Any interest in a Bosch based Ultimate Commuter Pro ?

[pushkar]

Let's start here: With the Archon X1 controller are you still using the Bafang programming tool/program? Does the EggRider V2 support it?

- No. We dont use the bafang programming tool / cable etc . Controller has our own firmware is is configured via a custom display (eventually a phone based app).
- Same hardware, different firmware. So technically similar operations, but not Eggrider.

 

[webcurl]

Umm.. isnt TDCM equipped with internal gearing ?

Yes with a gear range of only 243%, Max Pinion is 636%, Rohloff is 526%

 

[pushkar]

Aaah.. ok.


Curious - why is gear range important for ebikes?

If you are throwing 1000W at the bike - you can get to whatever top speed you want in a hurry.

I'm just trying to better understand what is the advantage of a larger gear-range for ebikes, other than the specific edge case of uphill climbing?

Should we look for a different metric for ebikes?

 

[webcurl]

Efficiency & range when touring, and when i say touring i mean carrying lot's of weight for long distances.
Which is what originally attracted my attention to Watt Wagons, strong Ti frame (hopefully reliable weight carrying capability), Rohloff, Belt, Power for uphills with weight, flexibility of charging (Bafang, non proprietary batteries), all on an agile bike.

 

[pushkar]

Thanks. That is awesome .

My question sounds stupid in hindsight.

Touring is indeed a huge part of our design consideration and I momentarily spazzed out. Thanks for your response.

 

[Ebiker33]

Let's start here: With the Archon X1 controller are you still using the Bafang programming tool/program? Does the EggRider V2 support it?

Better control
In contrast to the original Bafang controller, which predominantly uses the cadence sensor (which detects the movement of the cranks), we are working increasingly with the signal from the torque sensor (pedal pressure). In conjunction with the FOC control system we use, the engine thus converts the pedal force directly and proportional to engine power. The "leg input" results directly proportional in motor output, depending on the power level up to 11 times more than your own power. The engine reacts 1:1 to the "commands" of leg strength. As a result, this leads to a driving style that is much closer to the driving experience of normal cycling, but with the feeling of superhuman leg forces.

Better shifting
By directly applying the pedal movement and pedal pressure, the engine starts and stops in a very short time. This allows a very fast and load-free switching mode. This reduces the wear of the drive.

Higher range and more power output
Due to better hardware and much more precise control, the efficiency of the engine could be increased. The result is a higher range when using the same power output or you can also use the higher effiency for more power output with the same power consumption. The range increases by about 10-15% compared to the Bafang controller.

Higher reliability
We have installed various fuses to prevent short circuits. Reliable temperature monitoring and software temperature controlling prevents overheating of the motor.

 

[ak907]

Better control
In contrast to the original Bafang controller, which predominantly uses the cadence sensor (which detects the movement of the cranks), we are working increasingly with the signal from the torque sensor (pedal pressure). In conjunction with the FOC control system we use, the engine thus converts the pedal force directly and proportional to engine power. The "leg input" results directly proportional in motor output, depending on the power level up to 11 times more than your own power. The engine reacts 1:1 to the "commands" of leg strength. As a result, this leads to a driving style that is much closer to the driving experience of normal cycling, but with the feeling of superhuman leg forces.

Better shifting
By directly applying the pedal movement and pedal pressure, the engine starts and stops in a very short time. This allows a very fast and load-free switching mode. This reduces the wear of the drive.

Higher range and more power output
Due to better hardware and much more precise control, the efficiency of the engine could be increased. The result is a higher range when using the same power output or you can also use the higher effiency for more power output with the same power consumption. The range increases by about 10-15% compared to the Bafang controller.

Higher reliability
We have installed various fuses to prevent short circuits. Reliable temperature monitoring and software temperature controlling prevents overheating of the motor.

This all makes me a bit sad and wish I had this magical new controller! Glad to see progress though!

 

[pushkar]

This all makes me a bit sad and wish I had this magical new controller! Glad to see progress though!

Hey bud, I’ll send an email to all WW customers as soon as we have the controllers in stock. Our customers can upgrade to the new controller at a discounted price. I have a few customers who have already requested the upgrade!

Edit- apologies. I use a wipe keyboard and wrote “You customers” instead of “Our customers”. Almost sounded like Kirk Lazarus from Tropic Thunder.

Edit- ugh. I mean a SWIPE keyboard. Dang.

 

[smorgasbord]

- No. We dont use the bafang programming tool / cable etc . Controller has our own firmware is is configured via a custom display (eventually a phone based app).
- Same hardware, different firmware. So technically similar operations, but not Eggrider.

