Archon X1 Programming Thread (questions and experiences)

[TPEHAK]

Wow. Thank you for you effort! I guess Innotrace got what they wanted. I hope Krasnodar will clarify what is the difference between using this tool and the one is assigned to the server.

I can't wait the new battery components to see how strong can pull this bad boy!

By the way, how does this feel at 100A current? What is the maximum speed you were able to achieve?

 

[evixone]

the additional current will not add any max speed, but only torque and therefore the ability to reach max speed faster.

The max speed is determined by the voltage, the field weakening (not configurable with the X1tool) and the choice of the transmission.

 

[Foxhound68]

Hi everyone,
after many many hours analyzing the X1tool I finally managed to unlock the advanced features.

You can now set the max power to 3500w and the motor current to 100A.

Be careful with the settings, the motor as well as the transmission elements will be used harder.

For the battery current setting you need to know the continuous current it can give.

In the Controller tab you have the "detect encoder" function in order to recalibrate the Hall sensor and the magnet, to touch only in case of complete disassembly of the motor.

Enjoy!

(Run X1TOOL.exe)

Really cool dude thanks for the hard work ! Bike communities are amazing .

 

[TPEHAK]

If for some reason you are going to calibrate the hall sensor position make sure the motor is disconnected from the chain and there are no objects on the way of the crank arms because of the motor will jerk during this process.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Hi everyone,
after many many hours analyzing the X1tool I finally managed to unlock the advanced features.

You can now set the max power to 3500w and the motor current to 100A.

Be careful with the settings, the motor as well as the transmission elements will be used harder.

For the battery current setting you need to know the continuous current it can give.

In the Controller tab you have the "detect encoder" function in order to recalibrate the Hall sensor and the magnet, to touch only in case of complete disassembly of the motor.

Enjoy!

(Run X1TOOL.exe)

 

[TPEHAK]

Bafang is going to release new M630 motor with 250 NM torque. I believe this is about the torque of 3000W Innotrace. M630 has same mounting interface as M620 so I guess it is almost direct replacenent

Bafang M630 Thread

Fresh off the press and unveiled at the 2023 Shanghai Cycle Show The "M620 Killer!!", kicking out 250NM of peak torque. Surely, no drivetrain is designed for a motor like this!? ......oh!!!! Well, I guess it was inevitable that Bafang would capitalise on building another powerful motor. And...

www.emtbforums.com

I'm wondering if Innotrace is planning to develop a controller for M630 and maybe that thing can probably go up to 6000W and 120A or so without shredding the motor gearbox and burning the coils?

 

[Foxhound68]

Bafang is going to release new M630 motor with 250 NM torque. I believe this is about the torque of 3000W Innotrace. M630 has same mounting interface as M620 so I guess it is almost direct replacenent

Bafang M630 Thread

Fresh off the press and unveiled at the 2023 Shanghai Cycle Show The "M620 Killer!!", kicking out 250NM of peak torque. Surely, no drivetrain is designed for a motor like this!? ......oh!!!! Well, I guess it was inevitable that Bafang would capitalise on building another powerful motor. And...

www.emtbforums.com

I'm wondering if Innotrace is planning to develop a controller for M630 and maybe that thing can probably go up to 6000W and 120A or so without shredding the motor gearbox and burning the coils?

I wouldn't expect much from innotrace for awhile with all the issues there having !

 

[TomD]

Yeah innotrace is dead, put a fork in them and thankfully it seems nobody will need to suck up to kissmyassnomore and his lame attempt to monetize the situation.

 

[dedo]

maybe that thing can probably go up to 6000W and 120A or so without shredding the motor gearbox and burning the coils?

Highly doubt that's physically possible, since the rear shifting has always been an issue! No cassette nor internal hub is capable enough to withstand your rating. However the new enhanced parts (like stator and gearbox) for the M630 could be used to upgrade M620 X1 motors, which increases their durability.

I also think it's over with Innotrace. From my experience Rico is still reachable, but it's not possible to buy parts anymore..

 

[rtp]

This all doesn't make sense. I don't quite get it. Why would some FW be "hacked" or "from unknown source" and the other not? How big was Innotrace even? Somebody told me recently that it was only Rico and Krasnodar, which can be looked up online:
View attachment 153241

Eh. Very easy for the server to be up, but if someone truncated the database, deleted services required for app operation, etc. the server is up but the service/app is unusable.

