Are throttles the devil?

I probably was a little harsh with the bashing tag but there is definitely a veiled intolerance of throttles, not just here but it seems throughout the different boards I have followed wherever e bikes are mentioned. Statements like " If you need a throttle, buy a motorbike" and "With proper pedal assist you don't need a throttle" along with many stating that although they have throttles they don't use them as if it was some kind of badge of courage.

It is totally verboten in the EU to have a throttle and over the course of the last 7 or so years the manufacturers have gone to great measures to refine PAS and have done a great job btw as it is better now than ever. There are many different ways to skin that cat though and it seems like at this point quantifying what is proper pedal assist and if one system is going to rule them all. I know, cadence vs torque etc. but here in the U.S. there were no laws on the books distinguishing between PAS and throttle until the CA laws were adopted, which were heavily lobbied by the EU manufacturers as a btw. It is odd to me that PAS and throttle are in two different classes yet the same statutes apply to each. Class III aside of course.

Pedal assist is a valid system but it won't be optimum for everyone, not that a throttle will either. But they both separately, or working in congress expand the choices available so that anyone can find what works best for their needs. Cost is always a factor in making decisions and a simple throttle and cadence sensor is the cheapest way to go and will suffice for many. Torque sensing systems can add substantially to the cost but if they provide the performance you are after will be worth it. But even just using a throttle alone can be an option for some.

Personally I gave up my motorcycle in favor of my e bikes. I found I got bored just "going for a ride" on my moto and as a long time cyclist decided that although I would be going much slower, adding my preferred pedaling structure to the equation I could achieve a sort of bicycleized motorcycle. But the best way I found to get a good mix of the two was by using a throttle. I don't get bored anymore and get in good workout to boot. And yes, I have ridden "proper" PAS systems.
 
Hi! I vist a half dozen spots and honestly have never heard many comments at all about throttles, except my EU friends looking for workarounds to having stealth throttles. The only people I've heard ANY comment from were also eBike haters. I seldom use my throttle but I use maximum assist most of the time. Being disabled I can't pump the pedals, but I can spin them and I get at least that much movement. More than once I've gone to far and throttled home. I just have learned to pay no attention. When I rode Vespa scooter (250CC) I intend to the asshats that said "get a real bike(motorcycle). There's always someone. In all my groups, here, Facebook, Endless_Sphere.com, no on DARES start the complaint. That's why I was surprised. I honestly have never seen the discussion in an eBike forum. I gave up on MTB forums even though I and a paying member of the Mountain Bike Assoc. I keep it up to support the local MTB club at the high school here. But this guys are near impossible to talk to about eBikes, so I don't bother. I like my eBikes best because of the low skill and I always have 4 running and can invite guests. LOTS more fun than the MC and scooter days. They grumps lose. We get to ride in places they'll never see without a bike. I'll never look back and miss the smell or the noise.
 
JRA said:
I probably was a little harsh with the bashing tag but there is definitely a veiled intolerance of throttles, not just here but it seems throughout the different boards I have followed wherever e bikes are mentioned. Statements like " If you need a throttle, buy a motorbike" and "With proper pedal assist you don't need a throttle" along with many stating that although they have throttles they don't use them as if it was some kind of badge of courage.

It is totally verboten in the EU to have a throttle and over the course of the last 7 or so years the manufacturers have gone to great measures to refine PAS and have done a great job btw as it is better now than ever. There are many different ways to skin that cat though and it seems like at this point quantifying what is proper pedal assist and if one system is going to rule them all. I know, cadence vs torque etc. but here in the U.S. there were no laws on the books distinguishing between PAS and throttle until the CA laws were adopted, which were heavily lobbied by the EU manufacturers as a btw. It is odd to me that PAS and throttle are in two different classes yet the same statutes apply to each. Class III aside of course.

Pedal assist is a valid system but it won't be optimum for everyone, not that a throttle will either. But they both separately, or working in congress expand the choices available so that anyone can find what works best for their needs. Cost is always a factor in making decisions and a simple throttle and cadence sensor is the cheapest way to go and will suffice for many. Torque sensing systems can add substantially to the cost but if they provide the performance you are after will be worth it. But even just using a throttle alone can be an option for some.

