Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors?

[SC00CHB00CH]

Perhaps this will illustrate how I feel about hub and mid drives as it shows the distinct differences between their overall setup?

View attachment 138182

View attachment 138183

I agree with Al that folks all down on hub bikes have either never ridden one, and frankly wouldn't work as well for their particular riding terrain/style, or had a cheap one to start out with that never was underperforming due to cadence sensing, lack of watts etc..

And pardon the rat's nest of wires on the white bike I hadn't cleaned them up yet.

So would you agree that your hub motor is naturally more zippy than your mid drive?

Do you have the ludicrous controller or is it the stock controller? The newer v2 controller pushed out 4000 watts.
That is a massive front hub motor. So again we're comparing a Porshe Turbo to a Honda Civic type R possibly?

I can't imagine all the weight in the front wheel , taking sharp turns and the bike appears to be light. I don't hate hub motors but I can't agree that mid-drives are naturally "less zippy" than hub motors when there are so many other variable at play here.

 

[AHicks]

So would you agree that your hub motor is naturally more zippy than your mid drive?

Do you have the ludicrous controller or is it the stock controller? The newer v2 controller pushed out 4000 watts.
That is a massive front hub motor. So again we're comparing a Porshe Turbo to a Honda Civic type R possibly?

I can't imagine all the weight in the front wheel , taking sharp turns and the bike appears to be light. I don't hate hub motors but I can't agree that mid-drives are naturally "less zippy" than hub motors when there are so many other variable at play here.

To add some confusion, as if there wasn't already enough

That motor @JRA is using up front is a hub motor for sure, but it's not like what a lot of us are thinking of when we say hub motor. There are 2 different types of hub motors. Gear driven, with their 5:1 gears built into the hub, and there are direct drive hubs (without gear reduction), like the one shown on JRA's bike.

Again, there are (a lot of) compromises in play when deciding which might fit your application better. Without writing a book on the topic, MY opinion is that on typical 48-52v, a direct drive hub is not going to be nearly as "peppy" as a geared hub - until they're both up over 10mph. The Direct drive motors start getting pretty efficient at 15mph+, which is where the geared hubs are starting to run out of breath.....

THEN, you add the fact that the direct drive motor has better heat dissipation. The big side covers actually help dissipate built up heat. The geared hub motor, buried inside the much smaller case with NO air circulation doesn't have a chance in comparison. Who cares? The guys that want to go REALLY fast that can put 72v+ volt batteries on them (e-motorcycles), and the guys that are commuting longer distances as fast as they can.

My vote, regarding "zippy" would be geared hub. In JRA's case, he might not want a "zippy" motor up front like that. My guess is he's just looking for a little boost - boost that won't easily loose traction.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah the first thing I noticed when I went to mid drives from geared hubs was the geared hub was a lot faster off the line, considering that you had to start from a lower gear to get the bike up and running. Starting from a lower gear, you lost time vs. the geared hub by the blips in acceleration that comes from rowing thru the gears. The mid drive doesn't become a performance leader until you mix hills in. Thats where it wins both for initial and sustained speed as well as longevity (mid drive will not fry/strip its poor little nylon internals).

On flat ground, nothing touches the acceleration on my 2wd geared hub commuter. That thing will make you giggle, and the way its geared, you still get a hard workout. But it lacks versatility which is the Achilles heel of hub motors. A mid will get you thru anything, everywhere.

 

[PedalUma]

Those Stromers are heavy. The combo of Pinion, Belt, to Hub motor concept sounds gee wiz but is odd when you think about it. The Pinion is about heavy as a modern motor. The advantage of a belt is to transfer a lot of power, but in this case it is only the rider's input that is being transferred. Then the rear hub is heavy with weight out a one end so the handling is out of balance. The wheel build also needs to be extra-heavy and it will still be prone to pinch flats and loose spokes. The Pinion will not help the motor to take sustained climbs. So, why not ditch the Pinion and put a motor in that place, transfer power with a strong chain, and place the gears so they help the motor? I saw a hub Stromer that died in a strong headwind. The trim mids it was trying to keep up with were fine. That bike had twin 19Ah batteries. It left fully charged from the next town over. All power was used in 15 miles to my town. These are strong winds. All I did was reset it out of limp mode and recharge it. He took it to the dealer a couple of days later and they had it for over one month. He had run the batteries into the ground before. That is a big bad no no.

