Announced: Yamaha Civante - 28mph

So at the higher end competing for the biggest sales we have now Yamaha vs Trek vs Specialized vs Giant ? I can write Stromer also but you all , already know my opinion of them...


Too bad BH left. That would have made the prices become cheaper.

I don't think Yamaha is competing for overall sales, they're trying to get a class 3 (which they've needed) to market as quickly as possible. Not sure about things becoming "cheaper" this class 3 bike is one of the most reasonable prices bikes I've seen given it's spec.
 
So at the higher end competing for the biggest sales we have now Yamaha vs Trek vs Specialized vs Giant ?

Trek, Specialized, and Giant are long established bike brands with extensive dealer representation. Yamaha, while a known name brand, does not have any reputation as a bicycle manufacturer (in the USA), and dealers are few and far between. It will take quite a bit of effort for Yamaha to be in the top tier of unit sales.
 
"Yamaha’s motorcycle sales are the second largest in the world[4]and Yamaha is the world leader in water vehicle sales.[5]"

The relative takeaways are that they know what they're doing and they're doing their best to get into the market. This bike is hardly a move for volume, moreover a move to say "hey, we can play too."

As one of the initial dealers and having experience with them in the powersport market they're doing a good job, albeit a touch slow compared to Bosch/Brose.
 
So at the higher end competing for the biggest sales we have now Yamaha vs Trek vs Specialized vs Giant?

I can write Stromer also but you all, already know my opinion of them...

Too bad BH left. That would have made the prices become cheaper.

Trek, Specialized, and Giant are long-established bike brands with extensive dealer representation. Yamaha, while a known name brand, does not have any reputation as a bicycle manufacturer (in the USA), and dealers are few and far between. It will take quite a bit of effort for Yamaha to be in the top tier of unit sales.

There are 4 Big brands with significant Dealer market share... Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, and Giant. Yamaha has been primarily represented by Giant in the US market.

Vosper: Dealer count 2020
A deeper dive into the new dealer numbers reveals some interesting truths about brands, dealer populations and the industry's shifting balance of power.
www.bicycleretailer.com
www.bicycleretailer.com
www.bicycleretailer.com
 
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Yamaha does seem to be behind the times when it comes to battery/frame integration. I like the Civante for what it offers at a good price point, but the Creo is a much better looking e-road bike.
I prefer Yamahas battery mount over most others for several reasons:
Semi integrated battery casings like the popular Reention Dorado, have issues with the alignment of the electric connection, the most important part beyond the cells themselves. Yamahas connection design is superior, and never has issues connecting.

Fully frame integrated batteries while perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, add a lot of unnecessary weight to the bike due to all the extra metal and the otherwise structurally compromised shell design, versus the super strong hydroformed tube design on the Yamaha. A lot of extra welding and more metal near the joints on the enclosed battery designs is not as structurally sound, nor as aerodynamic as the Yamaha. Yamaha has a very well thought out flat top tube for their battery mounting , and the battery ease of access, and removal has a lot of appeal when you realize how the competing designs decrease ease of access or connections become less reliable over time.

Yamahas battery is lighter than most also, has a smaller form factor, very easy to grab handle and can be much more easily taken with you in a backpack, or removable trunk bag, when you lock up and leave your precious ebike outside for a few hours. You arent faced with the decision to leave the battery on your ebike making it a more valuable theft target or taking that big hulking heavy reention or shark style and awkwardly shaped battery with you.

Lastly their battery will stay cooler and you'll appreciate that your 43 lb Yamaha ebike with that smaller battery can have the same Level 1 assist range (as much as 70 miles) of your 65 lb monster hub drive ebike with its much heavier 48 volt, 17 amphour to go the same inefficient distance. Especially if the battery runs out of juice and you aren't close to home and gawd forbid you have to pedal back under that ok fashioned 'human' power of yours. :(

Yamahas design really isn't as dated as you might think, when you consider many more advantages it has than other design attempts that are more about 'looks' than functionality, performance, and reliability. Don't forget, Yamaha has been manufacturing ebikes since the early 90's versus most other ebike firms that can't even claim a decade of being in existence and don't do any of their own design or engineering, and often rely on third party Chinese factories who are just copying some one else's frame design or using plagiarized CAD drawings where original source is totally unknown, or may not be fully vetted or tested or had any finite element analysis done to determine structural integrity and long term performance. I'd be very careful 'knocking' Yamaha or their design approach and choices , especially at this early stage of ebike adoption, and hundreds of 'me too' white label importers who pretend to have 'expertise.' There is going to be a shake out over the next decade where many of the new brands younger than 10 years old, simply will cease to exist. Particularly some of the more 'popular' and heavily marketed on line only brands will struggle the most, as marketing being their only current and slight advantage, will be short lived. Yamaha has very deep pockets, decades of proven manufacturing and consumer product expertise, and even legendary brand loyalty across multiple industries, and product categories. If you are a musician, motorcycle enthusiast, dirt bike rider, wave runner, boating, or other power sports participant, you probably have a much better idea of who they are and how well received many of their products have been over DECADES. Let's give this some time to play out in ebikes now too.
 
