mentioned earlier I don't believe that to be correct. I'm pretty sure that the PAS SPEED settings controls motor rpm and thus depending on the gear you're in it will take you to a different speed before cutting out.
Let me know what you think as I'm wondering if the app can somehow adjust it differently than the pc software..though I can't imagine how unless you use it as a display as well.

And don't worry about @tomjasz aka Santo Bafango.. We're both thick skinned ol' farts who like to dish and receive

 

[AHicks]

Dave
One thing to note when increasing the Stop Decay to as high as I have it is that it seems to reduce the PAS Speed settings on page 1 slightly.
In first gear with a stop decay of 10.. I was going about 6mph before the motor would cut off.. Now with it set to 110 it was cutting off in the 4mph range so I had to make slight increases across the PAS table to compensate. YMMV
One thing that I just noticed today with the SPEED app is that there is a toggle for Speed % or MPH. (kmh)
As mentioned earlier I don't believe that to be correct. I'm pretty sure that the PAS SPEED settings controls motor rpm and thus depending on the gear you're in it will take you to a different speed before cutting out.
Let me know what you think as I'm wondering if the app can somehow adjust it differently than the pc software..though I can't imagine how unless you use it as a display as well.

And don't worry about @tomjasz aka Santo Bafango.. We're both thick skinned ol' farts who like to dish and receive

From the sound of things, it looks like Dave will be fitting in just fine with a bunch of grumpy old farts....

 

[DavesNotHereMan]

Dave
One thing to note when increasing the Stop Decay to as high as I have it is that it seems to reduce the PAS Speed settings on page 1 slightly.
In first gear with a stop decay of 10.. I was going about 6mph before the motor would cut off.. Now with it set to 110 it was cutting off in the 4mph range so I had to make slight increases across the PAS table to compensate. YMMV
One thing that I just noticed today with the SPEED app is that there is a toggle for Speed % or MPH. (kmh)
As mentioned earlier I don't believe that to be correct. I'm pretty sure that the PAS SPEED settings controls motor rpm and thus depending on the gear you're in it will take you to a different speed before cutting out.
Let me know what you think as I'm wondering if the app can somehow adjust it differently than the pc software..though I can't imagine how unless you use it as a display as well.

And don't worry about @tomjasz aka Santo Bafango.. We're both thick skinned ol' farts who like to dish and receive

One thing I've noticed about the PAS settings is that the current and speed settings (at least for me) don't seem to be as interconnected as some of the literature out there would have us believe. I've been experimenting a LOT with my own settings to prove this, many of my PAS have the same speed limit (32km) but different current levels. The result is dropout at different speeds (depending on gear, I agree with you here) always below 32km/h. But as I'm a hard pedaler I can often hit 32km/h at any of those settings. The motor always stays running up to the limit but I can literally feel the difference from the current rating, the lower settings are always providing appropriately less assistance. So at 32km those PAS are still fully functional, they just don't have enough current to hit those speeds without added wattage from pedaling. From my perspective those speed settings are 100% accurate but need to be understood as the speed at which the motor cuts off, not the speed to which the motor accelerates. That's somewhat a function of the amp settings.

Now as far as stop decay affecting the current applied during PAS - that's got me puzzled. My first thought is that an exaggerated stop decay setting (1100 in this case) might be interfering with pre-programmed acceleration curves at the firmware level. I have no proof of this of course and I'm likely wrong lol but it's the only thing I can think of atm. I'll see what it does to my settings and report back. Also here's a shot of my PAS settings today. 1-3 are for 95% of my riding needs. 4-7 are for windy days or running late. 8 is for a local hill I call the car crusher and those days I just don't give a hoot about my battery. 9 is technically illegal here but I can honestly pedal faster than that so I'm not worried lol. It's for a couple of long stretches on the way home that have 60km speed limits. It's also about the fastest I trust my bike to go without flying apart anyway hahaha

As you can see I actually use units to set speed instead of percentage. My average unassisted cadence results in a speed of 27 km/h so it's useful to have my favorite setting cut off just slightly above that at 28km. It's still fast and doubles the time between charges.

 

[Gionnirocket]

We are taking two very different approaches to Page 1 and as a result I'm very interested to know how Stop Decay will affect your ride. And I do think you are on to something as far as it affecting the power curve... but not that that is all that is going on.
Your approach is similar to those that use 100 for all the PAS speed settings and I'm taking the more traditional approach (founding fathers :- ) Your method is a bit smoother but in my opinion my approach feels more natural and is possibly a bit more efficient. In any PAS when I'm at my Speed (cadence) limit the motor is off. As I approach a hill or any other resistance like wind it starts to assist as needed to maintain that cadence and then drop off as I crest and start down the hill. So if I want constant gentle assistance I pedal just below the PAS setting. The current is set to the minimum required for various situations at that cadence. So even though PAS 1 is set to 65% (13a) it only reaches maybe 8a at most because the cadence setting starts softening the power curve before I reach it's maximum.. This translates to 6mph in first gear and I use this typically when I want to travel cautiously at low speed but with assistance. If on a steep incline a lower current setting doesn't have the power, but on a flat where you will accelerate faster it is quickly and safely tempered. My most used PAS are 4-6 and I vary depending on terrain, gear and how much strength is left in my chicken legs.
So for example if in PAS 4 and I want to increase speed I have two options. If I gear up I will go faster at the same cadence. If I PAS up I will go faster at a higher cadence. So as I ride and increase speed I typically bounce back and forth between going up the gear and PAS scale.