I know that Rico was mainly for sales and managing orders. He also did aftersales-support a few times for me and answered questions.. He seemed always busy and behind shipping orders.. I highly doubt he was capable to develop his own "hacked" firmware without telling the co-CEO Krasnodar about it, who's responsible for the technical part in first place?! In fact, in a GmbH-company this would be illegal. From whom was this FW, if not from Krasnodar the "developer of Innotrace"?

The FWs about which Krasnodar states they are "illegal" or "from unknown source" do match with the versioning of past versions! Maybe the fuzzy serial- and controller-numbers from TPEHAK in #225 are from the not responding backend server, but why was their server pingable the whole time? I traced the HTTPS-calls and regularly pinged the server www.xembedded.de, since it has been seemingly hacked in January.

View attachment 153239

And why is Krasnodar avoiding answering the question, when he will enable the servers again? Or providing evidence against the elephant in the room: Whether he uses VESC or not?

There's no telling but there's more to unravel really:
1. Who actually designed the controller itself? Could very well be Krasnodar, could be <someone else at Inno>, could be joint, or it could be a VESC design altered to fit the Ultra controller board size/shape.
2. Who developed the firmware?
3. Who developed the supporting software?

It's possible the answer to all 3 of these are Krasnodar, or anyone else. If it was Kransnodar for all 3 questions, well, Innotrace options moving forward are limited, unless they e.g. hire Vedder to make replacement firmware, and someone to handle the service/software/app, etc.


"It all depends" - on the answers to the above. Even in worst case, Innotrace could continue controller sales as long as they get someone to handle the software, has the legal ability to open source it, or has Vedder or someone make viable software available to users.

 

[egi1000]

This all doesn't make sense. I don't quite get it. Why would some FW be "hacked" or "from unknown source" and the other not? How big was Innotrace even? Somebody told me recently that it was only Rico and Krasnodar, which can be looked up online:
View attachment 153241

I know that Rico was mainly for sales and managing orders. He also did aftersales-support a few times for me and answered questions.. He seemed always busy and behind shipping orders.. I highly doubt he was capable to develop his own "hacked" firmware without telling the co-CEO Krasnodar about it, who's responsible for the technical part in first place?! In fact, in a GmbH-company this would be illegal. From whom was this FW, if not from Krasnodar the "developer of Innotrace"?

The FWs about which Krasnodar states they are "illegal" or "from unknown source" do match with the versioning of past versions! Maybe the fuzzy serial- and controller-numbers from TPEHAK in #225 are from the not responding backend server, but why was their server pingable the whole time? I traced the HTTPS-calls and regularly pinged the server www.xembedded.de, since it has been seemingly hacked in January.

View attachment 153239

And why is Krasnodar avoiding answering the question, when he will enable the servers again? Or providing evidence against the elephant in the room: Whether he uses VESC or not?

so in fact there is Innotrace = developer (krasnodor) and sales (rico). but there is also WW with an expensive subscription service for Innotrace controllers, e.g. for firmware updates.
developer says there is only one firmware. but I have seen different firmwares (2.4.12.2, 2.4.13.2, 2.4.14.2, 2.4.6.2) - all unknown to the developer. but if developer is right then each customer who bought an expensive subscription is really unhappy because there is and was only one firmware and of course in that case there are no firmware updates.
so why not making these guys happy and change x1tool to write fake firmware versions to the controller from time to time ?
even my hacked x1tool wants to update firmware - without any server that could deliver any firmware because server is down. what a great service !!!
but good news: so in fact we all might same firmware version, regardless what the x1tool says

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Bafang is going to release new M630 motor with 250 NM torque. I believe this is about the torque of 3000W Innotrace. M630 has same mounting interface as M620 so I guess it is almost direct replacenent

Bafang M630 Thread

Fresh off the press and unveiled at the 2023 Shanghai Cycle Show The "M620 Killer!!", kicking out 250NM of peak torque. Surely, no drivetrain is designed for a motor like this!? ......oh!!!! Well, I guess it was inevitable that Bafang would capitalise on building another powerful motor. And...

www.emtbforums.com

I'm wondering if Innotrace is planning to develop a controller for M630 and maybe that thing can probably go up to 6000W and 120A or so without shredding the motor gearbox and burning the coils?