Personally I gave up my motorcycle in favor of my e bikes. I found I got bored just "going for a ride" on my moto and as a long time cyclist decided that although I would be going much slower, adding my preferred pedaling structure to the equation I could achieve a sort of bicycleized motorcycle. But the best way I found to get a good mix of the two was by using a throttle. I don't get bored anymore and get in good workout to boot. And yes, I have ridden "proper" PAS systems.
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I agree 110%
 
JRA said:
It is odd to me that PAS and throttle are in two different classes yet the same statutes apply to each. Class III aside of course.
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It's so the manufacturers could push for PAS only on mountain bike trails, they think that there's less resistance to PAS than throttles.
 
There likely would be less resistance from trail authorities without throttles. Most throttle wanters- myself included, want them for road biking- to start moving or in my case- to continue moving at 20mph while resting. If mountain biking history is correct- fighting for trail access formally only granted to hikers and horses, easy to understand their resistance to ebikes, regardless of how power is applied.
A mountain biker wanting a throttle needs an engine, not a motor. The access may be less, but the thrill and fun factor is multiplied many times over imo. For exercise- same thing- maintaining some speed on a dirt bike gives every bit as much workout as bicycle- prolly more- imo.
California laws only screwed those selling and using 28mph bikes. A speed limit on bike and pedestrian pathways would have been far more enforceable and bike paths I've been on have posted speed limits anyway.
 
Nutella said:
It's so the manufacturers could push for PAS only on mountain bike trails, they think that there's less resistance to PAS than throttles.
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The joker in the deck are the over-watted bikes that can be made, and have been for years now, where PAS does not function well and so most are throttled. But by over watting alone they are illegal to operate on anything other than private terrain or those allowing motorized to begin with. In the end common sense is the only common denominator that we have with all forms of motorized transportation and the rules that govern them. Having ridden motor assist bicycles for 17+ years now, both ICE and e with throttle only, I have yet to run in to anything other than curiosity for the concept of motor assist because I ride responsibly even though I use a throttle.
 
Like most legislation, I think it's so assurances can be made and backs patted all around at how sensible they all are in keeping us and the environment safe. We all know that most ebikes will never be checked out.
 
throttle ≠ motorbike, that argument is ridiculous. throttle is just another form of input to modulate the performance of your bike, you can have a throttle and you can have great PAS. people who make arguments about throttles are idiots.
 
Nutella said:
Like most legislation, I think it's so assurances can be made and backs patted all around at how sensible they all are in keeping us and the environment safe. We all know that most ebikes will never be checked out.
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Agree, but many of us carry around a "worse case scenario" thing. "What if I run over some kid on bike path when I'm on my st2"? No problem on st1.
Fortunately, those odds are long shot enough, I ride the bike paths on st2 without a thought. Getting a ticket for it is even more remote.
 
memberseven said:
throttle ≠ motorbike, that argument is ridiculous. throttle is just another form of input to modulate the performance of your bike, you can have a throttle and you can have great PAS. people who make arguments about throttles are idiots.
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The problem is that bikes are showing up with motorcycle rims and tires with 4-8Kw motors. Aggressive tread tires and they weigh in over 100lbs with huge battery packs. Essentially motorcycles with pedals. Mountain bike clubs spend many years and thousands of their hours and dollars developing BICYCLE trails. Suddenly 30-45MPH heavy bikes show up and start tearing up trails they have maintained, paid for and built. FAIR?
If riders want more respect, join the clubs, form your own club, but suddenly jumping in and declaring you have the mission and the right will only alienate and create derision.

Look at sites started by one of the major resellers. For FAST ELECTRIC BIKES ONLY. Anyone not interested or asking "stupid" questions will be banned. This is for real! These guys are ONLY interested in 40MPH plus bikes. They feel they have the right to ride where and when they want.

