Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

[onlineaddy]

Who's right?

I would suggest try both and decide for yourself which you prefer.

 

[MartsEbike]

I don't think the "smooth" settings come from Frey. I'm pretty sure this is just a blog started by someone that happened to buy a Frey EX bike, and have shared their knowledge.

 

[smorgasbord]

I would suggest try both and decide for yourself which you prefer.

It's not a preference question, it's a question of which "author" is right. My summation is that there's a lot of nonsense floating about with regards to Bafang programming. Whether Karl or Roshan or Michael, there's a whole bunch of not only nonsense explanations, but also contradictory statements.
And yes, Roshan/Biktrix is obviously wrong that "Current Mode makes your Throttle act as a Full Power ON/OFF Switch" (I tried it), so the question then becomes how much of what else is written on that page can be trusted to be accurate?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Who's right?

Frey

 

[Gionnirocket]

If you go to that article posted above, you can see the latest "before"/factory Ultra settings in the early part of the article. Then, towards the end of the article, they show the "Smooth" settings I used, literally line for line. The only exception being on the 1st/basic page where I programmed the PAS 0 to be a functional PAS level.

Really noteworthy is the talk about the torque curve used for the torque sensing. The settings they use are WAY different than those supplied/suggested by others for the entire torque sensing page, but especially notable is that top section where they set up a progressive voltage range vs. the factory and most others relatively flat settings. My bet is that is a significant factor in how well this works. -Al

I did incorporate some Frey Smooth Page 2 into my BBS02B settings and I noticed some improvement.
Most notably Current Decay from 8 to 6 and Stop Decay up from 0 to 10. This coupled with the Keep Current that I already had at 90 I think is what made the difference. I had tried changing the first two independently a long time ago when my Keep Current was the standard 60 and the results we not the same.
And this is why I keep beating that dead horse. These settings all interact and trying to change just one and seeing the difference is just pissing in the wind. There's something going on in the background and without a manufacturer explanation of interaction we're all just guessing.
Mike, if from Frey... I'm wondering since both are a Chinese companies has a Bafang connection or was at least able to translate the Chinese information with more of an understanding.
Before the changes I was very happy with what I came up with... Now it has some icing on it and I'm done experimenting and just gonna ride.
Nice find @AHicks!

 

[AHicks]

It's not a preference question, it's a question of which "author" is right. My summation is that there's a lot of nonsense floating about with regards to Bafang programming. Whether Karl or Roshan or Michael, there's a whole bunch of not only nonsense explanations, but also contradictory statements.
And yes, Roshan/Biktrix is obviously wrong that "Current Mode makes your Throttle act as a Full Power ON/OFF Switch" (I tried it), so the question then becomes how much of what else is written on that page can be trusted to be accurate?

I'm not an electrical engineer, or rocket scientist, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I found early on there was a bunch of stuff labeled "my favorite" with very little explanation. Then it became clear these guys had way different motivations behind their thoughts. Some guys are running huge power. Some are running road, others are running MX. That's when I found it was more about their notes than it was about their settings. The thought behind what their settings ended up being was worth more than their settings. And sure, there's some conflicting thoughts, just like many different topics here on EBR.

Regarding the who's right question, I'm not into finger pointing, only what works. If you take the few minutes required to load the Smooth settings and try them, I think the answer to some of your question will be clear.

As far as the "delta" voltage, I have no idea what the definition of delta voltage is, but I did check out the chart supplied in that article for it's effect, and after studying it for a few minutes, came away with a much clearer idea of the objective....

Then, there is this:
"As you can see, rider torque/load applied to pedals is inversely progressive. We put out four times more load on pedals at stand still (body weight) compared to max RPM. Therefore to utilise entire range of motor assist power, we need to reduce the working range (Kg) as RPM increase. Failure to do so, will just mean that rider cannot access majority of Pedal Assistance at maximum RPM as full (Kg) cannot be applied to pedals."

Best of luck! -Al

 

[onlineaddy]

Thanks for the clear-headed and helpful response, @AHicks.

 

[smorgasbord]

As far as the "delta" voltage, I have no idea what the definition of delta voltage is, but I did check out the chart supplied in that article for it's effect, and after studying it for a few minutes, came away with a much clearer idea of the objective....

What chart related to its effect?

Then, there is this:
"As you can see, rider torque/load applied to pedals is inversely progressive. We put out four times more load on pedals at stand still (body weight) compared to max RPM. Therefore to utilise entire range of motor assist power, we need to reduce the working range (Kg) as RPM increase. Failure to do so, will just mean that rider cannot access majority of Pedal Assistance at maximum RPM as full (Kg) cannot be applied to pedals."

