Are newer hub motors as capable as mid drives?

[PedalUma]

I like the ethereal, invisible eBike. It is there as much additional power support as requested but is not visible or with a change of the bike's feel. It is like a tail wind that you command. You are still riding a bike but it is amplified. Good electric assist is like a standard guitar, but amplified. Jimi still played the guitar with all the feel and expression, it was just amplified much like this eBike.

 

[PedalUma]

@tomjasz. that particular bike is getting 34mm x 622 WBT Byway tan wall tires today. It will look great in the 2023 Butter & Eggs Parade, where we will feature 40 circulating ridders of all ages as our 'float' this Saturday. It will be a sunny 69 F. Our 'float' is #165. I will ride with a silly helmet that looks like a cowboy hat and with farmer overalls. Tons of kids will join at the last minute. These old tires have hit too many broken, brown beer bottles to be redeemed. As for this thread, it is 85 Nm and a torque sensor mid-drive, coaster brake. This is my go to bike because it is so responsive and fun. I like elegant and simple. It is a three speed that can kick Stefan's rear end on big climbs. A kid once challenged me, he said in the Principal's office that I hurt him, I said how, show me where it is black and blue? He didn't pull down his pants for all to see the purple and orange. Case solved.

 

[CodyDog]

I like the ethereal, invisible eBike. It is there as much additional power support as requested but is not visible or with a change of the bike's feel. It is like a tail wind that you command. You are still riding a bike but it is amplified. Good electric assist is like a standard guitar, but amplified. Jimi still played the guitar with all the feel and expression, it was just amplified much like this eBike.

View attachment 151967

Which make and model is this bike? looks fabulous.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As for this thread, it is 85 Nm and a torque sensor mid-drive, coaster brake. This is my go to bike because it is so responsive and fun. I like elegant and simple. It is a three speed that can kick Stefan's rear end on big climbs.

QR skewers, a coaster brake, a V-Brake.
A World Champion in ride safety indeed.
The cowboy hat helmet might not help downhill.

 

[ElevenAD]

Definately agree....its also the most fun to ride, not sure why that is..perhaps lowest cg. If it had torque sensing thats all I would own.

I have high hopes for the CYC proton

I did do a 6 month stint on just the BBSHD (on both DIY ebikes). When I went back to the GMAC with torque sensing it was such a nice change. WIth the BBSHD, you just dont go much faster when pushing harder so you tend not to. The rush of more electric power when you push harder on a torque sensing system inspires me to workout harder.

Note that my rides are all for fitness. Commuter and/or sightseeing types might prefer cadence sensing more

BBSHD is a strange bird, I remember feeling like i kinda overpaid for my Juggenaut HD just because on paper the motor was not as advanced as some of the competition, 3 years later i feel like if anything i may have under paid lol, just a great motor that is a blast to ride, so smooth! The only thing missing is torque sensing!

 

[m@Robertson]

The only thing missing is torque sensing!

If you spend some time redoing the settings inside the motor, you totally change its character. My flat-land tune only puts out about 450w on the highest level of pedal assist versus pegging the needle on watts, which is how it comes out of the gate, and does so at much lower assist levels than '9'. I now have what I can call a bona fide a 'steep hills' tune that still pares back the pedal assist significantly, but will just touch 1000w on '9' while clambering up a steep grade, and frequently will still be a bit below that. You also eliminate the power overrun when you stop pedaling, and make its power-on ramp gentle so engagement is unnoticeable rather than a crash on the gear cluster.

I find that by limiting pedal assist like this, I end up working harder simply because I want hard exercise. But that hard work is on my terms and I can drift in and out of it at will while still maintaining the same forward progress and even maintain my preferred cadence, which is not something you can get out of torque sensing.

I'm planning on pedaling in to Sea Otter tomorrow. I think its about 14 miles and the Boundary Road into Laguna Seca has some really steep, albeit fairly short, grades.

 

[m@Robertson]

Custom controller settings?
View attachment 151947

Yes but what are they for the BBSHD controller? 30a is likely for battery current limit. I could not find phase amp limit or resistance.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I find that by limiting pedal assist like this, I end up working harder simply because I want hard exercise. But that hard work is on my terms and I can drift in and out of it at will while still maintaining the same forward progress and even maintain my preferred cadence, which is not something you can get out of torque sensing.

Yes! I'm by no means a strong rider, but I love how cycling effort feels, and I love how my torque-sensing ebike lets me dial in just the right amount. I generally keep a 75-85 RPM cadence with gearing first, then with 9-level PAS. Ground speed is a usually secondary concern.

