Any interest in a Bosch based Ultimate Commuter Pro ?

I don't know if Propel is just trying to push Bosch motors in this video but it may be one reasons Pushkar is considering:


Although long term serviceability is a factor, in a practical sense, I'm not sure many of us would be riding the same bike for decades where this would become the primary factor. As the video calls out, there will be significant innovations with motors over the long term, so even if a replacement motor would be available, would many of us spend $1000 or more on a replacement when potentially better more efficient motors may be available for less?

Many issues that I've read about with the the so called cheap "Chinese" Bafang motors have been related to nylon gears breaking under load which they have since replaced with steel gears. With a country that has the largest population in the world with the Bafang being the most popular, I doubt that parts or motors would not be available in the foreseeable future.

I do agree that the larger name brand motors do have smoother torque sensing capabilities. Let's hope that Pushkar can program the Bafang to improve on the inherent jerkiness which imo is its biggest con.
 
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Based on some feedback looks like I need to update the settings. Any help is appreciated.

I assume you've been following the Bafang Ultra programming thread in the Biktrix section. Everyone is focused on the Torque or Pedal Settings tabs, but if the complaint is about too much power even in PAS 1, then I think you should probably be in the Basic tab, adjusting the Current Limit% for each of the PAS levels. I don't know what the Watt Wagon settings are. My bike came with a value of 30% in level 1, and lowering that to 15% made a noticeable difference right off the bat. I need to take some longer rides to see how well I like it, but if you're driving the Ultra with a high amperage controller it might make sense to start low and ramp up through the PAS levels.

The other thing I want to play around with are the Start & Full pedal pressure settings (on the Torque tab). By raising the Start pressure you'll get more of a workout. The problem here - for me anyway - is that these settings are not differentiable by PAS level, they're done in crank rpm ranges (6 of them). The good news is that I believe the Min/Max Current % settings are taken from the Current Limit % of the PAS level, so you do more assistance for the same pedal pressure. The bad news is that you can't have one PAS level for high pedal pressure to activate (the "I want a work out" level) and a different PAS level for low pedal pressure to activate.

And, as I posted elsewhere, I'm a bit confused over why the torque settings should change with crank rpm in the first place. The best I can think of that when I'm pedaling quickly I can't be putting that much pressure on the pedals, so lowering the Start/Full pressures will help get more power out of the motor with less pedal pressure when pedaling quickly. The downside is that when climbing hills you need a low enough gear that you can still pedal quickly to get that maximum motor assist. And if you do that, then what about on the flats when you just want to go really really fast? Trying to balance these different Use Cases with a single set of settings is going to be difficult. To bring this back to topic, I think that's why Bosch's "levels" are better, but also why Bosch actually sells different versions of the motor for off-road versus on-road.
 
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Not interested in any motor that doesn't have a throttle, at least for some of us that need one.
Being new to the e-bike game, can you help me understand why one would want a throttle and how you use it in daily life? I've only tested bikes without throttles, so want to understand (especially since I'm leaning towards a WattWagon purchase).
 
Being new to the e-bike game, can you help me understand why one would want a throttle and how you use it in daily life? I've only tested bikes without throttles, so want to understand (especially since I'm leaning towards a WattWagon purchase).

My wife and I started out insisting that our eBikes had throttles. Part of this was as a safety issue, as a way to get going quickly enough when waiting for a break in cross-traffic and then getting going to cross merge-in. Part was also just the convenience of getting going with a heavy bike, especially on an uphill. For a hub-powered bike, it gets you out of jams - some admittingly caused by rider inexperience. For instance, encountering a hill when you're in a too-high gear, the throttle can get the hub motor going while you downshift into an appropriate gear.