 

[LLL]

Call me old fashioned, but I think middrives are the best between the two worlds of hubs and gears.

Those hubs with internal gearing is a good improvement, but at the end of the day they are much harder to rebuild if you do your own work, and lack the range of gearing if you like to dial things in for trails.

The feeling of single gear acceleration from behind with a hub is interesting as it winds up, but not for everyone. Give me gears any day. If I want to feel like I'm being pushed with crazy acceleration, I'll hop on my motorcycle.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Yeah the first thing I noticed when I went to mid drives from geared hubs was the geared hub was a lot faster off the line, considering that you had to start from a lower gear to get the bike up and running. Starting from a lower gear, you lost time vs. the geared hub by the blips in acceleration that comes from rowing thru the gears. The mid drive doesn't become a performance leader until you mix hills in. Thats where it wins both for initial and sustained speed as well as longevity (mid drive will not fry/strip its poor little nylon internals).

On flat ground, nothing touches the acceleration on my 2wd geared hub commuter. That thing will make you giggle, and the way its geared, you still get a hard workout. But it lacks versatility which is the Achilles heel of hub motors. A mid will get you thru anything, everywhere.

I can accelerate really fast but the gearing is not low enough to really get started as fast as I did on my recumbent. I could out accelerate about anyone,. I would do one strock shift and repat about 5 or 6 shifts crossing a road I could hit 20mph by the time I was across. but I just cant shift that fast on my mid drive as it has a tiny bit of lag when you let up and you would get a lot of clunking when your pushing that hard so shifting is slower but whe nI put out 500 or more watts the bike gets up and moves. fat tires really slow this down too.

 

[tomjasz]

“love the one you’re with..,”

 

[Djangodog]

“love the one you’re with..,”

Actually, good advice.

 

[PedalUma]

If I pedal a torque sensor bike backwards when starting it, it will have a negative pressure effect. This resets the tare for that ride. A negative butcher's thumb under the scale. It will zoom from very little pedal pressure. But if I start it with a foot on the pedal, I will need to get to that, say 3Kg, threshold before I start getting any assistance. Yes, love your bike and name it, so you care for it.

 

[JRA]

So would you agree that your hub motor is naturally more zippy than your mid drive?

Do you have the ludicrous controller or is it the stock controller? The newer v2 controller pushed out 4000 watts.
That is a massive front hub motor. So again we're comparing a Porshe Turbo to a Honda Civic type R possibly?

I can't imagine all the weight in the front wheel , taking sharp turns and the bike appears to be light. I don't hate hub motors but I can't agree that mid-drives are naturally "less zippy" than hub motors when there are so many other variable at play here.

It is faster off the line as I said and will maintain an average speed of 30mph on level ground but not without the help of the high gear ratio's available through the Schlumpf. In OD it has the equivalent of a 60t chainring so you can really put power into the pedals to help stay with the motor.

None of the Ludi stuff for me. UART tuned to 52v/25A/1300w for the Z1 and the road bike is 52v/20A/1040w. You are certainly welcome to not agree with my methods but I am not trying to sell you anything, just sharing my experience.

Actually the front wheel weight is pretty much a non sequitur as it can easily be lifted to avoid obstacles and for a DD motor the Grin is as light as a geared hub motor. What I find is the bike is pretty balanced with some weight on the front the battery in the middle and my weight biased towards the rear. Al suggests that I must spin out alot but also haven't found that to be the case as long as I keep my weight distributed properly. Only time it will spin is on a steep loose climb during the dead spot in my amateur spin. Never has ever felt out of control. But I do tend to ride it mainly in 500w mode most of the time to increase range and have been riding bikes, as well as moto's, for many years.

 

[Jason Knight]

guess I would say I like ebikes that take away the weight of the pedals while still leaving just enough resistance that I feel like I'm riding a bike and not ghost pedaling.

The "ghost pedaling" / "feels like the bike is racing ahead of me" thing was something I noticed right out of the gate with my Aventure. A lot of people say to "turn down the controller settings" but for a lot of us that's not even an option... much less why would you want to neuter the power output of the bike?

Switching from the stock 44 tooth chainring to 53 tooth helped that problem a lot, but introduced a problem I hadn't thought of, the bike became painful to try and ride if you run out of power. Switching the stock 12..32 chainring to an 11..36 brought the low gear back to manageable for non-powered pedaling, and also upped the top gear so I can keep up with the motor.

