BBS** Settings/Pedal Assist/Stop Decay *Excellent Motor Refinement *

You take the same approach to PAS as Dave and quite different then me (my Settings) so maybe he can be of more help. And I'm not sure if having an older HD plays into this as well. I have a 2020 '02B
That said. . . If I was going to change anything I would probably try a Work Mode of Undetermined as that is typically the default and I haven't read anything about changing it with better results. Then I would probably try a Slow-start Mode of 4 or 5 as I've had no better results with anything else in my trials. And lastly if you are still looking to try something new I would try a higher Stop Decay. This setting doesn't seem to make changes in small increments so I would try jumps in 20. I went as high as 150 and am now settled at 100. YMMV
I read through every post before I posted. Yes you started out with a discussion of stop decay but put it in conjunction with low start mode as working better together. In the above quote you seem to indicate to start with the slow start mode instead of the stop decay.

I can play with both of them but would prefer separate to begin with. Which one first? The benefits you list are smoother operation, faster acceleration and better battery management but that is pretty subjective. I was hoping for a better description. What make you conclude those things. I am a touchy feely type of person that tunes into how the bike feels vs facts and figures. I have 12 e bikes out there that I program for others and all but mine is a BBSO2 and all are old folks.

I am looking for things like at what speed or point of acceleration do you see the greatest benefits. What subtleties made you settle on a stop decay of 95?
I am trying to learn from your research rather than recreate the same wheel. It saves a lot of time if you know what subtleties to tune into.

Now if I can see no benefits that does not mean that your findings are invalid. Ii might mean that they work great with your approach of high power and low speed limits. vs low power and higher speed limits like my approach to programing. It would be nice to document any limitations rather than one size fits all. I can also try these things on a BBSO2 bike with my normal settings. My settings work great for old folks so far but I am always looking for improvements. The e bike world moves too fast to close your mind.
 
Taking note of those changes, and judging them one at a time (or even as a group?) might work out well....

Bigger point is you need to be organized about it, or you aren't going anywhere. You are lost in a sea of changes, and the only way to progress is to go back to the way it was when you got it and start over again....
Dude I'm lost in the sea of life 🤣

Anyways as of right now I am pretty happy with my current settings. I have a smooth startup and even without stretching the stop decay. For me, it seems the important part was getting the start current and slow start parameters to engage my IGH without it sounding like the motor wants to tear the hub off the bike but still give me proper acceleration once that initial engagement is made.

Now if only I had more power 😈
 
Dude I'm lost in the sea of life 🤣

Anyways as of right now I am pretty happy with my current settings. I have a smooth startup and even without stretching the stop decay. For me, it seems the important part was getting the start current and slow start parameters to engage my IGH without it sounding like the motor wants to tear it off the bike but still give me proper acceleration once that initial engagement is made.

Now if only I had more power 😈
Well IMO, that's where the Stop Decay would be helpful and perhaps a better starting point as I made minor tweaks to the other two afterwards.
Seems a Slow Start of 3-6 is where most people are and 4-5 being the most popular and what has also worked best for me so you may want to start there.
Start Current is pretty easy and I would start low say around 5 and adjust after the other 2 settings are nailed down.
YMMV
 
I read through every post before I posted. Yes you started out with a discussion of stop decay but put it in conjunction with low start mode as working better together. In the above quote you seem to indicate to start with the slow start mode instead of the stop decay.

I can play with both of them but would prefer separate to begin with. Which one first? The benefits you list are smoother operation, faster acceleration and better battery management but that is pretty subjective. I was hoping for a better description. What make you conclude those things. I am a touchy feely type of person that tunes into how the bike feels vs facts and figures. I have 12 e bikes out there that I program for others and all but mine is a BBSO2 and all are old folks.

I am looking for things like at what speed or point of acceleration do you see the greatest benefits. What subtleties made you settle on a stop decay of 95?
I am trying to learn from your research rather than recreate the same wheel. It saves a lot of time if you know what subtleties to tune into.