Maybe I misunderstood the 2nd sentence, but I'm getting a very similar experience with the factory torque sensing on my bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

while still maintaining the same forward progress and even maintain my preferred cadence, which is not something you can get out of torque sensing.

I cannot understand that either. Each of my mid-drive e-bikes has (I think) as many as 5 different sensors (including the torque and cadence -- or the rider's power sensor) and I experience absolutely natural riding sensation, maintaining my cadence with gears, and counter resistances (surface, climbing, headwind) with the assistance levels.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I like the ethereal, invisible eBike. It is there as much additional power support as requested but is not visible or with a change of the bike's feel. It is like a tail wind that you command. You are still riding a bike but it is amplified. Good electric assist is like a standard guitar, but amplified. Jimi still played the guitar with all the feel and expression, it was just amplified much like this eBike.

View attachment 151967

Beautiful bike, as so many of your custom creations are!

Curious, is your oft-stated devotion to ebikes that don't look like ebikes a retro esthetic or something else?

 

[mschwett]

...

I find that by limiting pedal assist like this, I end up working harder simply because I want hard exercise. But that hard work is on my terms and I can drift in and out of it at will while still maintaining the same forward progress and even maintain my preferred cadence, which is not something you can get out of torque sensing.

...

interesting; but i'm not quite sure why you couldn't get the same thing out of a bike with more sensors and the correct settings. obviously every bike with a torque sensor also has a cadence sensor. at least with the specialized system, the distinction between the power multiplication ratio and the maximum assist gives you a similar result. for example a high multiplication factor (say 3x) would generate consistent and significant forward motion when you're just pedaling softly (e.g. 50 rider watts + 150 motor watts) with a cutoff of 300 watts of motor power would scale smoothly from 50 to 100 watts of of rider power, and beyond the 100 watts of rider power (when you want to work really really hard) the motor doesn't continue to do more work, allowing you stay at a human-friendly cadence and gear.

your comment makes me think they should add a "minimum" motor power, where as long as you're pedaling (which of course the system knows) the motor provides at least XX watts. i'm of the mind that more sensors and more customization is better, and the lack of a torque sensor on traditional/low-end hub drive greatly limits the possibilities, but of course it simplifies other things.

 

[PedalUma]

something else

Thanks Jeremy, That 'something else' is how a bike feels. The wheels have solid axles on that bike which are are held on by extra-strong stainless nuts, the outer ring is stationary and the threaded part spins. The special chain is as strong as a belt because it is also used for stopping with the coaster brake. The front brake has extra wide brake shoes and duel pivots. It can lock up. That bike got new Byway WTB tires today. I am going to jump on it right now and go for a ride. CroMo is so comfy. Oh, today it has a larger battery for a longer ride. They swap in seconds.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Thanks Jeremy, That 'something else' is how a bike feels. The wheels have solid axles on that bike which are are held on by extra-strong stainless nuts, the outer ring is stationary and the threaded part spins. The special chain is as strong as a belt because it is also used for stopping with the coaster brake. The front brake has extra wide brake shoes and duel pivots. It can lock up. That bike got new Byway WTB tires today. I am going to jump on it right now and go for a ride. CroMo is so comfy. Oh, today it has a larger battery for a longer ride. They swap in seconds.

Interesting mechanical design approach. But I was asking why you're so intent on hiding the "e" part of your ebikes? Is that what your customers want?

 

[AHicks]

interesting; but i'm not quite sure why you couldn't get the same thing out of a bike with more sensors and the correct settings. obviously every bike with a torque sensor also has a cadence sensor. at least with the specialized system, the distinction between the power multiplication ratio and the maximum assist gives you a similar result. for example a high multiplication factor (say 3x) would generate consistent and significant forward motion when you're just pedaling softly (e.g. 50 rider watts + 150 motor watts) with a cutoff of 300 watts of motor power would scale smoothly from 50 to 100 watts of of rider power, and beyond the 100 watts of rider power (when you want to work really really hard) the motor doesn't continue to do more work, allowing you stay at a human-friendly cadence and gear.

your comment makes me think they should add a "minimum" motor power, where as long as you're pedaling (which of course the system knows) the motor provides at least XX watts. i'm of the mind that more sensors and more customization is better, and the lack of a torque sensor on traditional/low-end hub drive greatly limits the possibilities, but of course it simplifies other things.

If I'm following you, you might want to try a "power" based type cadence system. These use a MUCH better/more sophisticated controller to establish a certain amount of power for each PAS level as compared to the inexpensive "speed" based systems supplied with most inexpensive hub driven bikes.