People taking Walmart frames and building 40MPH bikes. If history repeats, these guys will eventually have a disaster and we'll get regulations. Maybe that won't be so bad or maybe we'll get more than we want in some places. States can be very different. Lot's of state uses consider California the Left Coast and not a good model. Politics could ruin the industry. Don't take this as a vote against throttles, but I do think there needs to be some classifications of eBikes. I have no problem with licensing and skills testing like I needed to do with scooters and motorcycles.
 
fxr3 said:
Agree, but many of us carry around a "worse case scenario" thing. "What if I run over some kid on bike path when I'm on my st2"? No problem on st1.
Fortunately, those odds are long shot enough, I ride the bike paths on st2 without a thought. Getting a ticket for it is even more remote.
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fxr3 said:
many of us carry around a "worse case scenario" thing
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That's what makes laws work in the US, otherwise you'd need a cop on every street corner. As it is too many disregard "worse case", that tends to fill the jails and leaves victims in the wake. Willfully riding an ebike too powerful by law on a bike path and having an "accident" that seriously hurts someone, let alone a kid, changes the legal charge from civil to criminal.
 
I ride a regular bike and my wife rides a PAS Haibike. I really like ebikes and will buy one for myself at some point. I do think that, in general, people that go from riding a regular bike to an ebike tend to favor PAS bikes since pedaling is what they are used to and what seems normal while riding a bike. Bikes with throttles, particular those that can exceed 20 mph really are different from regular bikes or speed limited PAS bikes. Obviously, a regular bike or PAS bike can exceed 20 mph, but the rider or gravity has to provide the ability to do so. In my many years of riding, I've found very few recreational riders (other than those in a paceline) who can exceed 20 mph for any substantial distance other than down a big hill.

I don't think there is anything wrong with throttles. They are particularly useful for folks that need them or who are unfamiliar with the shifting required on a PAS bike, but I'm not surprised that bikes with throttles (or a speed limiter of 28 mph) are placed in a separate legal classification in some jurisdictions.

My guess is that the California classification system is likely to be adopted nationally over the next 10 years or so as ebikes become more prevalent. And think that is a good thing for all stakeholders in cycling world, whether they use an ebike or not, from a safety point of view.

In my opinion, to claim that a throttle equipped bike that can exceed 25 or 30 mph, should be treated the same as regular bike or a speed limited PAS bike on anything other than a public street ignores the reality that while public streets are built for higher speed traffic, MUP, bike trails, single track, etc are simply not. Having someone whizz by a walker, a little kid on a bike or another cyclist at 30 mph on a bike path is, in my opinion, simply unsafe. A throttle makes it easier maintain higher speeds for longer distances, which is the essence of the safety issue.
 
Pmac, well stated.

I do think a throttle changes the dynamics of the riding experience - where class 1 is just like riding a bicycle with many of its limitations (requires human power, inability to sustain excessive speeds) but it lessens one's disability by reducing excessive effort in certain demanding situations (uphill), while class 2 can allow it to act more like a motorized scooter, with little input from the user and the ability to stay at higher speeds than pedalers for longer periods of time.

Still, neither one, when limited to reasonable off road speeds that a well trained athlete could maintain, is any more dangerous than that 160lb in-shape athlete on a 25lb unassisted bike. Without throttle my 250 watt Trek Powerfly 7 mid drive with torque sensing PAS still requires me to input substantial pedal effort on steeper climbs, so I believe that most class 1 could not be flying up the trail at 20mph and endangering people.

Maybe it might be a different story with a higher power throttle controlled eMtn bike, because if it can achieve max power without pedaling while my bike requires max pedal effort for max power output, then the rider isn't the limiting factor anymore. Also it's possible that with just a cadence sensor and no torque sensor, that a class 1 PAS only bike could go top speed with high cadence in a low gear (circus pedaling) with less effort than my Trek.

I've been a bike rider for decades, but I've developed a lung disease that made it impossible to ride due to my hilly environment at over a mile elevation. In my case I need the exercise from pedaling, but I'm limited by one lung at 6500 feet, and on my regular Kona Mtn bike I can go through a C-tank of oxygen at 5 liters per minute after just 15 miles of mild hilly paved bikes paths (in about 75 minutes riding as hard as I can). That ride requires me to take a 10lb oxygen tank in my camelback, so the advantage of a lighter bike is lost.

With my Trek Bosche powered PAS I can ride down from the base of the mountain where I live to the off-road bike trails 8 miles away, ride around the single tracks using pedal assist for 5-20 miles, and then ride the 8 miles home, with 800 foot climb over the last 2 miles on one charge. And I can leave my oxygen at home if I go on a shorter ride with higher levels of assist (less range).

