Are newer hub motors as capable as mid drives?

[newheights]

I have been under the impression that hub drives don't work well for heavy loads on steep hills, especially at lower speeds such as scenarios where the terrain limits your speed due to tight or technical riding. My understanding was the motors work best at certain (high) RPMs, and the hub motors in particular can't keep that up as your speed drops because they don't have access to the gearing on the bike.

However, I am now seeing some hub drives are mentioned to be geared, and even with pretty impressive torque ratings (95 nm on the Ride1Up LMT'D for example). I was told by a LBS selling Aventon Aventures the hub motors work fine for big hills for the big heavy (73 lbs) bike with a 400 lb payload capacity. I was skeptical but one of the forum users on the Aventon section confirmed riding up 10% grade hill at 12 mph using throttle only without issue, though for only ~0.5 miles.

My intended use would on occasion see me riding off-road hills averaging 11% grade for 2.5-4 miles, with rider + gear at ~275 lbs, occasionally towing a trailer for an additional ~50-75 lbs. I have tried this with one of the specialized brose 90 nm bikes and it handled it like a champ in the lowest gear without any overheating (excep the brakes on the way down, hah). Is it realistic to think a hub motor could also perform something like this? If so, that opens a much larger budget friendly range of options.

 

[Nomad]

All I'm going to say is ride it in those condition don't take anybody's word for it that it will do it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

However, I am now seeing some hub drives are mentioned to be geared

Almost all hub-drives are geared, and have been geared for many years now (the only exception is a Direct Drive hub motor, which is not geared). Whatever the spec of a hub-drive motor is, it does not change a cow into a stallion regarding climbing.

 

[AHicks]

I have been under the impression that hub drives don't work well for heavy loads on steep hills, especially at lower speeds such as scenarios where the terrain limits your speed due to tight or technical riding. My understanding was the motors work best at certain (high) RPMs, and the hub motors in particular can't keep that up as your speed drops because they don't have access to the gearing on the bike.

However, I am now seeing some hub drives are mentioned to be geared, and even with pretty impressive torque ratings (95 nm on the Ride1Up LMT'D for example). I was told by a LBS selling Aventon Aventures the hub motors work fine for big hills for the big heavy (73 lbs) bike with a 400 lb payload capacity. I was skeptical but one of the forum users on the Aventon section confirmed riding up 10% grade hill at 12 mph using throttle only without issue, though for only ~0.5 miles.

My intended use would on occasion see me riding off-road hills averaging 11% grade for 2.5-4 miles, with rider + gear at ~275 lbs, occasionally towing a trailer for an additional ~50-75 lbs. I have tried this with one of the specialized brose 90 nm bikes and it handled it like a champ in the lowest gear without any overheating (excep the brakes on the way down, hah). Is it realistic to think a hub motor could also perform something like this? If so, that opens a much larger budget friendly range of options.

On the bold, there's your big hint as to the results of any testing you do. You might get some fantastic results with a geared hub - but only until/unless it overheats. The mid drive, with it's available granny gear, generally won't have that issue. But that's not saying it's perfect either.

There's room in this world for both types, and each is capable of doing an awesome job - IF - carefully vetted with YOUR purposes in mind. I think of the mid drives when it comes to hills and heavy loads, and also for those that are going to want to shift purposefully to keep the bike in exactly the right gearfor any given condition, full time. The beauty of the geared hub is it's brain dead simplicity. Point and go, with confidence......

Last, I won't own a bike without a throttle. That's the elephant in the room. They're pretty much standard on the geared hubs, not so much on the mid drives. The Bafang powered mids are the only ones that have that option....

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Found this very helpful on the pros and cons of both systems and a good basic explanation of how each system works:

 

[fauconnier]

Regarding the power section from the video, hub motors are more powerful because they are advertised wrongly !!! Just buy a mid motor that is also advertised wrongly, what I did, and you get the best of both worlds !

 

[newheights]

I think he is talking about watts, he says most mid drives are 250 watts neglecting to cover the bafang mid drives. At least for me sustained torque output is more important. I don't care how fast I go, I just don't want it bogging down and crapping out on me when I need it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

he says most mid drives are 250 watts

Nominal power. Actual mechanical power (which is approximately 80% of electrical) for strong Bosch, Specialized/Brose, Yamaha/Giant or Shimano motors can easily exceed 500 W.
I can bet Bafang quotes the electrical power of their motors as it looks better on paper.

Also, the hub-drive motor needs to have far more power to match the mid-drive performance, especially on climbing.

 

[ruffruff]

I HIGHLY doubt any bike, middrive or hub is hauling 400lbs up a 10% grade at 12mph throttle only.

 

[ava1ar]

I HIGHLY doubt any bike, middrive or hub is hauling 400lbs up a 10% grade at 12mph throttle only.