KT makes a really popular one, but the UART based Bafang mid drives also have that ability.

Using a "power" based system, the KT for example, you can set the amount of power you prefer for PAS 1. This allows for some pretty awesome low speed control, where you can easily blend right in with foot traffic on a multi use trail (while maintaining your cadence a lot of the time), when set in the neighborhood of 75-125 watts. If you want to run a little faster, or conditions change and you need a little more assistance, bump it up to PAS 2. Your speed has NO effect on the amount of power to the motor. The power type cadence system is truly about how much "assist" you want/need at any given moment, regardless of how fast the bike is moving.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The power type cadence system is truly about how much "assist" you want/need at any given moment, regardless of how fast the bike is moving.

The torque/cadence system is truly about how much assist you want/need at any given moment, only depending how lightly or hard you're pedalling.

 

[PedalUma]

Interesting mechanical design approach. But I was asking why you're so intent on hiding the "e" part of your ebikes? Is that what your customers want?

I am not embarrassed that they are electric, but non-bike folks can't recognize them in plain sight and that is fun. My first one was like a first pancake you feed to the dog. It was clunky with a big battery, messy wires and had a ghost pedal motor with a throttle. By my twelfth they became more refined and almost all had torque/cadence sensors set up so you get more power with both higher pedaling pressure and higher pedaling speed. My fourth one still had extra-wire at the base of the down tube. You can see it painted silver. But they were getting better and better. Here is that fourth build. It had a chrome frame and an 8-speed IGH. I told the mom of a guy on the design team of Specialized, that it is called Creo Eater when she asked its name.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Definately agree....its also the most fun to ride, not sure why that is..perhaps lowest cg. If it had torque sensing thats all I would own.

I have high hopes for the CYC proton

I did do a 6 month stint on just the BBSHD (on both DIY ebikes). When I went back to the GMAC with torque sensing it was such a nice change. WIth the BBSHD, you just dont go much faster when pushing harder so you tend not to. The rush of more electric power when you push harder on a torque sensing system inspires me to workout harder.

Note that my rides are all for fitness. Commuter and/or sightseeing types might prefer cadence sensing more

I have no experience with torque sensing.. but my next bike will have it for sure as I need to experience it.
I totally get the push harder get more electrons.
That said I approach the cadence sensor differently for motivation. Which ever PAS I'm in.. chosen by the cadence I'm comfortable with at that point in the ride... I try to keep the wattage at zero (or as low as able) on flats so this motivates me to push harder to maintain. If I encounter an incline or wind, my cadence drops and the motor assists to raise cadence and keep me from getting too tired.
I find riding like this a great motivator... ymmv

 

[Gionnirocket]

I like the ethereal, invisible eBike. It is there as much additional power support as requested but is not visible or with a change of the bike's feel. It is like a tail wind that you command. You are still riding a bike but it is amplified. Good electric assist is like a standard guitar, but amplified. Jimi still played the guitar with all the feel and expression, it was just amplified much like this eBike.

View attachment 151967

Sorry.... But Jimmy played the most heavily distorted, abused and adulterated with special effects guitar by anyone of his time and was on the cutting edge. Masterfully and as fluid as if it was an extension of his body I have to add.
That said... and you know how much I admire your builds and appreciate their clean look... but to me they're more John Denver than Jimmy and something my kindergarten teacher might like to ride to church on Sunday.

He's still playing a guitar, just amplified

And too John Denver has talent and on occasion I can appreciate one of his songs

... but I personally prefer an eBike that more resembles Jimmy and his fully evident wah wah pedal.

minute 2:15

 

[PedalUma]

Hey, what about Mr. Rodgers? I think that too many bikes try to hard to look cool and badass. Like someone in a Hawaiian shirt and a black leather jacket with white rimed sunglasses. It is true, I like to undo that and still pass them on a trail. Now is this bike Mr. Rodgers to you? It is an S02 with throttle. That is me in the photo. I normally don't show photos of myself.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Hey, what about Mr. Rodgers? I think that too many bikes try to hard to look cool and badass. Like someone in a Hawaiian shirt and a black leather jacket with white rimed sunglasses. It is true, I like to undo that and still pass them on a trail. Now is this bike Mr. Rodgers to you? It is an S02 with throttle. That is me in the photo. I normally don't show photos of myself.


View attachment 152016

Now that's unnecessarily to the other extreme and more like Alice Cooper to me... never did appreciate him much.