Any interest in a Bosch based Ultimate Commuter Pro ?

[TomD]

I love how these trolls who have never ridden a Bafang Ultra litter threads with their opinions about the quality of the motor or the bikes that use them. Same nonsense in the Frey thread.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I love how these trolls who have never ridden a Bafang Ultra litter threads with their opinions about the quality of the motor or the bikes that use them. Same nonsense in the Frey thread.

Humm well too bad none of my local shops carry one huh? and calling someone a troll with a different opinion is a bit silly now isn't it? since this is a Bosch post its really silly.

 

[TForan]

but if you don't need it and you want better quality your kinda stuck. plus you dont have really good torque control and it eats up batteries like crazy.

Opinion from a guy who has never ridden the bike. Totally worthless.

 

[TomD]

fooferdoggie, just felt like trolling based on negative sentiments in other threads. You could perhaps arrange a demo (FLX offers them) from a user with the Ultra although I don't see any Blade demos available in Portland OR.

 

[webcurl]

How about going with one of these: https://www.compdrives.com/en/componts/c19-mid and a say 8ah battery with dual option to 16ah's. For a commuter it isn't necessary to have huge range if you think about it nor lot's of power. You have those bases covered already anyway.

In the specs the c19 is listed as throttle able with advanced PAS which sounds ideal for my needs anyway.

Many of us want to travel on 57mm+ tires with suspension, not 20mm. And a cummuter including racks, etc to carry extras, something a road bike like this is not designed for.

 

[fooferdoggie]

fooferdoggie, just felt like trolling based on negative sentiments in other threads. You could perhaps arrange a demo (FLX offers them) from a user with the Ultra although I don't see any Blade demos available in Portland OR.

I am happy with what I have. I went with a little less power from 500 watts on my dapu to the bosch. it is a much better ride and I can go plenty fast on the road since thats all I ride. but I like a bike that functions smoothly with great shifting. the bosch has a great torque sensor and it is great how how deals with shifting. plus I already spent 6k on bikes last year I am done for awhile.

 

[JRA]

Many of us want to travel on 57mm+ tires with suspension, not 20mm. And a cummuter including racks, etc to carry extras, something a road bike like this is not designed for.

Not sure what "road bike with 20mm tires" you are referring to as I see no mention of that in my post that you quote? And I would venture to say that my experience with commuting via bicycle, which occurred primarily in the Portland Metro area when I lived on Sauvies Id. a few years ago, says the opposite. In fact I would wager to say that 90% of the commuters there ride drop bar bikes with narrow tires, racks, fenders etc. on a daily basis and they are the ones on conventional bikes. I always pondered that perhaps the reason eBikes weren't gaining much ground there is that getting people to try e assist is one thing but to change their perception of the style of bike they ride is a whole other thing.

The fact that you, and the many others you seem to stand for, want wider tires and more suspension is fine with me but please note that there are probably just as many that want a more road oriented bike thus the burgeoning popularity of eRoad bikes. There is room for everyones needs in the eBike world.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

The reason to move away from Bafang is to have a more natural, smoother pedaling experience. My bike has the Luna-tuned Bafang Ultra motor, and even PAS 1 is too powerful sometimes. The R&M bikes I test rode had a much better torque sensor and/or program. With the Ultra, I always feel like the bike is being powered. With the Bosch (and I've heard, Specialized and Brose and Shimano), I simply felt stronger. The multiplier effect is more seamless. The Bosch display (depending on which one you get) can show range remaining and there's a version that connects to a smartphone. Read the forum here and while there's complaints about Bosch's display software, as far as I can tell it's more functional than Bafang's.

With the new 2020 Gen 4 motors, Bosch no longer penalizes you for pedaling faster than the speed cutoff. Since Watt Wagons are commute bikes, you'll want the Speed version, both for top speed (28 mph) and to have a torque curve that matches an on-road experience.

However, what will your bikes offer that Riese & Muller don't? The SuperDelight, for instance, is a full-suspension Bosch eBike, available with electronic Rohloff, Magura brakes, rear rack (on a full suspension bike!), and dual batteries for at least 1KWh. With titanium, you can make a lighter bike. Maybe you'll stick with a hard tail design to save costs, but R&M has one of those, too.