It feels to me like a lot of e-bikes with cadence sensors there's a complete mismatch of the gear ratios to the power of the motor. I'm interested in trying some of the newer bikes that have torque sensing and a rear hub motor like Aventon's new "Level 2" just to see how that works out. That could be a "best of both worlds" relegating mid-drives to the garbage bin, or it could just be a hot wet mess.

Problems you'd think mid-drive would solve, but it feels like the disadvantages outweigh the benefits (for me at least). Putting the motor on that side of the drivetrain seems like a really bad idea. But what do I know, I say the same thing about skipping a chain in mid-air gear-to-gear by deflection. For example this friend of mine who's blown her chain apart three times on a build the local shop (that I don't trust) built for her using a conversion kit.

Hell, she still owes me two master links.

Though I'd love to see a single speed drivetrain on a mid-drive with a planetary tranny between the pedals and motor. Pedals to tranny to motor to chainring. You'd have a more robust chain, no fiddly derailleur, etc. etm. Put all the complicated bits -- ALL OF IT -- in the drive assembly.

Anybody out there actually making mid-drives that do that?

Also anyone know why they can't just put a torque sensor inside the hub motor? It's not like it lacks an input shaft!

 

[m@Robertson]

much less why would you want to neuter the power output of the bike?

So you don't ghost pedal. So you can pedal and still require strength exercise. So you can continue to stuff your face with a cheeseburger and work it off with a bike ride.

Adjustments to pedal assist do not necessarily affect overall controller output. On a Bafang mid drive you still have the throttle available at full blast if you desire full power.

The Sondors bikes have assist-only settings as well on their hub motor bikes. KT controllers not so much but they do have an assist increment that either dials down or dials up the difference between the assist levels.

 

[AHicks]

It is faster off the line as I said and will maintain an average speed of 30mph on level ground but not without the help of the high gear ratio's available through the Schlumpf. In OD it has the equivalent of a 60t chainring so you can really put power into the pedals to help stay with the motor.

None of the Ludi stuff for me. UART tuned to 52v/25A/1300w for the Z1 and the road bike is 52v/20A/1040w. You are certainly welcome to not agree with my methods but I am not trying to sell you anything, just sharing my experience.

Actually the front wheel weight is pretty much a non sequitur as it can easily be lifted to avoid obstacles and for a DD motor the Grin is as light as a geared hub motor. What I find is the bike is pretty balanced with some weight on the front the battery in the middle and my weight biased towards the rear. Al suggests that I must spin out alot but also haven't found that to be the case as long as I keep my weight distributed properly. Only time it will spin is on a steep loose climb during the dead spot in my amateur spin. Never has ever felt out of control. But I do tend to ride it mainly in 500w mode most of the time to increase range and have been riding bikes, as well as moto's, for many years.

Sorry if that's the way I came across. What I meant is exactly the opposite, that I would think the DD should have better traction. Don't be shy to tell me that's wrong... -Al

 

[AHicks]

Also anyone know why they can't just put a torque sensor inside the hub motor? It's not like it lacks an input shaft!

I think all of the mid drives carry the torque sensor inside. I KNOW the Bafang's do.

Regarding the planetary trannies, have you checked out the NuVinci/Enviolo? Bonus if going that route is to scrap the chain and go belt driven.

For examples, maybe check out the Evelo line up....

 

[m@Robertson]

I can't imagine all the weight in the front wheel , taking sharp turns and the bike appears to be light.

If you ride one you'll find its nothing. This is one of those deals where on paper, its a problem. An obvious one when you can have a learned opinion telling you about unsprung weight, traction on a wheel with lighter pressure on the ground and so on. Ride one though, and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

I have been doing awd 2-motor bikes with front hubs for years and all that handling stuff is just nonexistent. The powered front wheel helps you through turns and it takes about two turns to figure out how to treat it a little differently (short version: lift on the throttle or stop pedaling just prior to turn entry, get back on it no later than turn apex). I had my first experience with a front-wheel-only hub motor over the summer and I was amazed at how well it worked. Again zero issues with ... well, anything. And I really appreciated the ability to put power down thru the pedals with the 2wd component that is the aforementioned benefit being there for me as well. If I was trying to ride singletrack maybe I would have a different opinion but on city streets it was only a benefit.