Wow, that sounds great. The other companies (Biktrix, Luna, etc.) that have higher output Ultras must still be using the same electronics architecture and firmware in their controllers since they all program via the Bafang software and EggRider supports them all. With your own firmware you can do a lot more, which is really cool.

I have a Luna Apollo (bought before I heard about the Travalanche) and its Ultra motor peaks at 2,000 watts. That's plenty of power - I don't feel like I need more (and I tackle some pretty steep stuff, for instance, here's last Sunday's ride), but the torque multiplier just isn't right. With the Bafang controller, you get to play around with torque multipliers in each of 6 different speed ranges (I assume these are crank rpms), and you get to limit the max output for each of up to 9 PAS levels (+ off). I don't understand the philosophy behind the different settings for different crank speed ranges - seems like you'd want a single mapping of torque on pedal to torque/power output on the motor, and be able to change that mapping for different kinds of riding (leisurely/hypermiling, on-road fast/uphill, off-road singletrack, touring with heavy loads, etc.), not for different crank speeds. But with Bafangt, you don't get to program different multipliers for different PAS levels, and you can't really get an on-road configuration set as well as an off-road configuration set unless you want to manually program before each ride (assuming you've even figured out what the settings mean and how they work). I have ridden a Bosch up SF hills, but not for long enough to really know all that it's capable of, even with its much lower overall power.

The Bosch felt more natural in that while riding you just feel stronger. With the Bafang you always feel like the motor is obeying your commands. That's the finesse I'm talking about.

If you can do that on Bafang hardware, sounds great! Let me know when you're willing to sell to not WW bike owners.

 

[Ebiker33]

Wow, that sounds great. The other companies (Biktrix, Luna, etc.) that have higher output Ultras must still be using the same electronics architecture and firmware in their controllers since they all program via the Bafang software and EggRider supports them all. With your own firmware you can do a lot more, which is really cool.

I have a Luna Apollo (bought before I heard about the Travalanche) and its Ultra motor peaks at 2,000 watts. That's plenty of power - I don't feel like I need more (and I tackle some pretty steep stuff, for instance, here's last Sunday's ride), but the torque multiplier just isn't right. With the Bafang controller, you get to play around with torque multipliers in each of 6 different speed ranges (I assume these are crank rpms), and you get to limit the max output for each of up to 9 PAS levels (+ off). I don't understand the philosophy behind the different settings for different crank speed ranges - seems like you'd want a single mapping of torque on pedal to torque/power output on the motor, and be able to change that mapping for different kinds of riding (leisurely/hypermiling, on-road fast/uphill, off-road singletrack, touring with heavy loads, etc.), not for different crank speeds. But with Bafangt, you don't get to program different multipliers for different PAS levels, and you can't really get an on-road configuration set as well as an off-road configuration set unless you want to manually program before each ride (assuming you've even figured out what the settings mean and how they work). I have ridden a Bosch up SF hills, but not for long enough to really know all that it's capable of, even with its much lower overall power.

The Bosch felt more natural in that while riding you just feel stronger. With the Bafang you always feel like the motor is obeying your commands. That's the finesse I'm talking about.

If you can do that on Bafang hardware, sounds great! Let me know when you're willing to sell to not WW bike owners.

Exess sells the upgrade for 390 euro's but I think it has to come with the motor, however if Watt Wagon is upgrading all their older customers they might be able to help after they have satisfied all the upgrades needed, my only concern is installation, not everybody is capable of doing that. But I am sure Pushkar will have instruction for this.

 

[byunbee]

Hey bud, I’ll send an email to all WW customers as soon as we have the controllers in stock. Our customers can upgrade to the new controller at a discounted price. I have a few customers who have already requested the upgrade!

Edit- apologies. I use a wipe keyboard and wrote “You customers” instead of “Our customers”. Almost sounded like Kirk Lazarus from Tropic Thunder.

Edit- ugh. I mean a SWIPE keyboard. Dang.

How would the upgrade process work? Send back the motor and WW installs and sends it back?

 

[onlineaddy]

How would the upgrade process work? Send back the motor and WW installs and sends it back?

I believe so. Pushkar says the motor/controller combo needs to be tuned together.

 

[smorgasbord]

I believe so. Pushkar says the motor/controller combo needs to be tuned together.

Can you explain what non-controller tuning on a motor might be? It's just magnets, wires in a coil, and gears, right?

 

[pushkar]

Just read this article https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bosch-ebike-abs-review/
Doesn’t work that well in slippery conditions - Probably not ready for prime time just yet. Also the controller unit is super big.
I’ll keep a lookout but may be one they fix the issues.

 

[pushkar]

I also just watched this -

What is interesting is that in both cases the "with ABS" bikes are with front suspension, but "without ABS" bikes are fixed fork .

That being said - definitely interesting tech that I will keep monitoring. Thanks for bringing this up.