Archon X1 Programming Thread (questions and experiences)

[egi1000]

Doesn't say that. Say's WW has a controller backed by Bafang.
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WW's cutting edge, things can get dicey not for the faint of heart. lol.
Look what innotrace et al just did to them? Partied it up with our up-grade money, then squabbled, 'scorched earthed' the customers - and this dufus has the gall to announce Watt Wagons customers must ask Watt Wagons (the company he burned) for [your money or] updates.
I'd sooner trust WW by a mile. Why? Debts are not assignable in the USA. Only assets.
Watt Wagons contracted for an asset and they returned a debt - of their own making.
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I ordered from WW after they'd discontinued the Titanium Cross Tour hardtails.
Then, COVID reeked havoc and trade was insane; no shipping containers; PRC locked down, etc.
Took a year, but WW somehow located a 'small' frame. Ordered high-end parts, but to expedite the matter I agreed for them to 'do it as you like' with what's available to get rolling ASAP. We agreed they knew the best path and had the resources.
Unconstrained, the build took a week and they hooked me up - high-end components on a fattie w/ 4" Gum-walls, unique and beautifully retro.
My firm impressions: Ordering on the 'soon come' is a risk, but if it can be done these are people that'll do it.
Not terribly sympathetic for those that won't go there, fearing risk/ failure and having to obtain a refund - after I took a much bigger risk, preordered, paid, waited and WW pulled it off.
FS bikes don't fit my use, but the new, alloy version is better than Gen 1's CF frames. Just my opine there.
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They have a contact-us address and I'm sure will answer your questions.
I'll cosign they've been a good company to me.

I had same thoughts before hacked x1tool tried to update my controller. meanwhile I contacted the developer what to do with my firmware update message. guess what: he told me that this x1tool version can't update any firmare online at all. this confirmed my suspicion.
so trusting WW would be possible only under one aspect:
developer provided all necessary tools and I guess also sources for xt1tool to his salesman rico.
if I understood correctly this salesman made all business with WW.
WW needed updates to justify the subsciption.
so best case for WW: x1tool was modded by salesman (or someone in his environment) to write fake firmware versions and WW did know nothing.

 

[W2Yn]

It might. The program might use that value to calculate how aggressively to reduce the power when the battery voltage is close to the cutoff level. Bigger capacity battery allows more power drain at lover voltage level while smaller capacity battery requires more aggressive power reduction at cutoff voltage level of the battery to prevent earlier buttery cut off while it still has some juice or to prevent the BMS turning the battery down because of the voltage can drop too low under too much power at lower voltage level.

Krasnodar is probably the only one who knows how accurate that program calculates the low voltage power reduction based on the battery capacity value and how it affects the battery behavior when the battery starts aging. Maybe there is a reason Innotrace does not ask anyone what the battery capacity they have when people order the motor and sets it to 14Ah for everybody and maybe it is better do not touch it.

Thanks. I guess I better not play around too much with that then. When the battery is around 42V it still gives me a good 1000W (it is set to 42V beginning of cut-off and 39V end of cut-off). I'm absolutely fine with that. Actually seems pretty aggressive still to me as that's where my DPC18 display already shows me a value around 0% there.

 

[TPEHAK]

They set cut off voltage on the motor slightly lower than 0% on display to make sure you won't be in situation when your display gauge still shows some juice but the motor suddenly turns off.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I had same thoughts before hacked x1tool tried to update my controller. meanwhile I contacted the developer what to do with my firmware update message. guess what: he told me that this x1tool version can't update any firmare online at all. this confirmed my suspicion.
so trusting WW would be possible only under one aspect:
developer provided all necessary tools and I guess also sources for xt1tool to his salesman rico.
if I understood correctly this salesman made all business with WW.
WW needed updates to justify the subsciption.
so best case for WW: x1tool was modded by salesman (or someone in his environment) to write fake firmware versions and WW did know nothing.