This was our experience renting RadPower bikes for a few months (!) while we test rode other bikes to see what we really wanted. I test rode a R&M SuperDelite up a steep hill San Francisco and was surprised how well it did - but I did have to use my analog bike experience to choose the right gear and PAS level (TURBO!) ahead of time, as well as do my fair share of pedaling. I would have liked a throttle, but felt that I could live without it. However, my wife - a less experienced bike rider - had major issues on the R&M Homage, even with the twist shifting Nuvinci IGH. She'd be rolling along in a high-ish gear and not remember to down-shift as she came to a stop at a light. Then when the light changed, she was in a too-high gear and had a tough time getting going - she even had some scary balance instability. The helpful salesperson at the LBS there did take the time to work with her on what to do, but even so, she ended up insisting to me afterwards that her bike had to have a throttle for safety.

Now, throttles are less useful on a mid-drive bike, since the motor power goes through the gearing, and so if you're in the wrong gear and hit the throttle you might end up with the chain skipping or even overheat the motor or otherwise damage the chain/drivetrain. The throttle won't help you out with a mid-drive as simply as it does with a hub-motor. Some mid-drive bikes with throttles don't include throttles on the high power optioned versions. Although, it looks like the Bafang mid-drives have a Throttle setting page that could be used to slow the ramp-up and even limit the total power it can apply. There might be a happy medium there.

We did buy high-power bikes with throttles. Neither my wife nor I ride the throttle for anything other than short-lived specific situations, but we do like having them there. The more we ride the more comfortable my wife gets on her bike and I believe she'll be using the throttle less and less.

TL;DR
If you're testing bikes without throttles doing the kind of riding you expect to do and have to ask why a throttle, you don't need a throttle. They're easy to disconnect and pull off, btw.
 
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My wife and I started out insisting that our eBikes had throttles. Part of this was as a safety issue, as a way to get going quickly enough when waiting for a break in cross-traffic and then getting going to cross merge-in. Part was also just the convenience of getting going with a heavy bike, especially on an uphill. For a hub-powered bike, it gets you out of jams - some admittingly caused by rider inexperience. For instance, encountering a hill when you're in a too-high gear, the throttle can get the hub motor going while you downshift into an appropriate gear.

This was our experience renting RadPower bikes for a few months (!) while we test rode other bikes to see what we really wanted. I test rode a R&M SuperDelite up a steep hill San Francisco and was surprised how well it did - but I did have to use my analog bike experience to choose the right gear and PAS level (TURBO!) ahead of time, as well as do my fair share of pedaling. I would have liked a throttle, but felt that I could live without it. However, my wife - a less experienced bike rider - had major issues on the R&M Homage, even with the twist shifting Nuvinci IGH. She'd be rolling along in a high-ish gear and not remember to down-shift as she came to a stop at a light. Then when the light changed, she was in a too-high gear and had a tough time getting going - she even had some scary balance instability. The helpful salesperson at the LBS there did take the time to work with her on what to do, but even so, she ended up insisting to me afterwards that her bike had to have a throttle for safety.

Now, throttles are less useful on a mid-drive bike, since the motor power goes through the gearing, and so if you're in the wrong gear and hit the throttle you might end up with the chain skipping or even overheat the motor or otherwise damage the chain/drivetrain. The throttle won't help you out with a mid-drive as simply as it does with a hub-motor. Some mid-drive bikes with throttles don't include throttles on the high power optioned versions. Although, it looks like the Bafang mid-drives have a Throttle setting page that could be used to slow the ramp-up and even limit the total power it can apply. There might be a happy medium there.

We did buy high-power bikes with throttles. Neither my wife nor I ride the throttle for anything other than short-lived specific situations, but we do like having them there. The more we ride the more comfortable my wife gets on her bike and I believe she'll be using the throttle less and less.

TL;DR
If you're testing bikes without throttles doing the kind of riding you expect to do and have to ask why a throttle, you don't need a throttle. They're easy to disconnect and pull off, btw.
Wonderful response and super helpful. Thank you.
 
Hey everyone

I was wondering if anyone might be interested in a Bosch based UC Pro ? Standard Ti, Gen 4, with all options, Dual powerpack (500whx2) ? Just curious.
There might be more interest if you offered the Flyon TQ motor based UC Pro.
 