My 19 year old son is a decent biker in good shape, and without assist on his Kona bike even he can't make the ride up the last 2 miles of our steep uphill streets to the house without trying so hard that he wants to barf. With him on my wife's Trek Neko+ he can pass me on the hills, but he's still not able to rocket uphill at 20mph.
 
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J.R. said:
That's what makes laws work in the US, otherwise you'd need a cop on every street corner. As it is too many disregard "worse case", that tends to fill the jails and leaves victims in the wake. Willfully riding an ebike too powerful by law on a bike path and having an "accident" that seriously hurts someone, let alone a kid, changes the legal charge from civil to criminal.
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That quote sounds perfect. Have you ever driven over speed limit? I didn't say I roll up and down bike path at 28mph.
Ask a young family with stroller and youngster dragging behind on tricycle what they think of new law allowing electric bikes to zip up and down path at 20mph.
I bought my 28mph bike before laws were written, and ride at speeds that are safe for everyone. I am a good example of why ebikes are not bad. In any 28 vs 20mph factory bike I can think of- the 20mph is the more powerful of the two.
Can you tell the difference between st1 platinum and st1 elite? Haibike full seven 45 or full seven 20mph? If everybody self polices as you suggest, why are their cops at all?
If I had to choose now after the fact, I probably would choose the legal 20mph bike. My normal ride to beach was 9 miles one way. 3 miles were heavenly multiuse paths and the other six were bike lanes. By keeping my speed below 20 on paths and way lower as situation dictated, yea, I'm going to break that law. In fact, in Ventura, CA, the path has multiple signs stating "no motorized bicycles". Would you not ride on the path at all or would you ride responsibly and low key enough to enjoy that nice car free path?
 
pmac said:
I ride a regular bike and my wife rides a PAS Haibike. I really like ebikes and will buy one for myself at some point. I do think that, in general, people that go from riding a regular bike to an ebike tend to favor PAS bikes since pedaling is what they are used to and what seems normal while riding a bike. Bikes with throttles, particular those that can exceed 20 mph really are different from regular bikes or speed limited PAS bikes. Obviously, a regular bike or PAS bike can exceed 20 mph, but the rider or gravity has to provide the ability to do so. In my many years of riding, I've found very few recreational riders (other than those in a paceline) who can exceed 20 mph for any substantial distance other than down a big hill.

I don't think there is anything wrong with throttles. They are particularly useful for folks that need them or who are unfamiliar with the shifting required on a PAS bike, but I'm not surprised that bikes with throttles (or a speed limiter of 28 mph) are placed in a separate legal classification in some jurisdictions.

My guess is that the California classification system is likely to be adopted nationally over the next 10 years or so as ebikes become more prevalent. And think that is a good thing for all stakeholders in cycling world, whether they use an ebike or not, from a safety point of view.

In my opinion, to claim that a throttle equipped bike that can exceed 25 or 30 mph, should be treated the same as regular bike or a speed limited PAS bike on anything other than a public street ignores the reality that while public streets are built for higher speed traffic, MUP, bike trails, single track, etc are simply not. Having someone whizz by a walker, a little kid on a bike or another cyclist at 30 mph on a bike path is, in my opinion, simply unsafe. A throttle makes it easier maintain higher speeds for longer distances, which is the essence of the safety issue.
Click to expand...
 
You tend to group yourself (pas, 20mph) conviently with regular bikes, yet exaggerate examples of 25-30mph throttled bikes as bikes that should be out on the road, jockeying with automobiles. Calif. law does not differeniate between 20mph pas or throttle bikes other than they call 1 class one and the other class 2. The class 3 28mph are not allowed throttles at all.
Class 3 should have been grouped in with the rest with a state speed limit imposed on all bicycles when on multi use path.
Ask your imanigary family with kids on the path how they feel about 20mph electric bikes on the paths. Than throw in the pas, throttle thing. Their response will be the same.
And, how are police going to be able to spot the evil doer on 28mph pedal assist bike on path? They can't. A peed limit of 15 or whatever would have Been enforcable.
The essence of the safety issue has nothing to do with how long someone can maintain 20mph, the incident will happen in a matter of 10 ft.
 
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