A company owned, 50/ 50 by two people. Company's a separate entity. One owner disengages, shut down access to company property, the other continues to 'service' the already paid for service and write (company) authentic firmware.
This has been going on since April 2022 - that I know of - innotrace (both owners) received the cash before that time.
WW's in for the long haul building custom bikes had purchased the controllers (still have some in fact) and the software (initial set-up was certainly part of the deal) that was incapable of updating the firmware because nobody's been able to get to the server, so neither can WW customers.
Perhaps innotrace the company trying to keep up with legal obligations and orders may have engaged someone to provide services previously paid for, now being activated for the previously sold controllers. That would not explain the "firmware updates".
Another possibility is WW was sold the actual tuning software for x many uses and after one innotrace partner left, used them on X1 powered machines. I'd be buying in bulk if I was them, but that would not explain the "firmware updates".
If what I hear is true, damning for K is he left after there were no more chips for the controllers - and that production has never come back.
A trade/ tariff issue seems likely.
End result, he took in cash for support of those products - representing himself as the company.
My X1 order, including support was paid for in October of 2021, but is not yet activated.
Wouldn't using a hacked program overwrite and assign it's new firmware updates ?

It's all for the good. People like yourself will continue to circumvent obstacles and resolve problems all the more.
Really excellent of you to post it.

Fn'F

 

[rtp]

Wouldn't using a hacked program overwrite and assign it's new firmware updates ?

Probably not. The way this usually works is the client app/software auths to an update server and checks if there are any updates available. If so, depending on the update scheme (auto-update vs notify user, or even do nothing unless user requests and update status check), it would apply any claimed update. For the most part, software updates generally use simple metadata associated like a version #, e.g. 1.10.10 is > 1.1.09, along with a checksum or hash or digital signature to ensure the package is ‘valid and real.’ There is likely little that would prevent someone from ‘faking’ newer updates by just incrementing a version number in the package metadata used for update version checks, while it’s possible the software itself uses an embedded version within the binary itself… which could have led to the ‘invalid firmware’/garbage text conceivably, e.g. someone incremented the version in the metadata and maybe tried unsuccessfully to patch the binary without a proper build, stomping on the internally used version with <garbage>. It’s probably no net difference to the end user.

Now, the ‘hacked’ X1 tool, AFAIK, is just like the Besst tool workaround, meaning it bypasses the need to connect to the server in order to operate, with an additional change now being made to also unlock ‘privileged mode’(the added tab). As there remains no server/service connectivity, there is no path to get an actual firmware update, short of x1 tool having an embedded single <latest and time of tool build> firmware package within itself. I believe the VESC app actually does this, although I’m not positive if it’s just metadata for the firmware variants it’s aware of (e.g. the Luna Ludi v2 controller) and then can download it, or if it’s fully embedded in the package.

Regardless, as far as I’ve seen and what seems to have been confirmed, there haven’t been any real notable firmware updates for the Innotrace/Archon. Personally, I’d ignore any/all updates at this point whether it’s from the hacked X1Tool, or even if the Innotrace server comes online, without very very specific details as to what the ‘update’ is claiming to do. It’s possibly any ‘update available’ from hacked X1Tool is just based on a simple timer (e.g. installed firmware is > 6 months old), or a minor logic bug (e.g. can’t connect to server for X time, must have incompatible/old firmware, and I’d ignore it altogether until things settle out.

Why? Let’s assume after this massive crap show that <someone> decides to get greedy. That <someone> brings the service back online, and spins an
‘updated’ firmware. That <someone> decides the try to wring ‘free money’ out of a bad situation, so sets the new firmware to effectively brick itself or reduce max power to 250W (or 5W or 1000W, whatever) if it hasn’t contacted the server within N months, and confirmed if someone’s ‘subscription for updates’ is still active. Now you’ve become an unwilling, captive ‘customer’ with no choice but to pay for ongoing ‘updates’ even if those updates offer net zero benefit to you, the consumer.

None of this ‘should’ happen, but considering how sketchy this whole situation seems, I would be careful about any firmware updates short of if required to unbrick a controller for some time to come until this mess settles itself out for a while. YMMV, blah blah…

 

[TPEHAK]

Isn't 3000W option one time purchase? I have to pay for this option periodically?