Yeah, the only chart I see is the one comparing the torque and power outputs of two different riders. It has nothing to do with the motor's output.
And yes, we can apply more torque at lower rpms than at higher rpms, but max power come out at higher rpms. I'm not sure the data showing Peak Power at 110-120 rpms is correct though. Read this article or this article for more data suggesting sub 90rpm's. And this article suggests that it depends on whether you're doing a short Time Trial or an Ironman long distance ride.

At any rate, I'll just note there that ALL the proposed Torque Tab settings, including Bafang's default, have the "working range (Kg)" decrease as the crank rpms increase. Here's a comparison chart showing input range (in Kg) and corresponding motor output range (in Current %):

	Bafang Stock	Luna "Ludicrous" Stock	"Smooth"
Spd 0 Start/Full(Kg) -> Min/Max(%)	20/50 ->10/100	25/50 -> 10/100	1/60 -> 5/100
Spd 20 Start/Full(Kg) -> Min/Max(%)	16/45 -> 10/100	20/45 -> 10/100	1/50 -> 5/100
Spd 40 Start/Full(Kg) -> Min/Max(%)	12/40 -> 15/100	12/40 -> 15/100	1/40 -> 5/100
Spd 60 Start/Full(Kg) -> Min/Max(%)	10/35 -> 15/100	10/35 -> 15/100	1/30 -> 5/100
Spd 80 Start/Full(Kg) -> Mix/Max(%)	8/30 -> 10/100	8/30 -> 10/100	1/20 -> 5/100
Spd 100 Start/Full(Kg) -> Mix/Max(%)	6/25 -> 10/100	6/25 -> 10/100	1/15 -> 5/100

Note that all the variants have the Max Current at 100%, which means you can get full power of the motor out at any cadence if you press on the pedals with at least Full(Kg). At low rpms, stock/Luna will need 50Kg to produce max, while the Smooth will need 60Kg. For Spd40, the Full/Max combo is identical across the board. At higher rpms, the Smooth setting needs less torque to get to max output.
The "Smooth" settings ramp up current starting at 5%, versus 10%or 15% for the others, but since the Smooth settings also start at 1Kg instead of 6Kg-25Kg the real difference is mostly when you're hardly pushing on the pedals (low Kg). It's probably unknown what kind of ramping Bafang uses internally (linear or some curve), but I suspect the differences at reasonable achievable pedal pressures are minimal.

Which still leaves me trying to under "Delta Voltage." Note that eBikeaholic says to not mess with Delta Voltage. Luna hasn't messed with it, either. Only "Smooth" has messed with it, but I haven't found a reasonable explanation for what this does. So, when you say "The thought behind what their settings ended up being was worth more than their settings," I'm confused because no-one has clearly expressed what Delta Voltage is, much less what the thoughts behind the settings are.

 

[smorgasbord]

I did incorporate some Frey Smooth Page 2 into my BBS02B settings and I noticed some improvement.

I don't think there's nearly as much confusion over the 3 shared tabs between Ultra and BBS02B settings as there is on the unique-to-Ultra Torque tab. Considering the title of this thread and the many other threads on BBS02's, I'd like to keep this dedicated to Ultra.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I don't think there's nearly as much confusion over the 3 shared tabs between Ultra and BBS02B settings as there is on the unique-to-Ultra Torque tab. Considering the title of this thread and the many other threads on BBS02's, I'd like to keep this dedicated to Ultra.

I can't make any promises... But I'll see what I can do
And you can blame Mr. @AHicks as in his other thread, Bafang Ultra (and BBSxx) Tuning I mentioned to him more than once that I feel that the Ultra is a different animal and he's just not having it

 

[AHicks]

I don't think there's nearly as much confusion over the 3 shared tabs between Ultra and BBS02B settings as there is on the unique-to-Ultra Torque tab. Considering the title of this thread and the many other threads on BBS02's, I'd like to keep this dedicated to Ultra.

We're talking about the same chart. From there, I can tell you that my earlier set ups used logic similar to what you seem to be thinking. Having an open mind on the topic, and knowing full well there are people that know a lot more than I do on the subject, I decided to give the Smooth set up a try, and I'm glad I did. It behaves TOTALLY different than anything I had done previously - a GOOD thing! It works SO well, and the setup is SO different, it kinda tells ME that some of the earlier thinking was WAY off........ This setup works, plain and simple.