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Terrific post, Mike

Similarly, I always thought Trek had hit the sweet spot re battery placement with the Super Commuter. It was nicely tucked in on the downtube but still you could swap out with any Trek powerpack.
 
I prefer Yamahas battery mount over most others for several reasons:
Semi integrated battery casings like the popular Reention Dorado, have issues with the alignment of the electric connection, the most important part beyond the cells themselves. Yamahas connection design is superior, and never has issues connecting.

Fully frame integrated batteries while perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, add a lot of unnecessary weight to the bike due to all the extra metal and the otherwise structurally compromised shell design, versus the super strong hydroformed tube design on the Yamaha. A lot of extra welding and more metal near the joints on the enclosed battery designs is not as structurally sound, nor as aerodynamic as the Yamaha. Yamaha has a very well thought out flat top tube for their battery mounting , and the battery ease of access, and removal has a lot of appeal when you realize how the competing designs decrease ease of access or connections become less reliable over time.

Yamahas battery is lighter than most also, has a smaller form factor, very easy to grab handle and can be much more easily taken with you in a backpack, or removable trunk bag, when you lock up and leave your precious ebike outside for a few hours. You arent faced with the decision to leave the battery on your ebike making it a more valuable theft target or taking that big hulking heavy reention or shark style and awkwardly shaped battery with you.

Lastly their battery will stay cooler and you'll appreciate that your 43 lb Yamaha ebike with that smaller battery can have the same Level 1 assist range (as much as 70 miles) of your 65 lb monster hub drive ebike with its much heavier 48 volt, 17 amphour to go the same inefficient distance. Especially if the battery runs out of juice and you aren't close to home and gawd forbid you have to pedal back under that ok fashioned 'human' power of yours. :(

Yamahas design really isn't as dated as you might think, when you consider many more advantages it has than other design attempts that are more about 'looks' than functionality, performance, and reliability. Don't forget, Yamaha has been manufacturing ebikes since the early 90's versus most other ebike firms that can't even claim a decade of being in existence and don't do any of their own design or engineering, and often rely on third party Chinese factories who are just copying some one else's frame design or using plagiarized CAD drawings where original source is totally unknown, or may not be fully vetted or tested or had any finite element analysis done to determine structural integrity and long term performance. I'd be very careful 'knocking' Yamaha or their design approach and choices , especially at this early stage of ebike adoption, and hundreds of 'me too' white label importers who pretend to have 'expertise.' There is going to be a shake out over the next decade where many of the new brands younger than 10 years old, simply will cease to exist. Particularly some of the more 'popular' and heavily marketed on line only brands will struggle the most, as marketing being their only current and slight advantage, will be short lived. Yamaha has very deep pockets, decades of proven manufacturing and consumer product expertise, and even legendary brand loyalty across multiple industries, and product categories. If you are a musician, motorcycle enthusiast, dirt bike rider, wave runner, boating, or other power sports participant, you probably have a much better idea of who they are and how well received many of their products have been over DECADES. Let's give this some time to play out in ebikes now too.

I agree that Yamaha is a stong long term player in the market... thanks for the well thought out analysis. ;)
 
The Yamaha system is the reason I bought this. I’ve had a Toughroad for a year and a half and just love the way the Yamaha motor works... far smoother than Bosch. Maybe not better, but very different.

It will get a good 35 or so miles tomorrow as a shakedown cruise, I’m really looking forward to it. This seems like a good fit for an alternate bike to the Toughroad... pure road versus a gravel tiger.
 