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Everything you say rings true to me and I couldn't agree more with your conclusions.
Put bluntly: NOT circumventing innotrace risks permanent damage to ALL X1 controllers.
History's correct, sticking with this company, et al, it'll happen again - in some guise.
So, for me this is a win. Now, off the merry-go-round I can be in control.
Just as I waited a year for my bike and seven months later I'm happy as a clam, so I am at the result of this waiting.
I learned the ins-and-outs of what I face, the alternatives and increased my competence.
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This thread derailed the (justifiably) negative, with positive solutions and unmitigated Problem Solving and completely changed my (pre-programmed/ ignorant) outlook while the Learned, Learning, even the Barely Comprehending participated without dissention.

ALL with skin-in-the-game benefited. the outcome is properly equitable and correct.

That I'm beholden to the participants is not a platitude. It's a recognition.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Thanks. I guess I better not play around too much with that then. When the battery is around 42V it still gives me a good 1000W (it is set to 42V beginning of cut-off and 39V end of cut-off). I'm absolutely fine with that. Actually seems pretty aggressive still to me as that's where my DPC18 display already shows me a value around 0% there.

I use 'v', not '%'.
Not sure if you'er 52v, but here's the charts.
Using the 52v chart: Going below 46v -- 42.8v can brick the battery - esp. if one does not recharge immediately - when a slightly low 'v' (inevitable) cell continues to draw power down even sitting and the BMS tries to balance the series.
(Resident Electrician Member) Greeno described the effect, I'm paraphrasing but I see it and stay conservative, promptly recharging @ 46v.
He made real sense to me. Does your bike lose some power just sitting a few days? Mine does.
There are methods (I've seen posted, not demonstrated) where the BMS can be 'sparked' back to life. Must work or a lot of complaints would be screaming.
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If you do the math on the top end charge, a lot of this '80% is best' concept evaporates.
Off the top, you should get 20% more charges. Duh. I'd hope so. @ a 20 -30% range reduction.
I do try and go for a long ride after fully charging, but see zero reasoning behind why I should, when it doesn't add up to more than a 2% overall lifetime gain in battery use, and by the time cells start going bad I'm switching to (Lighter. Stronger. Faster) 21700's anyway.

52V 48v

 

[anlin]

In general reducing peak voltage to 4.0V/cell (a bit over 80% in your charts) instead of 4.2V/cell (100%) will give you 300% "more charges" (ie. 4x the cycle life), not 20%. Whether the max capacity tradeoff for cycle life is worth it is up to you of course. Charging at 46V instead of running the battery all the way down limits the depth of discharge which is good for the battery but also limits the amount of useable energy.

I charge my batteries to 80% for shorter trips/daily use and only go to 100% when I need the range - that way you get the best of both worlds

More reading: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

The X1 controller will reduce max power below a set voltage threshold to increase range and protect the battery, so you should set the correct battery configuration if you can (or get Krasnodar to do it if you can't)

 

[W2Yn]

I use 'v', not '%'.
Not sure if you'er 52v, but here's the charts.
Using the 52v chart: Going below 46v -- 42.8v can brick the battery - esp. if one does not recharge immediately - when a slightly low 'v' (inevitable) cell continues to draw power down even sitting and the BMS tries to balance the series.
(Resident Electrician Member) Greeno described the effect, I'm paraphrasing but I see it and stay conservative, promptly recharging @ 46v.
He made real sense to me. Does your bike lose some power just sitting a few days? Mine does.
There are methods (I've seen posted, not demonstrated) where the BMS can be 'sparked' back to life. Must work or a lot of complaints would be screaming.
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If you do the math on the top end charge, a lot of this '80% is best' concept evaporates.
Off the top, you should get 20% more charges. Duh. I'd hope so. @ a 20 -30% range reduction.
I do try and go for a long ride after fully charging, but see zero reasoning behind why I should, when it doesn't add up to more than a 2% overall lifetime gain in battery use, and by the time cells start going bad I'm switching to (Lighter. Stronger. Faster) 21700's anyway.

View attachment 153588 View attachment 153589

52V 48v

I'm 48V...
As anlin already said: there's a difference between 'charges' and 'cycles'. Charging from 20% to 80% is one charge, but only 0.6 cycles.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

WattWagons new motors and programming page indicates some changes. I also saw something in passing that WW has an 'X2' replacing the X1.

 

[TPEHAK]

the additional current will not add any max speed, but only torque and therefore the ability to reach max speed faster.

The max speed is determined by the voltage, the field weakening (not configurable with the X1tool) and the choice of the transmission.