Now if I can see no benefits that does not mean that your findings are invalid. Ii might mean that they work great with your approach of high power and low speed limits. vs low power and higher speed limits like my approach to programing. It would be nice to document any limitations rather than one size fits all. I can also try these things on a BBSO2 bike with my normal settings. My settings work great for old folks so far but I am always looking for improvements. The e bike world moves too fast to close your mind.

Ok... It seems that we may have a bit of confusion. 🙃

I said to start with Slow Start to address what you said was your only problem with your present settings. You say that you are satisfied with the present settings but that is also very subjective as I was very satisfied with my settings prior to stumbling across raising the Stop Decay. And not having the motor automatically start assisting on speed drop would not be acceptable to me... hence the recommendation to start with Slow Start and Work Mode.

As mentioned earlier in this post I too am attacking this by feel rather than numerical values that would seem to make sense or have some equal progression. I have no speed or points of acceleration to describe as it's a global effect. I do believe that I mentioned as you raise the setting the acceleration rate increases so landing at 100 is due to being where it felt most comfortable. As for battery use I've noted that on a typical 20mi ride on the same path my wh/mi has reduced slightly.. perhaps by 0.7 wh/mi but this is somewhat anecdotal as it can also fluctuate due to body strength and pains of the day.
I'm trying to put out as much information as I can and have repeatedly asked for collaboration as I realize this is something new and I'm only one example. All settings are very personal to each rider/bike and there are far too many variables to suggest that one size fits all. Whether or not anyone validates my experience is really of no consequence to me as I know that I'm very happy with my settings. I'm putting this out there to make others aware of it as an option as I felt it's prior believed function is misunderstood.
So I'm not trying to be defensive or argumentative but the only thing I can offer you is what I've already said... if you are interested, give it a try.
As mentioned earlier I didn't notice much until going above 40 and suggest jumps of 20 and to leave small changes of 5 or 10 for fine tuning at the end of your testing
 
Ok... It seems that we may have a bit of confusion. 🙃

I said to start with Slow Start to address what you said was your only problem with your present settings. You say that you are satisfied with the present settings but that is also very subjective as I was very satisfied with my settings prior to stumbling across raising the Stop Decay. And not having the motor automatically start assisting on speed drop would not be acceptable to me... hence the recommendation to start with Slow Start and Work Mode.
Fair enough. The reduction in slow start may have helped the problem. I did accelerate the bike above 25 mph then reduced the gearing and power level and pedaled softly as the bike fell below 20 mph. The power did come is a bit sooner. Time will tell. I will ride today.

As for the other. I will give it a try.
 
Dude I'm lost in the sea of life 🤣

Anyways as of right now I am pretty happy with my current settings. I have a smooth startup and even without stretching the stop decay. For me, it seems the important part was getting the start current and slow start parameters to engage my IGH without it sounding like the motor wants to tear the hub off the bike but still give me proper acceleration once that initial engagement is made.

Now if only I had more power 😈
Start current and slow start parameters are the biggest/most common issues people complain about regarding the factory Bafang programming. Seems like that is little changed with the new CAN BUS motors....
 
Fair enough. The reduction in slow start may have helped the problem. I did accelerate the bike above 25 mph then reduced the gearing and power level and pedaled softly as the bike fell below 20 mph. The power did come is a bit sooner. Time will tell. I will ride today.

As for the other. I will give it a try.
I'm not sure what setting would be causing that as in all my trials (and I've f*cked with all of them :- ) I don't believe I've ever experienced anywhere near that large of a differential. In all I believe it had to be less than 0.5mph as I've never noticed it or felt it to be an issue.
Possibly a setting combined with your PAS approach? I did try something similar about a year ago but I think it was for only about 2 weeks. I was never happy with it and perhaps didn't notice as the motor always assisting may have had me distracted. Most that take your approach use a PAS Speed setting of 100 and that's what I tried... so that can be the difference right there.
 