EDIT: If you could get your hands on the TQ motor in its fully blown form (see the M1 Spitzing, for instance), that would be really great.

Bafang is going to be coming out with some really high quality and smooth running motors. They've now got significant investment money, tons of sales worldwide as a base revenue stream that just keeps growing from both hub and mid drive models, and will be giving every other mid drive manufacturer very stiff competition. And I suspect it will be in a rather short time period that some serious market share will be grabbed by Bafang. Being able to avoid hugely marked up batteries, and proprietary battery designs, will be a big advantage for those ebike OEMs choosing Bafang. Bosch has been notorious for years in many divisions of making so much proprietary and not at all serviceable by a lot of different people, will very likely cap their growth in this market. Society has moved to open platforms in many technology applications. The last thing I want is for a motor maker to hold me hostage on paying $1000 for a fairly small capacity battery that I could otherwise buy for half that and still get Samsung or Panasonic, very high quality BMS, and cells from two of the best names in the business.

 

[webcurl]

Not sure what "road bike with 20mm tires" you are referring to as I see no mention of that in my post that you quote? And I would venture to say that my experience with commuting via bicycle, which occurred primarily in the Portland Metro area when I lived on Sauvies Id. a few years ago, says the opposite. In fact I would wager to say that 90% of the commuters there ride drop bar bikes with narrow tires, racks, fenders etc. on a daily basis and they are the ones on conventional bikes. I always pondered that perhaps the reason eBikes weren't gaining much ground there is that getting people to try e assist is one thing but to change their perception of the style of bike they ride is a whole other thing.

The fact that you, and the many others you seem to stand for, want wider tires and more suspension is fine with me but please note that there are probably just as many that want a more road oriented bike thus the burgeoning popularity of eRoad bikes. There is room for everyones needs in the eBike world.

The photo of the bike in the C19 post looks like a Road Bike probably with 20mm tires. This is the type of bike it's probably aimed at with only 60nm Torque. There are many Road ebikes out there already.
Wider rims & tires are a slow progression as years ago they were very heavy and thus required considerably more effort to push without a motor, people are accustomed to narrow rims & tires and are slow to change. Narrow rims & tires are also manufactured in significantly larger volumes because of this and therefore are cheaper, even further adding to the popularity of narrow wheels and slowing progression.
This is a Wattwagons forum, i don't own one but the reason i'm here is because of the Titanium frame, Rohloff, Gates, strong wheels, etc. Both models so far have 60mm & 101mm (2.4" & 4") tires on 35mm+ rims. And i would assume any alternative motor to the Bafang would hopefully have more than 60nm of Torque to cope with all the extras that these Commuting & Fat bikes have and can handle.

 

[TomD]

I can't see big name ebike OEMs switching to Bafang any time soon. It's not that they are waiting for higher quality or smoother running motors. They need to differentiate themselves from bikes with Bafang motors because otherwise they can't compete.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I can't see big name ebike OEMs switching to Bafang any time soon. It's not that they are waiting for higher quality or smoother running motors. They need to differentiate themselves from bikes with Bafang motors because otherwise they can't compete.

well too they need long term products. how many years will those motors and batteries be supported?

 

[TForan]

I am happy with what I have. I went with a little less power from 500 watts on my dapu to the bosch. it is a much better ride and I can go plenty fast on the road since thats all I ride. but I like a bike that functions smoothly with great shifting. the bosch has a great torque sensor and it is great how how deals with shifting. plus I already spent 6k on bikes last year I am done for awhile.

It's nice you're happy with what you have but don't opine on a bike you never rode.

 

[fooferdoggie]

It's nice you're happy with what you have but don't opine on a bike you never rode.

I am sure I can say the same about you right? but I so know I don't need gobs of power to go fast. thats an American attitude. Plus I know my Bosch wont get dropped in a few years. and I can get good support for it locally.

 

[TForan]

I am sure I can say the same about you right? but I so know I don't need gobs of power to go fast. thats an American attitude. Plus I know my Bosch wont get dropped in a few years. and I can get good support for it locally.