WW's 2300Watt X1 M620 = 230Nm. 3000Watt X1 M620 (reputed to be) = 300Nm.
Big question's a reliable drivetrain.
Bafang's (matching) 5sp Automatic IGH the only thing rated, weighs 3.7kilos. Compared to K'nay XIV = 2kilos; Entire Shimano 11sp = .8 kilo.
The M620 = 6.7kilos. M560 = 3.3kilos
This adds up to a bit of weight over an M560 (with upgraded components in the controller) that'll crank 200Nm.
A 60lb bike becomes a 74lb bike.
Bafang's'Cargo/ Pedicab' looks like the real market intent and they've hit a home run.
In Asia, Africa, Central and South America, they've cornered both the power required and (mandatory) transmission segments of the only game in town for most commercial uses.

Thanks for the update.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

so in fact there is Innotrace = developer (krasnodor) and sales (rico). but there is also WW with an expensive subscription service for Innotrace controllers, e.g. for firmware updates.
developer says there is only one firmware. but I have seen different firmwares (2.4.12.2, 2.4.13.2, 2.4.14.2, 2.4.6.2) - all unknown to the developer. but if developer is right then each customer who bought an expensive subscription is really unhappy because there is and was only one firmware and of course in that case there are no firmware updates.
so why not making these guys happy and change x1tool to write fake firmware versions to the controller from time to time ?
even my hacked x1tool wants to update firmware - without any server that could deliver any firmware because server is down. what a great service !!!
but good news: so in fact we all might same firmware version, regardless what the x1tool says

5/4/23 I received an email from Watt Wagons
...
Innotrace, X1, and Bafang Motors

1. All new orders with Bafang Ultra (M620) motor will be equipped with a new Watt Wagons controller, backed by Bafang. This is a CAN controller, with 2000W nominal and 2300W peak. We have also updated our motors with upgraded synthetic grease that improves internal thermal stability and mechanical reliability. The new controller can be programmed using Bafang app over Bluetooth, and will NOT require any other proprietary communication cables.
2. Innotrace and X1 - given the current ambiguity with Innotrace, we will pause providing that as a motor option on our ebikes. We have an existing inventory of the X1 controllers that we will continue to offer as upgrades for M620 UART motors. These will be configurable with an existing community-sourced X1 config tool. Krasnodar from Innotrace has advised us that he will release updated firmware and software. Once we hear from Krasnodar, we will make those available to the community immediately.
3. For existing X1 customers awaiting programming cables, we will be able to start shipping them this week.

 

[TPEHAK]

So Bafang makes a special controller for Watt Wagons for M620 which is programmed to 2000W nominal and 2300W peak from factory? Why they did not do this before? Is Watt Wagons the only one who is going to distribute bikes with such motors? Are they planning to sale these motors as individual units?

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Doesn't say that. Say's WW has a controller backed by Bafang.
-
WW's cutting edge, things can get dicey not for the faint of heart. lol.
Look what innotrace et al just did to them? Partied it up with our up-grade money, then squabbled, 'scorched earthed' the customers - and this dufus has the gall to announce Watt Wagons customers must ask Watt Wagons (the company he burned) for [your money or] updates.
I'd sooner trust WW by a mile. Why? Debts are not assignable in the USA. Only assets.
Watt Wagons contracted for an asset and they returned a debt - of their own making.
-
I ordered from WW after they'd discontinued the Titanium Cross Tour hardtails.
Then, COVID reeked havoc and trade was insane; no shipping containers; PRC locked down, etc.
Took a year, but WW somehow located a 'small' frame. Ordered high-end parts, but to expedite the matter I agreed for them to 'do it as you like' with what's available to get rolling ASAP. We agreed they knew the best path and had the resources.
Unconstrained, the build took a week and they hooked me up - high-end components on a fattie w/ 4" Gum-walls, unique and beautifully retro.
My firm impressions: Ordering on the 'soon come' is a risk, but if it can be done these are people that'll do it.
Not terribly sympathetic for those that won't go there, fearing risk/ failure and having to obtain a refund - after I took a much bigger risk, preordered, paid, waited and WW pulled it off.
FS bikes don't fit my use, but the new, alloy version is better than Gen 1's CF frames. Just my opine there.
-
They have a contact-us address and I'm sure will answer your questions.
I'll cosign they've been a good company to me.

 

[W2Yn]

Hi everyone,
after many many hours analyzing the X1tool I finally managed to unlock the advanced features.

You can now set the max power to 3500w and the motor current to 100A.

Be careful with the settings, the motor as well as the transmission elements will be used harder.

For the battery current setting you need to know the continuous current it can give.

In the Controller tab you have the "detect encoder" function in order to recalibrate the Hall sensor and the magnet, to touch only in case of complete disassembly of the motor.