Start current and slow start parameters are the biggest/most common issues people complain about regarding the factory Bafang programming. Seems like that is little changed with the new CAN BUS motors....
I concur on the Start Current... isn't 4 the default for Slow Start?
 
Start current and slow start parameters are the biggest/most common issues people complain about regarding the factory Bafang programming. Seems like that is little changed with the new CAN BUS motors....
What seemed jerky but overall liveable when I had a 10speed derailleur is no longer suitable for the IGH. Dropping those start currents down to 1 on throttle and 5 for pedalling has greatly increased the smoothness of engagement.
 
I'm not sure what setting would be causing that as in all my trials (and I've f*cked with all of them :- ) I don't believe I've ever experienced anywhere near that large of a differential. In all I believe it had to be less than 0.5mph as I've never noticed it or felt it to be an issue.
Possibly a setting combined with your PAS approach? I did try something similar about a year ago but I think it was for only about 2 weeks. I was never happy with it and perhaps didn't notice as the motor always assisting may have had me distracted. Most that take your approach use a PAS Speed setting of 100 and that's what I tried... so that can be the difference right there.
Okay, being too subjective for proper analysis I decided to change more than one parameter.
I dropped the Start Current from 20 to 9, I dropped the Slow Start Mode from 7 to 4. I increased the Stop Decay from 0 to 95 and I increased the keep current from 85-90.

2016 BBSHD with original controller from Luna, 52 volt batteries at 52.4 volts to start. Full watt meter on bars. I did my normal ride of 22.8 miles with 904 ft of climbing. Steepest grade was 18% Highest speed reached was 32.2 mph average speed was 13.7 mph At least 5 miles was done at 20 mph. Fair amount of stop and go. Weight total was 300 lb 80 degrees F and little wind.

Power usage was 14.29 watt hours per mile. I would have expected 15-16.

Actual noted data: Power wattage variation was considerably less than before. Top power was less and power drop off was less.

Overall impression was that the power was considerably smoother in operation and speed was more consistent

I noticed no difference in acceleration

Power drop off problem before engagement was largely gone.

Overall I consider the changes to be old people friendly and very worth while.
 
Okay, being too subjective for proper analysis I decided to change more than one parameter.
I dropped the Start Current from 20 to 9, I dropped the Slow Start Mode from 7 to 4. I increased the Stop Decay from 0 to 95 and I increased the keep current from 85-90.

2016 BBSHD with original controller from Luna, 52 volt batteries at 52.4 volts to start. Full watt meter on bars. I did my normal ride of 22.8 miles with 904 ft of climbing. Steepest grade was 18% Highest speed reached was 32.2 mph average speed was 13.7 mph At least 5 miles was done at 20 mph. Fair amount of stop and go. Weight total was 300 lb 80 degrees F and little wind.

Power usage was 14.29 watt hours per mile. I would have expected 15-16.

Actual noted data: Power wattage variation was considerably less than before. Top power was less and power drop off was less.

Overall impression was that the power was considerably smoother in operation and speed was more consistent

I noticed no difference in acceleration

Power drop off problem before engagement was largely gone.

Overall I consider the changes to be old people friendly and very worth while.
Thanks for a more technical comparison.
I thought to use the Eggrider display to graph a few rides to try and visually demonstrate if there are any noticeable difference in how power is applied along with voltage drop and wh/mi used.... but honestly I'm in a state of mind where at least for the time being I just want to ride and enjoy myself. That and I find the Eggrider a very annoying display to use, even if only temporarily.
Can't say that I'm not happy to see that increasing the Stop Decay not only shows some value with the BBSHD but also with your "low power and higher speed" approach to PAS

Again it looks like open minds prevail and you didn't ride off the end of a flat earth.
 