I would encourage you to at least try it. Then things may appear to be much clearer. If you don't want to try it, that's you privilege. I don't feel qualified to argue it's merits any further. -Al

 

[smorgasbord]

I would encourage you to at least try it. Then things may appear to be much clearer.

I have tried it, and things aren't clearer. Maybe I'm dense. At times I felt I was having to pedal harder than before, but at the end of the ride I consumed more battery than I did previously on the same ride (and more than my wife on the Luna-stock settings - she has the same Apollo I do).

I did re-re-reread Michael's page, the final time top to bottom without skipping. Turns out he tries to explain Delta Voltage earlier in the page, before the "Smooth" settings section:

This is voltage SPAN in millivolts that program use to calculate load applied to pedals. For example, for the first 200mV load cell output, program will calculate as 0-5Kg load. If you are to change 200mV to 400mV, software will now calculate load of 0-5Kg over first 400mV. This is good instrument to manipulate sensitivity of the pedal assist. From linear to progressive or any other.

While clear in terms of English, I still don't understand it.
And if doing a ramp is preferable, why the 900-500-300-200-200-200-100-100 psuedo-ramp instead of something that doesn't replicate values?

Finally, a note about Luna's settings. Luna sells the Apollo and Apex as off-road single-track capable eBikes. They outfit them with off-road tires. So, I suspect Luna's settings may be geared for the more power needed at slower-speed and more abrupt changes in terrain than if you were programming for mostly on-road.

 

[AHicks]

Yup, I think I know what you're talking about. "At times I felt I was having to pedal harder than before,".
I've experienced that as well. It seems like you can back off the pressure a bit and there's more power available than when pushing hard? Have you tried dropping a gear and slowing a bit under that condition? Changing to the next higher PAS levels?

I don't have a lot of time on this setup, maybe a week, and then it was time to do my snowbird thing, leaving the bike behind. What I found is that each PAS level had about a 400w range from top to bottom. When you get to the top of that range you need to go to the next higher PAS level. If you try to extend that 400w range too high, you get into that situation where you have to work to hard....

There's a ton of overlap from one PAS level to the next, going up or down. Confused the heck out of me at first, then the pieces started coming together. It IS different!

The area I ride with this bike is pretty hilly - a lot of coastal rolling hills. I found that riding in the center of this 400w "band" available for each PAS level, saved me at least half of the constant PAS level changes I was making prior to the Smooth setup. Mine now stays in PAS 2 the majority of the time, with just occasional trips to PAS 3 for a big hill.

Not going to deny the point regarding the fact the Smooth setup may not be best under all conditions. All I can say for sure is it was a dramatic change for the better for me, my type of riding, and the conditions I ride in. -Al

 

[smorgasbord]

So, FWIW, I just discovered that I've been running my bike in "Eco" mode. I've been using the EggRider and by default it calls the settings "Road" and "OffRoad." When I changed to the EggRider alternate labels, Road became Eco and OffRoad became Sport. So, I've reprogrammed my Ultra under Sport (Torque page stayed the same) and I'll try it out tomorrow.

I point this out because Mike's "Smooth" setting page says:

When testing this tune, make sure to test it in SPORT mode, not ECO. Eco mode have hard programmed function of disabling pedal assist at low pedal pressure, this cannot be overwritten.

 

[AHicks]

Unhappy with the display that came with it (DHC18?) I switched to a 750C and am only using 5 PAS levels. Or actually 6 if you count PAS 0, which I programed similar to PAS 1 only lower.

Anyway for 5 levels of PAS they use 1,3,5,7, and 9 as shown on the 1st page.

 

[smorgasbord]

I have PAS 0 set for (1,1), which enables throttle but no pedal assist.
I've really bonded with my EggRider. Running full 9 levels. I like using my smart phone as my main display, as I'm already using it for RideWithGPS app for directions/tracking.

 

[AHicks]

Old man here. No need (or desire) for a smart phone....

 

[ace5000]

Can these setting be used on A BBS02B 750? I like smooth!

 

[Gionnirocket]

Can these setting be used on A BBS02B 750? I like smooth!

Yes...
I have my own settings on Page 1 as I don't agree with the 100% setting for Speed in all 9 PAS but both approaches do work.
My Page 2 and 3 settings are very close and work well.

 

[ace5000]

Yes...
I have my own settings on Page 1 as I don't agree with the 100% setting for Speed in all 9 PAS but both approaches do work.
My Page 2 and 3 settings are very close and work well.

Ok I was confused as I thought you refined them from page 1. Thanks.