Enjoy!

(Run X1TOOL.exe)

Does anyone know if it makes a difference to correct the value of the battery capacity? I have a 48V 875Wh battery (18.2Ah ?) but in one of those advanced tabs it says 14Ah.

 

[TPEHAK]

Does anyone know if it makes a difference to correct the value of the battery capacity? I have a 48V 875Wh battery (18.2Ah ?) but in one of those advanced tabs it says 14Ah.

It might. The program might use that value to calculate how aggressively to reduce the power when the battery voltage is close to the cutoff level. Bigger capacity battery allows more power drain at lover voltage level while smaller capacity battery requires more aggressive power reduction at cutoff voltage level of the battery to prevent earlier buttery cut off while it still has some juice or to prevent the BMS turning the battery down because of the voltage can drop too low under too much power at lower voltage level.

Krasnodar is probably the only one who knows how accurate that program calculates the low voltage power reduction based on the battery capacity value and how it affects the battery behavior when the battery starts aging. Maybe there is a reason Innotrace does not ask anyone what the battery capacity they have when people order the motor and sets it to 14Ah for everybody and maybe it is better do not touch it.

 

[egi1000]

Doesn't say that. Say's WW has a controller backed by Bafang.
-
WW's cutting edge, things can get dicey not for the faint of heart. lol.
Look what innotrace et al just did to them? Partied it up with our up-grade money, then squabbled, 'scorched earthed' the customers - and this dufus has the gall to announce Watt Wagons customers must ask Watt Wagons (the company he burned) for [your money or] updates.
I'd sooner trust WW by a mile. Why? Debts are not assignable in the USA. Only assets.
Watt Wagons contracted for an asset and they returned a debt - of their own making.
-
I ordered from WW after they'd discontinued the Titanium Cross Tour hardtails.
Then, COVID reeked havoc and trade was insane; no shipping containers; PRC locked down, etc.
Took a year, but WW somehow located a 'small' frame. Ordered high-end parts, but to expedite the matter I agreed for them to 'do it as you like' with what's available to get rolling ASAP. We agreed they knew the best path and had the resources.
Unconstrained, the build took a week and they hooked me up - high-end components on a fattie w/ 4" Gum-walls, unique and beautifully retro.
My firm impressions: Ordering on the 'soon come' is a risk, but if it can be done these are people that'll do it.
Not terribly sympathetic for those that won't go there, fearing risk/ failure and having to obtain a refund - after I took a much bigger risk, preordered, paid, waited and WW pulled it off.
FS bikes don't fit my use, but the new, alloy version is better than Gen 1's CF frames. Just my opine there.
-
They have a contact-us address and I'm sure will answer your questions.
I'll cosign they've been a good company to me.

I had same thoughts before hacked x1tool tried to update my controller. meanwhile I contacted the developer what to do with my firmware update message. guess what: he told me that this x1tool version can't update any firmare online at all. this confirmed my suspicion.
so trusting WW would be possible only under one aspect:
developer provided all necessary tools and I guess also sources for xt1tool to his salesman rico.
if I understood correctly this salesman made all business with WW.
WW needed updates to justify the subsciption.
so best case for WW: x1tool was modded by salesman (or someone in his environment) to write fake firmware versions and WW did know nothing.

 

[W2Yn]

It might. The program might use that value to calculate how aggressively to reduce the power when the battery voltage is close to the cutoff level. Bigger capacity battery allows more power drain at lover voltage level while smaller capacity battery requires more aggressive power reduction at cutoff voltage level of the battery to prevent earlier buttery cut off while it still has some juice or to prevent the BMS turning the battery down because of the voltage can drop too low under too much power at lower voltage level.

Krasnodar is probably the only one who knows how accurate that program calculates the low voltage power reduction based on the battery capacity value and how it affects the battery behavior when the battery starts aging. Maybe there is a reason Innotrace does not ask anyone what the battery capacity they have when people order the motor and sets it to 14Ah for everybody and maybe it is better do not touch it.

Thanks. I guess I better not play around too much with that then. When the battery is around 42V it still gives me a good 1000W (it is set to 42V beginning of cut-off and 39V end of cut-off). I'm absolutely fine with that. Actually seems pretty aggressive still to me as that's where my DPC18 display already shows me a value around 0% there.

 

[TPEHAK]

They set cut off voltage on the motor slightly lower than 0% on display to make sure you won't be in situation when your display gauge still shows some juice but the motor suddenly turns off.