Some people build things with 5kW or 10kW hub motors and still call them "ebikes" - I think these things can do it and probably faster than 12mph, however I would never call these monsters bikes.

 

[fauconnier]

Also, the hub-drive motor needs to have far more power to match the mid-drive performance, especially on climbing.

And the voltage drop faster and lower because of that demand...

 

[smorgasbord]

Found this very helpful on the pros and cons of both systems and a good basic explanation of how each system works:

This guy apparently has never ridden a mid-drive motor with a throttle, and apparently doesn't understand how mid-drive motors work in that the chainring is not directly connected to the pedals. Combined with his take on power (numbers don't matter, it's how the power can be applied), and weight (he doesn't differentiate between sprung and unsprung weight I just stopped watching that nonsense.

 

[Gordon71]

I have been under the impression that hub drives don't work well for heavy loads on steep hills, especially at lower speeds such as scenarios where the terrain limits your speed due to tight or technical riding. My understanding was the motors work best at certain (high) RPMs, and the hub motors in particular can't keep that up as your speed drops because they don't have access to the gearing on the bike.

However, I am now seeing some hub drives are mentioned to be geared, and even with pretty impressive torque ratings (95 nm on the Ride1Up LMT'D for example). I was told by a LBS selling Aventon Aventures the hub motors work fine for big hills for the big heavy (73 lbs) bike with a 400 lb payload capacity. I was skeptical but one of the forum users on the Aventon section confirmed riding up 10% grade hill at 12 mph using throttle only without issue, though for only ~0.5 miles.

My intended use would on occasion see me riding off-road hills averaging 11% grade for 2.5-4 miles, with rider + gear at ~275 lbs, occasionally towing a trailer for an additional ~50-75 lbs. I have tried this with one of the specialized brose 90 nm bikes and it handled it like a champ in the lowest gear without any overheating (excep the brakes on the way down, hah). Is it realistic to think a hub motor could also perform something like this? If so, that opens a much larger budget friendly range of options.

All I can add is that I've been riding a Rad Rover for a few years now and have not run across a hill that I could not easily pedal up in 3rd gear. I weigh about 200lbs.
The bike is stock regarding motor and controller.

 

[smorgasbord]

All I can add is that I've been riding a Rad Rover for a few years now and have not run across a hill that I could not easily pedal up in 3rd gear. I weigh about 200lbs.
The bike is stock regarding motor and controller.

YMMV of course. I could point you at some hills the Rad Rover we rented a few years ago couldn't handle. But, it was a nice bike, especially for the price.

 

[Gordon71]

YMMV of course. I could point you at some hills the Rad Rover we rented a few years ago couldn't handle. But, it was a nice bike, especially for the price.

I'm sure that's true. One has to pick a bike that works where they live. I got lucky I guess and my choice works well for where I live. If it didn't I guess I can easily do upgrades to the motor etc. Also I guess the newer version of the Rover has a more powerful motor although I've not ridden one.

 

[gromike]

I have a Trek 7.2 that I put a BBS02 mid-drive in, and a 20 year-old MTB that I put a DD hub drive in. The mid-drive is a fast, responsive bike, but I like the hub motor bike better. A large part of that is the hub motor's on a full suspension bike and has torque sensing PAS, though fatter tires and a suspension fork are my next project on the Trek.

The DD hub motor is almost silent when pedaling, and has regen braking, which I really like. On full charge the mid-drive goes 35mph, the hub motor bike does maybe 30. They are both drawing something like 1250 watts at full power. That's on a 750 watt mid-drive and a (labeled) 500 watt hub motor. On steep hills I do need to pedal the hub motor bike, which isn't a problem on a 24 speed MTB.

 

[ElevenAD]

Geared hub is generally better than a direct drive hub for climbing but still no where near as good as a middrive imo. If your dead set on buying a hub bike watch the vid below because some are better climbers than others.
Keep in mind this hill is 20% grade and the rider is using throttle only

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Keep in mind this hill is 20% grade and the rider is using throttle only

The vid is based on a very short 20% grade segment. I wonder what would have happened to any of those motors on a 4 mile climb of the average grade 5.7% with long segments of 8.6 or 10.4% grade (that was something I had to climb on a 520 W peak power mid-motor e-bike with a 21.4 gear-inches granny gear).

 

[fauconnier]

The battery has a very important part on the way a bike will perform a long climb. Hub motors that pull a lot of Amp. must be able to get them for a long period. The battery is often the first one to give up on long climbs. A mid drive is far superior in this situation because the overall power could be managed by the gear ratio to the detriment of the speed.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

All I can add is that I've been riding a Rad Rover for a few years now and have not run across a hill that I could not easily pedal up in 3rd gear. I weigh about 200lbs.
The bike is stock regarding motor and controller.

How steep and how long are your hills? That matters a bit.