Hey evixone, what plug is on your M620 motor and does your M620 motor have original power wires or thicker gauge wires for your 100A setup? When I ordered my 3000W Innotrace X1 motor I additionally purchased XT60 plug option from them but they sent me M620 motor with stock wires and stock plug.

I soldered XT90 plug on my motor wires but I did not change the original wiring on the M620 motor. And the original wires look like maybe 12AWG while all 60A BMS go with 10AWG wires and 80A BMS go with 2x10AWG wires on each side. I am afraid I will burn those original 12AWG wires with 60A power.

I almost finished my 80A 52V custom battery and you can see my 80A BMS has two of 10AWG on input and output. I connected each pole of the battery to 3x12AWG wires. And the motor has just one 12AWG wire on each pole. Basically I can feed those 12AWG wires on the motor with three times more power then it is probably capable of. Is it going to be an issue?

 

[evixone]

So I have the original wiring between the motor and the controller, but from the controller to the battery I have 10 awg.
Given the length of the wiring, there won't be any problem with 12 awg for 60A continuous.
If the wiring measured 50cm or more, it would indeed start to pose a problem.
But the shorter the cable, the less its diameter affects the heat.
You can easily run 300A on 12awg if it measures 1cm.

 

[TPEHAK]

Finally I have finished my 80A 52V battery! The motor works! Now I have access to 3000W! It is a monster!

The full report with details is here

TQFreak's Dengfu E55 Build Thread

Thank you Guys for such precise assembly details. I also thing about building by myself bike using E55 frame and have just ordered motor. Searching for info regarding E55 I noticed one element that is not in your intructions/photos. It’s something like plate (metal? plastic?), an element that is...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Innotrace was selling 'subscriptions' for 'updates'.

Isn't 3000W option one time purchase? I have to pay for this option periodically?

 

[Foxhound68]

Watt wagons sent me a cord finally which is nice ! They also don't care at all if you use the hacked software programmer.

 

[dedo]

Something I found out during converting a different FTDI-programmer I had laying around: There are fake ones, whos "Product Description" can't be changed using FT_Prog. They mostly have A50285BI or 00000000 as Serial Number. See:

• https://www.voltlog.com/tag/ft232-a50285bi/
• https://www.sevarg.net/2017/03/04/fixing-fake-ftdi-ft232rl-adapters-ssop/

Be aware, before you buy!

---

This is an original X1 programming cable. They used some kind of epoxy and tried to cover, that it's basically an WaveShare FT232 USB UART Board (micro) for $6.99.. And we paid $90 for a cable?!

 

[Matthias76]

It is not hard. You just need the bypassed X1 Tool from here https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ions-and-experiences.40034/page-8#post-596912

And a FTDI FT232R USB to serial adapter https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ions-and-experiences.40034/page-9#post-597829

Detailed pictures how to deal with the adapter https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ons-and-experiences.40034/page-10#post-599002

How to connect https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ons-and-experiences.40034/page-11#post-599055

How to setup the settings

You will have access to the same settings as all the users with regular account when the X1 Tool server was working

Hi TPEHAK
Unfortunately, the post from evixon with the bypassed X1 tool is no longer available. Could you make the X1 tool accessible again with access to advanced settings? I need to calibrate my M620 as I had to replace the rotor. Kind regards Matthias

 

[TPEHAK]

Hi TPEHAK
Unfortunately, the post from evixon with the bypassed X1 tool is no longer available. Could you make the X1 tool accessible again with access to advanced settings? I need to calibrate my M620 as I had to replace the rotor. Kind regards Matthias

Hello, did you try to contact Krasnodar first for assistance? I would contact him first. Maybe ask him when he is planning to make the online server available again (he promised to make it available soon some time ago).

If he does not respond here is the link for the bypassed tool with advanced settings

1.0.10 assist+display+motor+controller.zip

drive.google.com

 

[jhfifjseh]

Hello
Many many many thanks for your help !!!!
I would have to reinitialize my engine since the purchase or controller change, unfortunately I have no contact with Innotrace can build.
Now I was able to do it and can also do a revision from the engine and replace the grease, this is also already overdue.

Without your help, I probably would have had to reinstall the original controller or hope for the new G530 and buy a new motor.


Greetings