No, you can't say that about me because I would not give an opinion of a bike I've never ridden. That would be stupid.

 

[Martinet]

I don't know if Propel is just trying to push Bosch motors in this video but it may be one reasons Pushkar is considering:

The last thing I want is for a motor maker to hold me hostage on paying $1000 for a fairly small capacity battery that I could otherwise buy for half that and still get Samsung or Panasonic, very high quality BMS, and cells from two of the best names in the business.

My thoughts on the Chris's video and Mike's post. Mike and others consider Bosch to be price gouging on batteries. Chris compares the ebike business to air conditioners years ago after which there was a large consolidation of manufacturers.

Although very unlikely, there is a chance for a catastrophic incident say if someone were to charge or store a battery somewhat improperly in his apartment. A battery fire in an apartment building could result in third party loss of life akin to an airplane disaster. A large corporation with huge assets to protect such as Bosch would be forced to seek insurance which may be expensive. Adding such insurance to the batteries price would increase costs dramatically. On the other hand, a rational strategy for a smaller manufacturer might not pay for such insurance. The chances of a catastrophic incident occurring is very small and the manufacturer could fold up if it occured. [I advise smaller companies to be sure to keep corporate or LLC status current.]

Because of this liability cost dichotomy, I foresee a continuing cost advantage for smaller companies and not the consolidation that occured in the air conditioner industry. By and large this would be a good thing.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Because of this liability cost dichotomy, I foresee a continuing cost advantage for smaller companies and not the consolidation that occured in the air conditioner industry. By and large this would be a good thing.

well unless your the owner of a hoverboard battery

 

[WinterKill]

I think Chris has a point. Look also at the personal computer industry, back in the 80’s and early 90‘s there where all kinds of small startups putting together computers. Some made great computers, some not so good. Most of these companies or small shops are not around anymore. Some made it big. Dell. Some big companies got out of the business. IBM.

The new bike companies need a business plan, make a quantity product, support it as well as innovative..

 

[Martinet]

I think Chris has a point. Look also at the personal computer industry, back in the 80’s and early 90‘s there where all kinds of small startups putting together computers. Some made great computers, some not so good. Most of these companies or small shops are not around anymore. Some made it big. Dell. Some big companies got out of the business. IBM.

The new bike companies need a business plan, make a quantity product, support it as well as innovative..

Agree, I believe the liability issue will merely mitigate and delay the trend towards consolidation.

 

[Johnny]

I don't know if Propel is just trying to push Bosch motors in this video but it may be one reasons Pushkar is considering:

I would take this with a grain of salt.

10 years is a long time, lots of things change and even after 5 years the bicycle you paid 4-5k will probably not worth 1K so it probably won't make sense to drop in more than what the bike is worth to get it running again if it comes to that.

Also, if a company wants to future proof their products they should let their system to work with aftermarket components. When there is demand there will be aftermarket parts yet right now what I see is the exact opposite, even after the warranty expires one can not use aftermarket parts such as batteries in most of these ebike systems. Fortunately the batteries last a long time.

 

[pushkar]

Also, if a company wants to future proof their products they should let their system to work with aftermarket components. When there is demand there will be aftermarket parts yet right now what I see is the exact opposite, even after the warranty expires one can not use aftermarket parts such as batteries in most of these ebike systems. Fortunately the batteries last a long time.

You hit the nail on the head - at Watt Wagons we haev chosen standard quality components that are easily end-user replaceable / serviceable even after warranty expires. Specifically for batteries, any good current 52V pack with 30A continuous will work.

That being said, Bosch has also done a good job of supporting their systems for a long time. Bosch's battery specs appears to be fairly consistent acrtoss generations, and are easy to source / buy through dealers. Bafang similarly has also consistently supported their products - some of them over 8-9 years. I think dostbikes is actually using a bbs02, which is nearly 8 years old but is still supported, and parts are still available. Yes, their support for spare parts is less than stellar, but i hope it changes over the coming years. They just got funded, so there is money to grow up and have a better / more robust post sales international support model.