Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors?

[SC00CHB00CH]

To stir the pot a little here-
We seem to have wandered a bit - from "zippy" to ability to climb? Earlier we were comparing the "zippy factor", hub drives vs. mid.

I don't think anyone here will argue the fact that a mid will out climb a hub, for extended or steep climb purposes at least. We already know that! Put a mid in granny gear and you can climb rock walls. Does that make them "zippy"?

A bulldozer can climb much the same way, for a very similar reason (gearing). Does that make them "zippy"? I don't think so

Are there differences in what comes to mind with the term "zippy"?

Are hub motors more zippy than mid-drives? NO they are not more quick or speedy

If I compare a 250 watt mid drive to a 3000 watt hub motor and say that hub motors are more 'zippy' isn't an apples to apples comparison.

When comparing apples to apples 750 watt mid drive versus a 750 watt hub motor , same weight , same everything. The mid-drive is more zippy in every way. Corners ,flat roads , hills , no hills. Irregardless of climbing ability. It's just straight physics when understanding how each motor works to propel the bike.
So unequivocally YES mid-drives are WAY more zippy 'very quick or speedy' than hub motors in every single imaginable way.

Another thing to consider is wheel size , a smaller wheeled bike irregardless of the motor be it a mid-drive or hub motor will typically feel more zippy because of the smaller diameter wheel.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zippy

very quick or speedy

 

[MinnBobber]

Here's a good video explaining why mid-drives are better than hub drives in many ways.

The video seemed to not tell the whole story, showed a bias toward mid drives.
If you are buying an E bike, not building, and it’s a road bike/ not a mtn E bike, then it’s a much different comparison.

I disagree with a couple important points:
- Mids are more reliable … can break chains but hubs loosen spikes. Quality hub bikes engineer the rear wheel / spokes for their intended use.
I know of many hub drives with 50.000 miles but not mids.
And don’t get me started on chain life where mid drives add to chain wear vs hub motors which lessen the drivetrain load and extend chain/ gear life.

- His saying mids feel more natural is imo clearly not true if you look at a well engineered hub bike with dialed in cadence and torque sensing.
I ride a hub drive mainly because I never found a mid that felt as natural!

I also value the silent hub motor aspect vs mids.

His comparison had some valid points but some stereotypes that tainted it.

A lot depends on your usage and what you value in your E bike.
I do city riding and want a smooth and quiet and reliable and efficient 28 mph bike.

P.S. The German TQ mid does interest me a lot with its design and crank concentric motor.
If one can live with only 250 watts….
Looks like a winner in the lightweight E road bike niche.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For what it's worth I find those specialized vados to be underpowered.

565 W of the peak mechanical power (715 W electrical) with 90 Nm on a Specialized 2.2 mid-drive motor (Vado 5.0) is a lot. Only you do not know about it. (250 W is the nominal motor power).

One of older EMBN videos involves a Bosch E-Bike Canyon e-MTB with only 70 Nm of torque.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

The video seemed to not tell the whole story, showed a bias toward mid drives.
If you are buying an E bike, not building, and it’s a road bike/ not a mtn E bike, then it’s a much different comparison.

I disagree with a couple important points:
- Mids are more reliable … can break chains but hubs loosen spikes. Quality hub bikes engineer the rear wheel / spokes for their intended use.
I know of many hub drives with 50.000 miles but not mids.
And don’t get me started on chain life where mid drives add to chain wear vs hub motors which lessen the drivetrain load and extend chain/ gear life.

- His saying mids feel more natural is imo clearly not true if you look at a well engineered hub bike with dialed in cadence and torque sensing.
I ride a hub drive mainly because I never found a mid that felt as natural!

I also value the silent hub motor aspect vs mids.

His comparison had some valid points but some stereotypes that tainted it.

A lot depends on your usage and what you value in your E bike.
I do city riding and want a smooth and quiet and reliable and efficient 28 mph bike.

P.S. The German TQ mid does interest me a lot with its design and crank concentric motor.
If one can live with only 250 watts….
Looks like a winner in the lightweight E road bike niche.

He was saying mid-drives feel more natural IF YOU THE RIDER know how to drive a manual transmission like a car manual transmission.
If you're uncomfortable with manually shifting gears and want an automatic transmission like car then get a hub motor.

If you don't have good knowledge of manual transmission like in a car. A hub motor is going to feel more smooth to you. Not because of the motor itself versus a mid drive but because of your level of skill regarding shifting gears.