Though anecdotal. . It makes more sense for the Speed setting to be the motor speed as it is tied to the motor current setting. This drove me crazy in the beginning as I believed the same as you. . but then couldn't reconcile why the motor cut off at a different ground speeds depending on the gear I was in. I believe the SPEED app developer has followed us in our initial belief as much of the writing out there points you in that direction.
You mentioned earlier about making small incremental changes for safety. I too took this approach at first but it soon became obvious that it was very hard to feel and understand any changes made. I found it better to make big changes to better understand the impact of any setting and then use caution in my testing by starting in 1st gear pedaling slowly on a flat. Then slowly going up the PAS and gear scale until I could understand the change and back it down if need be. I believe ours and others prudent approach is what has helped hide the Stop Decay benefit. When first testing Stop Decay I started with a setting of 10, then 20, then 40 and then finally 80. The changes between 20 and 40 got me interested... and then the 40 to 80 jump got me totally blown away by how smooth everything felt.
I'm still experimenting with a Stop Decay between 80 -120 coupled with a Slow Start Mode of 5 - 4 respectively. For me a higher Stop Decay setting feels better with a lower Slow Start because as you theorized and equally in my mind the power curve softens and at a certain point needs to be countered.
I don't know if your approach on PAS Speed will give you a less desirable or somehow different result with Stop Decay... so the more people testing, the better.
OK... enough of this, time to ride!

 

[DavesNotHereMan]

This drove me crazy in the beginning as I believed the same as you. . but then couldn't reconcile why the motor cut off at a different ground speeds depending on the gear I was in

This I can answer! The speed limit is definitely only the upper speed limit cut off and has nothing to do with power to the pedals.

Power to the pedals is defined as watts. Watts also equal amps times voltage. Applying more watts (and thus more current because the voltage is relatively stable) in any gear will increase your speed AND cadence. The average cyclist produces 120 watts of power with their legs alone, a trained cyclist may push up to 160.

Therefore any current levels resulting less than 120 watts will probably not get the bike up to speed in any gearing. Also, different gearing will result in vastly different speeds at the same wattage. I believe this is what you are experiencing and it would definitely 'feel' like they are related, it had me convinced for a bit too. But I've done enough reading on regular cycling to know the wattage is critically entwined with gearing in relation to speed. You can prove this by raising the speed limit on any PAS setting without adjusting the current. If it works like mine the motor will continue to cut out at the same speeds while in the same gears regardless of the speed setting.

What is your general riding style? I'm a commuter in heavy traffic 95% of the time so I'm never worried about battery as much as keeping a steady pace lol. We don't have bike lanes here in most of the city so it's quite the adventure every day and definitely has influence on my PAS settings. If I did more casual riding my limits would be much closer to my casual riding speeds I think, but as is I can also use the current to regulate my speed by changing the amount of power applied at the pedals. Settings 4-5 on my list often don't hit 32 unless I'm really cranking it hard. They do apply a lot more power at 28km than setting 3 though.

 

[Gionnirocket]

This I can answer! The speed limit is definitely only the upper speed limit cut off and has nothing to do with power to the pedals.

Power to the pedals is defined as watts. Watts also equal amps times voltage. Applying more watts (and thus more current because the voltage is relatively stable) in any gear will increase your speed AND cadence. The average cyclist produces 120 watts of power with their legs alone, a trained cyclist may push up to 160.

Therefore any current levels resulting less than 120 watts will probably not get the bike up to speed in any gearing. Also, different gearing will result in vastly different speeds at the same wattage. I believe this is what you are experiencing and it would definitely 'feel' like they are related, it had me convinced for a bit too. But I've done enough reading on regular cycling to know the wattage is critically entwined with gearing in relation to speed. You can prove this by raising the speed limit on any PAS setting without adjusting the current. If it works like mine the motor will continue to cut out at the same speeds while in the same gears regardless of the speed setting.

What is your general riding style? I'm a commuter in heavy traffic 95% of the time so I'm never worried about battery as much as keeping a steady pace lol. We don't have bike lanes here in most of the city so it's quite the adventure every day and definitely has influence on my PAS settings. If I did more casual riding my limits would be much closer to my casual riding speeds I think, but as is I can also use the current to regulate my speed by changing the amount of power applied at the pedals. Settings 4-5 on my list often don't hit 32 unless I'm really cranking it hard. They do apply a lot more power at 28km than setting 3 though.

Well that's just it... Look at my PAS 4, 5 and 6. The current is the same for all 3 and there is only a small increase in the Speed setting. With each increasing PAS using the same gear, the motor cuts out at a faster speed... both cadence and resulting ground. So in my mind the motor speed/cadence limit has increased and when the new limit is reached it cuts out. Now couple that with the fact that when I pick any one PAS and go through all my gears I increase ground speed as I increase in gear. The current and motor speed are now static but with each gear increase, you will increase ground speed. How can this be if Ground Speed is determining the cut off?

Anywho... I've given up on fully understanding it and even more so on taking a mathematical or logical approach to PAS settings. I've found that what works best for me is to take mental notes of how each PAS increase feels in various situations and couple that with how I intend to use any particular PAS... Then tune the Current/Speed to do what I want and what feels natural as I go up the scale.
Me... I'm an exercise rider mostly on paved rail_trails with some occasional errand runs on city streets and some detours off into the woods on hard earth trails but usually at relatively low speeds. On the rail_trails I do bounce back and forth from riding aggressively at top speed on and off the pavement to puttering along and enjoying nature.
What I like most about using the BBS is that it allows me to maintain a desired cadence no matter heat, humidity, hills, wind or body aches.

Glad you're here to help crack the mysteries of the BBS with fresh eyes and no preconceived notions.