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Just wanted to make a quick update, adjusted my PAS settings as @Gionnirocket suggested since I do not use the higher PAS levels as much. Made 1-3 more usable and 4 and 5 for more spirted riding. Adjusted Startup degree from 4 back to 20 but will likely go back down to 4, think it is causing to much delay switching the motor on/off. Think Frey suggested 2 so might try that.

@AHicks mentioned that even PAS numbers were likely Sport so set one of them to zero percent current to prove that out and it shut power down on that one selection. So I went ahead and adjusted my even numbers to 5% higher than the odds. Think Sport changes the power curve some or like Frey mentioned that ECO some settings are hard coded and not adjustable.

from AHicks - It (Ultra) comes with Eco mode = 5 speeds, and "sport mode" with another 5 speeds. PAS levels are numbered 0-9 in the programming. Eco (green) mode uses 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. Sport (red) uses 2, 4, 6, 8, and 9.

ECO feels really strange like it is going back to default settings in Torque settings tab and not using anything programmed. Was a huge difference going from Sport back to ECO (only 5% current change). ECO did not have that nice 400 watt spread by just changing pedal pressure. AHicks you said you ride in ECO a lot you may not be using the Torque Frey settings when in ECO (or not completely), they said at lower pedal pressure but I was not experiencing that at all.

from Frey : When testing this tune, make sure to test it in SPORT mode, not ECO. Eco mode have hard programmed function of disabling pedal assist at low pedal pressure, this cannot be overwritten. Tune below is focused on refining SPORT mode.
 

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Possibly explaining the difference in our results, I didn't care for the standard display, preferring instead the 750C (horizontal layout with easier to read watt meter), which does not use the Sport and Eco PAS distinction. It offers just the 5 PAS levels, or 6 if you want to include PAS 0. I don't remember for sure, but 3 PAS levels may also be an option with it.

I have read in several places (Hacker's guide for sure) the Eco vs. Sport odd/even PAS numbers but never messed with it at all. It is possible that there is some hard coding that the earlier programmers (Hacker's guide/Biktrix) didn't notice/know about. It's also possible that hard coding was done on a newer runs of motors, a change made since they did all of their work.

Another possibility is that this "hard coding" could be held in the display and not the controller......

With @Calicoskies experience as noted above, I have little reason to doubt what he's seeing is true, as well as Frey's comments regarding the hard coding. Clearly something is going on there.


To prevent any more confusion/incorrect statements, in the future, I'll stop commenting on the Eco vs Sport until I know more, or what's going on here becomes clearer. I have as much dislike for bad information as anyone.... -Al
 
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Okay, being too subjective for proper analysis I decided to change more than one parameter.
I dropped the Start Current from 20 to 9, I dropped the Slow Start Mode from 7 to 4. I increased the Stop Decay from 0 to 95 and I increased the keep current from 85-90.

2016 BBSHD with original controller from Luna, 52 volt batteries at 52.4 volts to start. Full watt meter on bars. I did my normal ride of 22.8 miles with 904 ft of climbing. Steepest grade was 18% Highest speed reached was 32.2 mph average speed was 13.7 mph At least 5 miles was done at 20 mph. Fair amount of stop and go. Weight total was 300 lb 80 degrees F and little wind.

Power usage was 14.29 watt hours per mile. I would have expected 15-16.

Actual noted data: Power wattage variation was considerably less than before. Top power was less and power drop off was less.

Overall impression was that the power was considerably smoother in operation and speed was more consistent

I noticed no difference in acceleration

Power drop off problem before engagement was largely gone.