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There might be more interest if you offered the Flyon TQ motor based UC Pro.

When that motor first came out it got a lot of attention, but there doesn't seem to be much talk about it these days. Was there some problems with the TQ motors?
 
TQ is a great motor based on initial review. Realistically, Ultra with the new controller blows away TQ in all performance metric. The only parameter it lags is be motor weight- Bafang is a little heavier. (But we have something better in the works!) -edit 2 : this is the archon X1 i am talking about. We are constantly improving the performance to create an even bigger lead between us and anything else in the market.

Great motor-that being said we don’t have The following
1. Long term reliability / performance data.
2. No assist over 28mph. TQ also adheres to euro spec (Disclaimer - There’s an unlocked version they sell for off road / special cases only).
3. No supper for third party battery.

There’s definitely a use case for that but unless they are Bosch (same pack across multiple generations and easy to find), the Battery issue worries me.

Other than the torque spec, it is hard for TQ to break into the euro spec market against Bosch / Yamaha.


edit 1- want to clarify that currently there is nothing that can realistically touch the performance of the Ultra with the new Archon X1 controller. None of the euro spec motors are anywhere close the price / performace for the forseeable future. :cool:
 
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TQ is a great motor based on initial review. Realistically, Ultra with the new controller blows away TQ in all performance metric. The only parameter it lags is be motor weight- Bafang is a little heavier. (But we have something better in the works!)

Great motor-that being said we don’t have The following
1. Long term reliability / performance data.
2. No assist over 28mph. TQ also adheres to euro spec (Disclaimer - There’s an unlocked version they sell for off road / special cases only).
3. No supper for third party battery.

There’s definitely a use case for that but unless they are Bosch (same pack across multiple generations and easy to find), the Battery issue worries me.

Other than the torque spec, it is hard for TQ to break into the euro spec market against Bosch / Yamaha.
Storck Bicycles presented the E: drenic GTQ for the first time, a long-stroke E-Enduro that comes with a travel of 180 mm at the front and rear. It is supposed to be at the top of the Storck 2020 portfolio and therefore also comes with the super powerful TQ drive, which is only fitted as standard by a few bike brands.

In terms of performance in relation to the size of the housing, the TQ HPR 120S drive has been at the top for a long time and supports its drivers as violently in every situation as if there was no tomorrow. However, the noise level is not exactly quiet, and the price, ouch @ $8999.00 Euro's

Pushkar have you ever thought of testing an unlocked TQ out for research purposes ?
 
You are right - TQ performance versus size is a big win overall for them. The E: drenic GTQ looks like a great bike.

I believe Electric Bike Action did a review sometime back on the unlocked motor version. here is the link https://electricbikeaction.com/bike-test-m1-spitzing-plus/

Here is a link to a TQ review from 2019 and you may be right about the noise issue- (3 minute mark on this video)
. That is pretty noticeable but not surprising. At lower speeds all motors grind, and are loud. You will notice the same behavior on M600 with steel gear. The ultra (bigger rotor) is probably a tad quieter than TQ.

Unfortunately I don't have TQ sample yet. I am focusing on Bafang for the forseeable future. We have invested in making the performance significantly better. The price / performance is ideal for the market I am focusing on (overbuilt, more power, throttle, easy to maintain/ fix, ). Another big thing is that Manufacturer's part support for Bafang Ultra has dramatically improved this year. Tons of easy to find spares / replacements.
 
Storck Bicycles presented the E: drenic GTQ for the first time, a long-stroke E-Enduro that comes with a travel of 180 mm at the front and rear. It is supposed to be at the top of the Storck 2020 portfolio and therefore also comes with the super powerful TQ drive, which is only fitted as standard by a few bike brands.

I went to the Storck website. Nice-looking bike for sure. However, they appear to be selling only the Shimano version (GTS 500):
Storck eMTBs

I'm getting the impression that TQ is having trouble selling their HPR 120S motor in certain markets. Haibike Flyon is another example.
 