 

[Captain Slow]

I've owned both hub and mid-drive. One of the hub drives I've owned was a Juiced CCS. I didn't notice that one type of motor was zippier than the other.

I think a lot of factors can affect this perception. I ride more miles on non-motorized bikes than on motorized, so when I do ride with assist I put it at the lowest level. Maybe that impacts the feeling of "zippiness".

If you think hub drive is zippier then I'm guessing that's what you prefer and what you should buy regardless of what others think.

 

[mschwett]

…
Though I'd love to see a single speed drivetrain on a mid-drive with a planetary tranny between the pedals and motor. Pedals to tranny to motor to chainring. You'd have a more robust chain, no fiddly derailleur, etc. etm. Put all the complicated bits -- ALL OF IT -- in the drive assembly.

Anybody out there actually making mid-drives that do that?

the interesting thing of course is that the mid drive motor is already geared, but in the opposite direction from the pedals. your typical on-road bike ranges from 5 rotations of the wheel for each pedal rotation to 1 rotation of the wheel for each pedal rotation. i believe most mid drive motors are around 5 to 10 motor turns per wheel turn. i wonder if any of the components could be shared between those two systems/needs while still maintaining a complete disconnection of the pedals from the motor when unpowered, to avoid drag.

i like the idea of a mid-mounted combo motor/gearbox totally sealed up with everything else just a conventional bike.

i’ve been thinking about building a commuter with a pinion gearbox, belt, and rear hub motor. sort of the opposite of the more common mid-drive motto with a belt and hub transmission.

 

[AHicks]

I've owned both hub and mid-drive. One of the hub drives I've owned was a Juiced CCS. I didn't notice that one type of motor was zippier than the other.

I think a lot of factors can affect this perception. I ride more miles on non-motorized bikes than on motorized, so when I do ride with assist I put it at the lowest level. Maybe that impacts the feeling of "zippiness".

If you think hub drive is zippier then I'm guessing that's what you prefer and what you should buy regardless of what others think.

Because I believe the geared hub is zippier, does not mean I think it's better, or that it's my preference. I think it's better at being "zippy". If "zippy" was the only attribute I was looking for from my bike, THEN I would buy zippy. Not sure about your thoughts, but I think there might be a little more to a bike than the fact it's zippy. The list of reasons that might be true is pretty lengthy....

This zippy question in our topic "Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors" is what I was working on. Had nothing to do with my preferences. I own and ride both, and am of the firm belief each is better at certain things. From there it's about compromises, which features are more important to YOU!

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

I'm building a triple hub with mid drive , just because. This will end all debates. 2 hub motors up front , one in the rear and a mid drive.

 

[Ken M]

To add some confusion, as if there wasn't already enough

That motor @JRA is using up front is a hub motor for sure, but it's not like what a lot of us are thinking of when we say hub motor. There are 2 different types of hub motors. Gear driven, with their 5:1 gears built into the hub, and there are direct drive hubs (without gear reduction), like the one shown on JRA's bike.

Again, there are (a lot of) compromises in play when deciding which might fit your application better. Without writing a book on the topic, MY opinion is that on typical 48-52v, a direct drive hub is not going to be nearly as "peppy" as a geared hub - until they're both up over 10mph. The Direct drive motors start getting pretty efficient at 15mph+, which is where the geared hubs are starting to run out of breath.....

THEN, you add the fact that the direct drive motor has better heat dissipation. The big side covers actually help dissipate built up heat. The geared hub motor, buried inside the much smaller case with NO air circulation doesn't have a chance in comparison. Who cares? The guys that want to go REALLY fast that can put 72v+ volt batteries on them (e-motorcycles), and the guys that are commuting longer distances as fast as they can.

My vote, regarding "zippy" would be geared hub. In JRA's case, he might not want a "zippy" motor up front like that. My guess is he's just looking for a little boost - boost that won't easily loose traction.

I agree with your technical information that geared hubs will be more "zippy" feeling up to say 10mph and then direct drive hubs start to hit their strides. Obviously this is not idea for mtn bikes but for urban mobility it's where riders will spend most of their riding time. I want to add that we humans are pretty efficient at getting a bike up to 10mph so I would not consider the low speed lower effectiveness of a direct drive motor to be a significant issue at all ... unless you like riding around at slow speeds and some do.