Overall I consider the changes to be old people friendly and very worth while.
Okay, more of an update after running the new settings for nearly 800 miles. First off I did not like the reduction in start current and went back to 20% from 5%. My bike is just too heavy to benefit.
Acceleration is lower but considerably smoother. It's not to the point that I will scrap the new settings as I like more than I lost.
Best benefit is much more steady on the power. I am noticing a gain of about 8-10% on useable Watt hours from the battery pack. I have slowed down a bit but not enough to explain the savings.
My setup may be yielding some answers and I hope that I am not just grabbing at straws. My meter reads out continuously in watts battery draw and voltage. It also reads out in total watt hours and amp hours.
I have a big battery pack, so most of the time my battery sag is residual at 1-2 volts. I have always been puzzled by the fact that when I divide the watt hours by the amp hours I get a voltage number below anything that I have witnessed on the meter. Prior to the changes I would calculate actual sag numbers of around 3-3.2 volts. about a full volt less than I observed on the meter. Todays ride was 890 watt hours divided by 16.7 amp hours = 53.3 volts. I started with 58 volts and am down to 54 volts. The average would be 56 volts. That is an actual sag of 2.7 volts.
I am observing watts continuous as far less variation and calculating lower sag numbers. I am concluding that the changes have reduced voltage spikes that my meter is too slow to show but it is showing up as steadier wattage output.
My meter is great for having an idea of how much battery I have left and observing the voltage sag gives me an idea if all four batteries are on line or one or two and not properly connected. I don't want an off line battery with higher voltage to jiggle and suddenly come on line. Just part of what you have to do when running a poor mans parallel battery system.
 
Okay, more of an update after running the new settings for nearly 800 miles. First off I did not like the reduction in start current and went back to 20% from 5%. My bike is just too heavy to benefit.
Acceleration is lower but considerably smoother. It's not to the point that I will scrap the new settings as I like more than I lost.
Best benefit is much more steady on the power. I am noticing a gain of about 8-10% on useable Watt hours from the battery pack. I have slowed down a bit but not enough to explain the savings.
My setup may be yielding some answers and I hope that I am not just grabbing at straws. My meter reads out continuously in watts battery draw and voltage. It also reads out in total watt hours and amp hours.
I have a big battery pack, so most of the time my battery sag is residual at 1-2 volts. I have always been puzzled by the fact that when I divide the watt hours by the amp hours I get a voltage number below anything that I have witnessed on the meter. Prior to the changes I would calculate actual sag numbers of around 3-3.2 volts. about a full volt less than I observed on the meter. Todays ride was 890 watt hours divided by 16.7 amp hours = 53.3 volts. I started with 58 volts and am down to 54 volts. The average would be 56 volts. That is an actual sag of 2.7 volts.
I am observing watts continuous as far less variation and calculating lower sag numbers. I am concluding that the changes have reduced voltage spikes that my meter is too slow to show but it is showing up as steadier wattage output.
My meter is great for having an idea of how much battery I have left and observing the voltage sag gives me an idea if all four batteries are on line or one or two and not properly connected. I don't want an off line battery with higher voltage to jiggle and suddenly come on line. Just part of what you have to do when running a poor mans parallel battery system.
I agree that that these settings do have a few points I find lacking at times compared to previous... But I have yet to find a solution that is perfect in all my riding situations. But as you say, I feel the benefits of this set seem to far outway the cons.
In regards to acceleration, I have a few ways of handling this. On the few occasions I find it lacking during a ride, a quick tap 1 up the PAS scale usually takes care of my needs. 2 up and I better be paying attention. I've gotten so use to Up/Down shifting my PAS that I do it second nature now. My terrain is constantly changing and I'm always ready to adapt if I want to stay fluid. I think it adds a layer of enjoyment to the ride as down shifting into a tight turn does while driving. Keep in mind I'm using a incremental Speed increase in PAS levels not Current.
Some other observations are... If I continue pedaling as I Up PAS it accelerates more aggressively than if I pause a split second. This gives me two ways of implementing a PAS change.
To me the benefits of smoothness and efficiency are well worth these minor steps.. especially since they have a simple work around and I feel it's impossible to get it to do exactly what I want in all situations without my input no matter the settings. At a certain point you need to know how to manipulate a machine as it's reactions to input are pretty much static.