Saying hub motors are more zippy than a mid-drive is like saying a turtle is faster than a cheetah. It boils down to simple physics/mechanics of how the motors drive the bike. The video was comparing two 750 watt motors on the same bike , one was a mid-drive and one was a hub motor. Same manufacturer , same battery and the mid-drive was more zippy and had a higher top speed.
You have an actual test putting two motors with the same wattage and both were installed on the same bike , same battery and the mid-drive outperformed the hub motor.
You can dial in both motor types to feel smooth as you want by limiting the wattage of each respective pedal assist range.
My mother couldn't drive my bike to save her life because there is no gear shift sensor and you have to manually shift gears to propel faster. Like a manual car. But she has a pedego hub motor bike which she drives just fine.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If you're uncomfortable with manually shifting gears and want an automatic transmission like car then

...get a mid-drive e-bike with the Gates belt drive and automatic IGH.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

565 W of the peak mechanical power (715 W electrical) with 90 Nm on a Specialized 2.2 mid-drive motor (Vado 5.0) is a lot. Only you do not know about it. (250 W is the nominal motor power).

One of older EMBN videos involves a Bosch E-Bike Canyon e-MTB with only 70 Nm of torque.

Impressive , my folder could do that with just throttle only . I live in the mountains and tested it some inclines like that , super scary. But I purpose built it for climbing like that.
That rider is doing some serious pedaling.

 

[MinnBobber]

As a analog road biker who rode 6000 miles a year, in Minnesota with a 7 month season, I know very well how to shift a manual bike tranny.

I will repeat my experience of testing all brands and never finding a mid that feels as natural as my hub Stromers. It feels like you with the legs of Mark Cavendish when you want it to.

Your experience may vary but I will keep testing different configurations. So far, hub was the most natural….

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

...get a mid-drive e-bike with the Gates belt drive and automatic IGH.

yes that's my next build , I've got a rohloff in box , but I'm still looking for the right donor bike
some say the rohloff can handle the torque some say they can't
I'm just gonna test it myself using the bbs02 motor and 52v battery
I do have a friend with a hummingbird carbon folder I may see if he wants to install one but I', concerned with the bottom bracket size , I think hummingbird folders are 68mm , he has a 4speed archer IGH
That bike weighs 18lbs , so it might be a screamer

 

[fooferdoggie]

As a analog road biker who rode 6000 miles a year, in Minnesota with a 7 month season, I know very well how to shift a manual bike tranny.

I will repeat my experience of testing all brands and never finding a mid that feels as natural as my hub Stromers. It feels like you with the legs of Mark Cavendish when you want it to.

Your experience may vary but I will keep testing different configurations. So far, hub was the most natural….

except your picking a very rare Hub motor system that few have.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

As a analog road biker who rode 6000 miles a year, in Minnesota with a 7 month season, I know very well how to shift a manual bike tranny.

I will repeat my experience of testing all brands and never finding a mid that feels as natural as my hub Stromers. It feels like you with the legs of Mark Cavendish when you want it to.

Your experience may vary but I will keep testing different configurations. So far, hub was the most natural….

Again I think you're comparing a well tuned Honda Civic turbo hub motor to a classic high torque wide open V8 camaro like mid-drive motor.

Once you dial in a mid -drive it's really more power in every gear. Because every gear has power. It's just straight mechanics of how the motors propel the rider.

 

[PedalUma]

I would not advise a Bafang on a carbon frame.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

I would not advise a Bafang on a carbon frame.

I've already built one and it ran excellent. Better then expected to be honest. The SAVA frames are really strong. Don't buy a frame from Aliexpress though , you might get a counterfeit . The guy at SAVA trained in Germany , they make some great one piece carbon frames.

I had over 1000+ miles on my bike (see picture) and it's a SAVA carbon folder. Never broke a chain. No flexing of the carbon under torque. Notice the rear of the frame is the box design which adds to stiffness. The motor doesn't shift or move at all. I recently sold this on EBAY and the new owner is installing an IGH. I'm worried about the Hummingbird folder because it doesn't have the rear box design like the SAVA but it does seem to be really well engineered. It depends on how well they built the bottom bracket, that's the key. I know the SAVA will work , but I want to try something even lighter. It's my goal when building an ebike , "It has to be light , strong, easily carry in a car trunk and really , really fast"

The hummingbird may be my next build. BBS02 , 52v , I included a picture of it (the blue bike) . I just wished it had a box frame in the rear. I don't like coaster brakes either. Only way to find out is to build it. They do sell a hub kit for it. But it doesn't meet my power needs.



But I can vouch putting a mid-drive on a carbon frame worked just fine for me.

 

[MinnBobber]

except your picking a very rare Hub motor system that few have.

True, but trying to balance the “mids are better mantra” , when they don’t compare best mids to best hubs. Mid lovers go with generalizations that mids are better, period.
I would agree that many mids work better but comparing best mids to best hubs….. one needs to take a long hard look at both

This is especially true when folks compare mids to hubs that only have cadence sensor … horrible setup!

Ride what you like, it’s all good.

P.S. And let’s look at next gen bikes.
Stromer with 850 watt rear hub motor and new E shift 12 speed Pinion and Gates belt looks like an ultimate combo.