The Bafang's are powerful, but the Ultra, at least, doesn't have the best torque mapping. It's fine for commuting with big loads, or anything on road with steep hills and such, but if you need controlled finesse it's lacking.
 
TQ is a great example of a potentially good product that does not innovate in time to be relevant. I would have loved TQ a year ago - but in today's market, with Bosch Gen4, Archon etc, they are being left behind. Even Sachs motors appear to have same / similar performance as TQ (https://sachsmicromobility.com/motor-sachs-rs/?lang=en) - 110Nm is not a big deal anymore.

IMO TQ / Flyon has had enough lead time to bring better performance to the US markets (or even to Euro markets) but there is no segment they can effectively compete in. Further, they are as loud as Bafang (so the bosch people wont buy it), not as powerful as Bafang (bafang people wont buy it), more pricey than Bosch (bafang people will definitely not buy it), and really focussing on off-road (if that). Kinda weird market segment. They also dont have any known support outside EU.

If the Archon is as good as the Bosch / Yamaha in assist, and then goes over and above in terms of power, then it increasingly looks like the leader in the space. TQ are going to miss the US high performance market by a mile. Admittedly this may not be a big market right now, but it is growing a lot faster in light of COVID. The next gen motors are 4- 5 years away with stepless motors, and Archon will definitely last that long, if not more.

I would say TQ is a "nice to have" motor - but unless Archon and Bosch gen4 fail miserably, it is not a big deal anymore.
 
The Bafang's are powerful, but the Ultra, at least, doesn't have the best torque mapping. It's fine for commuting with big loads, or anything on road with steep hills and such, but if you need controlled finesse it's lacking.

You may be referreing to the original Bafang controller. It is not true with the Archon X1, the one that we are shipping our bikes with.

The torque curves are a very good indication of what you are going to get - the ultra with the new controller handily beats every motor out there. Having ridden Bosch, original Bafang and the Archon, the feel is incredible. Now that we have the fundamental performance in line with global standards, we are working on ability to do OTA firmware updates, and make assist settings configurable etc. To my knowledge no other vendor is doing these key things as we move forward.

However I am interested in learning more about what you mean by "controlled finesse" ? May be there are nuances I am missing beyond assit level / torque curves / user profiles ?
 
I went to the Storck website. Nice-looking bike for sure. However, they appear to be selling only the Shimano version (GTS 500):
Storck eMTBs

I'm getting the impression that TQ is having trouble selling their HPR 120S motor in certain markets. Haibike Flyon is another example.

Great point. Yeah, looks like TQ isnt able to break into these markets, and the performance isnt as convincing anymore.
 
The Bafang's are powerful, but the Ultra, at least, doesn't have the best torque mapping. It's fine for commuting with big loads, or anything on road with steep hills and such, but if you need controlled finesse it's lacking.

On the raw basic Ultra, you are correct, but companies like Exess, Watt Wagon, Biktrix and Luna have all done after market upgrades to make the product better.
Bafang themselves is still testing and adjusting stock codes on their motors because they showed riders going out with them in a Video, the testing was for fine tuning existing motors, maybe a 2.8 wheel set with 55 lb bike needs a different setting than 75 pound bike with 4" wheels for optimum performance. Another vendor was talking root hex coding which is something beyond what anybody that buys the bike can do themselves.
 
What we ideally need is Rohloff to work with Grin Technologies & Bafang to create an all integrated IGH+motor but that's not going to happen.
Or Pinion to work with Grin & Bafang.
I'm dreaming :)
 
You may be referreing to the original Bafang controller. It is not true with the Archon X1, the one that we are shipping our bikes with.
...
However I am interested in learning more about what you mean by "controlled finesse" ? May be there are nuances I am missing beyond assit level / torque curves / user profiles ?

Let's start here: With the Archon X1 controller are you still using the Bafang programming tool/program? Does the EggRider V2 support it?
 
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