Just got my new Civante. I took it out on a quick 45 mile ride on SART (not my video) -
- to test out the bike. I rode everything stock except I put on my SPD's and my phone holder. The bike has crazy power and I never needed more than ECO mode (level 2) the whole ride. To be fair SART is relatively flat and a pure bike trail so no cars and pretty much no stopping unless you want to. The bike rides more like a commuter than a serious road bike but that is what I expected. I can ride SART on my carbon road bike but I'd be tired for days. The reason I got the Yamaha is because I am sneaking up on retirement and I still want to do a half century which is becoming too much for me anymore. The bike weights 43lbs which is 7lbs heavier than my mountain bike so, yeah, it's heavy. My wife's Specialized e-bike is over 51lbs. Despite the weight it rides fairly lightly and the motor makes up for the weight even in ECO+ (level 1). Super wide, thick, and heavy tires come on the bike but I suppose that is what it takes to support a 43lb bike? I've ridden other peoples e-bikes over the years including the high end Specialized non roadie series and the Civante feels more like a reliable commuter road style bike than the others. The only two other e-bikes that are better I've ridden might be the Bianchi and the high end Specialized road bike. But, this is only a fraction of the price but it definitely makes a better commuter/fitness bike. I say if you really want a stealth carbon e-road bike then spend the money (over 2.5 times) and get what you want. Lower end components will be replaced as soon as they wear which might be sooner than later for the Tiagra but I'm not sure because I have no experience with that groupset. Shifting is clunkier than with Ultegra and Tiagra brakes are not nearly as strong but don't seem to fade. At the end of a relatively relaxed 45 miles I still had 50% battery so range is not going to be a problem. My butt will give out before the battery. Also, I expect I can put gravel tires on the bike and get away with some light off road. I'll put some racers tape on 1st to protect the paint but it should be fine. very neutral stable handling and a rather upright position might favor a little dirt action. Don't ride the new Specialized $9,000+ Carbon Ultegra Di2 Class 3 gravel bike unless you are willing to walk away and not look back. The Yamaha makes way more sense unless you just don't have enough stuff to spend your money on.
 
Just got my new Civante. I took it out on a quick 45 mile ride on SART (not my video) -
- to test out the bike. I rode everything stock except I put on my SPD's and my phone holder. The bike has crazy power and I never needed more than ECO mode (level 2) the whole ride. To be fair SART is relatively flat and a pure bike trail so no cars and pretty much no stopping unless you want to. The bike rides more like a commuter than a serious road bike but that is what I expected. I can ride SART on my carbon road bike but I'd be tired for days. The reason I got the Yamaha is because I am sneaking up on retirement and I still want to do a half century which is becoming too much for me anymore. The bike weights 43lbs which is 7lbs heavier than my mountain bike so, yeah, it's heavy. My wife's Specialized e-bike is over 51lbs. Despite the weight it rides fairly lightly and the motor makes up for the weight even in ECO+ (level 1). Super wide, thick, and heavy tires come on the bike but I suppose that is what it takes to support a 43lb bike? I've ridden other peoples e-bikes over the years including the high end Specialized non roadie series and the Civante feels more like a reliable commuter road style bike than the others. The only two other e-bikes that are better I've ridden might be the Bianchi and the high end Specialized road bike. But, this is only a fraction of the price but it definitely makes a better commuter/fitness bike. I say if you really want a stealth carbon e-road bike then spend the money (over 2.5 times) and get what you want. Lower end components will be replaced as soon as they wear which might be sooner than later for the Tiagra but I'm not sure because I have no experience with that groupset. Shifting is clunkier than with Ultegra and Tiagra brakes are not nearly as strong but don't seem to fade. At the end of a relatively relaxed 45 miles I still had 50% battery so range is not going to be a problem. My butt will give out before the battery. Also, I expect I can put gravel tires on the bike and get away with some light off road. I'll put some racers tape on 1st to protect the paint but it should be fine. very neutral stable handling and a rather upright position might favor a little dirt action. Don't ride the new Specialized $9,000+ Carbon Ultegra Di2 Class 3 gravel bike unless you are willing to walk away and not look back. The Yamaha makes way more sense unless you just don't have enough stuff to spend your money on.

Welcome to EBR and congratulations on your new Civante! :)
 
The Yamaha system is the reason I bought this. I’ve had a Toughroad for a year and a half and just love the way the Yamaha motor works... far smoother than Bosch. Maybe not better, but very different.

It will get a good 35 or so miles tomorrow as a shakedown cruise, I’m really looking forward to it. This seems like a good fit for an alternate bike to the Toughroad... pure road versus a gravel tiger.
Have you tried the Bosch Gen 4 ?
 
Lower end components will be replaced as soon as they wear which might be sooner than later for the Tiagra but I'm not sure because I have no experience with that groupset. ... Also, I expect I can put gravel tires on the bike and get away with some light off road. I'll put some racers tape on 1st to protect the paint but it should be fine. very neutral stable handling and a rather upright position might favor a little dirt action.


Very cool! Congratulations on the new bike.

Mid level components are so good now and as a bike enthusiast that uses bikes almost daily, I'm hard pressed to find the difference other than the number of gears in the cassette.

And yes, the Civante can take bigger gravel tires. I currently have some 38mm Gravel King tires on my Urban Rush and it still has a ton of clearance.
 
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Question

can I fit 28mm tires using the same tubes and Rims on the Civante

The Civante rims are 17mm inside width, so 28mm tires will definitely fit. The tube fit depends on the flat fold width, but I have seen many a bike with tubes that were "too wide" but stuffed into tires.
 
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