 

[AHicks]

True, but trying to balance the “mids are better mantra” , when they don’t compare best mids to best hubs. Mid lovers go with generalizations that mids are better, period.
I would agree that many mids work better but comparing best mids to best hubs….. one needs to take a long hard look at both

This is especially true when folks compare mids to hubs that only have cadence sensor … horrible setup!

Ride what you like, it’s all good.

P.S. And let’s look at next gen bikes.
Stromer with 850 watt rear hub motor and new E shift 12 speed Pinion and Gates belt looks like an ultimate combo.

On the bold, that's it in a nutshell from where I'm sitting. And further, it requires you have extensive riding experience with seat time on both types, because only then, when you've reached that point, will you realize that all else being equal, BOTH types work REALLY well under different set's of circumstances!

For instance, regarding the mid gearing, and all around zippy feeling - best of luck achieving that with little experience shifting a no throttle derailleur equipped bike. Introducing hills into the equation just makes it worse!

Another - you get a chance to bring a guest along on a bike ride. You have a hub and a mid you could loan out for the ride. Which one are you going to put them on? Your high end mid, or the brain dead easy to ride hub (with throttle)?

Now which one is "best"?

Which bike do you think your guest will enjoy more?

And hell yes auto cvt's and high end geared hubs are really cool. That in mind, how many do you believe though, are sold to first time buyers?

 

[mschwett]

On the bold, that's it in a nutshell from where I'm sitting. And further, it requires you have extensive riding experience with seat time on both types, because only then, when you've reached that point, will you realize that all else being equal, BOTH types work REALLY well under different set's of circumstances!
…

i agree, too many variables being conflated.

torque vs cadence sensing: not a mid vs hub issue. either could have either although some combinations are more common

power and torque: some motors have more or less of one or the other. again independent from where it’s placed, although some combinations are more common

throttle: possible with either, more common in hubs

gearing: rare to find a single-speed mid drive, but certainly possible. again the range of gearing and type of shifting make a huge difference, independent from the location of the motor. gearing also takes into account tire size, and the resulting acceleration also depends on weight.

finally, programming. one absolutely could program a mid drive to drop full power the instant the pedals turned a notch, or a button was pressed. mostly that’s not what people riding bicycles want, so you don’t see they too often.

given that the chainring is decoupled from the cranks on your typical mid-drive setup, i believe you could produce nearly the exact same feel with a 500w, 50nm mid drive and a 500w, 50nm hub drive (front or rear!) as long as the programming and input sensors were the same. there is no technical reason, it’s just a matter of market preference.

 

[fooferdoggie]

True, but trying to balance the “mids are better mantra” , when they don’t compare best mids to best hubs. Mid lovers go with generalizations that mids are better, period.
I would agree that many mids work better but comparing best mids to best hubs….. one needs to take a long hard look at both

This is especially true when folks compare mids to hubs that only have cadence sensor … horrible setup!

Ride what you like, it’s all good.

P.S. And let’s look at next gen bikes.
Stromer with 850 watt rear hub motor and new E shift 12 speed Pinion and Gates belt looks like an ultimate combo.

most of the mids are not the best out there. they are mid range the same motor on higher end and mid range bikes. the stromer is only high end and poorly supported in the us. it also has issues with hills.
you have to compare say a bosch with a bafang hub as those are about the most popular out there of the two. but most hub drives are cadence only. the stromer wont be a hard look because of its price and lack of support and avalibility.

 

[Djangodog]

I think that you really need to assess a bike under all the conditions that you plan to use it..

Zero to 20, (or 28), isn’t necessarily everything, (or it can be). I like the natural feel of the mid drive with the torque sensor, (the more I give, the more it gives me). That feels zippy to me, but only if I am making an effort. If I take it easy, the output reacts in kind.

The bottom line, to me, is that the mid drive torque sensor provides more zip when I put in a good effort, which has a natural feel.

I do think that zippy probably depends on motor output and how it is signaled to deliver.

 

[tomjasz]

Once again we promote that which we don’t know mostly on the back of forum drivel. My choice is best, but lacking relevant detail. Jeebus. In some cases my 350W mid drive kicks ass on my 1000w DD. And my 1000W GD bows them both away. It’s all in the details. Me? I find reasons to run them all.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

I started looking in the internet for dual hub drive emtb.
Defender Eunaraw and E-cells.
E cells description is E-ATV. for the black edition.

That picture had me rolling.

 

[JRA]

Perhaps this will illustrate how I feel about hub and mid drives as it shows the distinct differences between their overall setup?

I agree with Al that folks all down on hub bikes have either never ridden one, and frankly wouldn't work as well for their particular riding terrain/style, or had a cheap one to start out with that was underperforming due to cadence sensing, lack of watts etc..

And pardon the rat's nest of wires on the white bike I hadn't cleaned them up yet.