Curious... Do you plan on implementing a higher Stop Decay with the other bikes you manage?
If you have already, what was the consensus?

As to the Ultra guys...
No offense but I don't feel that your comments here are helpful as your not using a BBS, not using an elevated Stop Decay, most don't have Sport or Eco modes and anyone that might benefit from your experiences will probably never see your comments 🙃 YMMV

@voidedwarranty ...where did you end up with your settings?
 
@voidedwarranty ...where did you end up with your settings?
Start current for both PAS and throttle are at 1%

This is the recommendation in the hacker's guide for use on IGH bikes and I totally get it. Engagement is very smooth. So smooth that combined with the gear shift sensor I don't have to stop pedalling anymore to shift up gears.

Because my start current is so low I bumped the slow-start up to 7 which has given a good overall acceleration. Basically it engages the IGH gently then pulls strong.

Stop Decay is back at 25. For whatever the reason my bike does not like the higher stop decay and have found that since making that change I no longer get the motor drop off mid- corner when I get back on the pedals. I can't explain it, I don't know why, but this is the observable results of that change.

Only other change I have kept thus far is bumped my keep current from 80 to 90. This gives me the tiny extra power I need to keep my momentum in PAS1 and top gear because I am right on the border of the motor speed cadence limit for PAS1 (44%). I tried moving that a bit higher to 50% but something started feeling jerky again during pedal engagement so I had to dial it back to 44. Did the math, 44% of roughly 150 max rpm is 66rpm pedal cadence.

(I used a cadence calculator with my bike's setup to determine max motor rpm and found it is roughly 150rpm. Confirmed by topping out in 1st gear, then using my gearing and that speed to find the max rpm. This is a good way to understand exactly what cadence you set each PAS level to)

I think I will be leaving my settings alone for a while. I am very happy with the current feel of the bike and the engagement of my IGH.
 
Start current for both PAS and throttle are at 1%

This is the recommendation in the hacker's guide for use on IGH bikes and I totally get it. Engagement is very smooth. So smooth that combined with the gear shift sensor I don't have to stop pedalling anymore to shift up gears.

Because my start current is so low I bumped the slow-start up to 7 which has given a good overall acceleration. Basically it engages the IGH gently then pulls strong.

Stop Decay is back at 25. For whatever the reason my bike does not like the higher stop decay and have found that since making that change I no longer get the motor drop off mid- corner when I get back on the pedals. I can't explain it, I don't know why, but this is the observable results of that change.

Only other change I have kept thus far is bumped my keep current from 80 to 90. This gives me the tiny extra power I need to keep my momentum in PAS1 and top gear because I am right on the border of the motor speed cadence limit for PAS1 (44%). I tried moving that a bit higher to 50% but something started feeling jerky again during pedal engagement so I had to dial it back to 44. Did the math, 44% of roughly 150 max rpm is 66rpm pedal cadence.

(I used a cadence calculator with my bike's setup to determine max motor rpm and found it is roughly 150rpm. Confirmed by topping out in 1st gear, then using my gearing and that speed to find the max rpm. This is a good way to understand exactly what cadence you set each PAS level to)

I think I will be leaving my settings alone for a while. I am very happy with the current feel of the bike and the engagement of my IGH.
Perfect example of why everyone should personalize their settings and not just install someone else's special sauce.
Glad you found a happy spot
Ride on!
 
Perfect example of why everyone should personalize their settings and not just install someone else's special sauce.
Glad you found a happy spot
Ride on!
Couldn't agree more. Being that most of my settings have to be hinged around my rear hub, it really changes the whole philosophy of how the motor needs to work in order to play nice with my drivetrain, while also getting what I want out of it.

Fine-tuning the programming is so important. A decent amount of our settings are so different, yet we both end up with smooth engagements for our given applications.
 
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