Announced: Yamaha Civante - 28mph
- Thread starter nbkutz
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Iridebikez
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OK, Yamaha riders. I've fallen down this rabbit hole and I fear I won't come out until I have a Yamaha ebike. I'm heading to a dealer later to try the CrossCore. I think they have the Wabash in stock as well, so I'll probably give that a spin, too.
I have a couple questions about the Civante compared to the other bikes in the lineup. The motor is the same across the Fitness and Road lineup, but I also saw WattsUpDude's thread about being unable to find a third party solution to increase the max speed. What is the difference between bikes? Also, in Micah's review of the Wabash he said he got it up to 40 mph and it sounded like he could have pushed it faster. Court's review of the CrossCore implies the assist doesn't cut out completely after 20 mph as well. On non-Civante models, is there any assist past 20, or does it cut out completely? Is the increase to 28 mph on the Civante just a software update? As I said, I'm going to try it for myself later this evening, but any insight would be greatly appreciated!
I have a couple questions about the Civante compared to the other bikes in the lineup. The motor is the same across the Fitness and Road lineup, but I also saw WattsUpDude's thread about being unable to find a third party solution to increase the max speed. What is the difference between bikes? Also, in Micah's review of the Wabash he said he got it up to 40 mph and it sounded like he could have pushed it faster. Court's review of the CrossCore implies the assist doesn't cut out completely after 20 mph as well. On non-Civante models, is there any assist past 20, or does it cut out completely? Is the increase to 28 mph on the Civante just a software update? As I said, I'm going to try it for myself later this evening, but any insight would be greatly appreciated!
WattsUpDude
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When communicating with the US dealer, I came away with the impression that it might just be firmware differences that either allow or reject a third party tuning box. User @nonsensicalnarwhal confirmed that the Speedbox works for their Cross Core and I know that I've read that it also works for the Wabash. I've not read any reports about a solution that works with the Urban Rush or the Cross Connect.
As far as being able to take the Wabash to 40MPH, i'm sure that he's talking about riding it downhill. I hit 35-4x MPH on my daily commute on a few downhills. I only do this early in the morning on very wide roads that allow room for error.
I don't find that the 20MPH limit is intrusive if I'm on flat land or a slight decline. I do feel it when I'm climbing for sure.Iridebikez
Member
Thanks for the explanation, that sort of makes sense. But I wonder why it would be different between those particular models. If anything, I'd expect the firmware to be shared between the Cross Core and Cross Connect, but different than the (shared) firmware of the Wabash/Urban Rush (and Civante to an extent). It seems odd that the Urban Rush and Cross Connect share firmware that the Cross Core and Wabash don't.
He must have been going down a really steep hill! No offense to the guy, but Micah doesn't seem like the type to be able to push a bike that fast under his own power. I think my max downhill speed on my regular road/commuter bike is about 38mph, but that's with less than optimal gearing.
When climbing, is it at least easy enough to hold at 20mph? I guess in most of my use cases 20 is plenty fast enough, but I also have a tendency to haul as fast as possible on the morning commute, which is exactly the time I'm looking to reduce my effort so I don't show up a sweaty mess.
He must have been going down a really steep hill! No offense to the guy, but Micah doesn't seem like the type to be able to push a bike that fast under his own power. I think my max downhill speed on my regular road/commuter bike is about 38mph, but that's with less than optimal gearing.
When climbing, is it at least easy enough to hold at 20mph? I guess in most of my use cases 20 is plenty fast enough, but I also have a tendency to haul as fast as possible on the morning commute, which is exactly the time I'm looking to reduce my effort so I don't show up a sweaty mess.
WattsUpDude
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- San Francisco, Bay Area
Depending on the area, it's easy to find hills that will allow that much speed. The first descent on my morning commute is a one mile stretch that drops about 360 feet. I can spin without even topping the gearing out and just let gravity to do it's thing and I'm easily hitting 4X MPH. I do most of my climbing on the way home and the assist is absolutely helpful. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area so there are a lot of tough hills that I encounter. On some grades, I can only manage 9-10 MPH even with full assist. I'm sure a stronger cyclist can do much faster but I'm already getting a workout and average 135-145 BPM on my commute. I don't want the bike to do all of the work for me as my hourly rides is where I get most of my cardio these days.
Iridebikez
Member
Just got my Civante today and got a ride in this evening!
The infamous third-floor.
First the bad, because overall it's very good. My biggest criticism is that, as a bicycle, it's fine. Not great, not terrible, everything works and there aren't any parts that are obviously bad or insufficient. I'm not an aluminum fan, but it's effective. This Tiagra hydraulic groupset is slightly worse than my experience with 105 5800. The shifting is decent, but the rear derailleur shifts in steps. Shifting up into higher gears only takes two steps: shift, then wait a half second for the derailleur to move the chain out. But shifting down into easier gears is a three step affair: shift, wait, hear the derailleur move in, then hear the chain follow it over to the larger cog. Everything happens in clunks and it's frustratingly the loudest part of the bike, other than freewheeling. But again, it works every time.
Now the good! I am an experienced recreational cyclist and have ridden bikes most of my life. But I'm an ebike n00b. The few months I had a RadCity, I'll admit I used it as a low-speed scooter with almost all throttle. It's just too heavy and cumbersome to work as a bicycle, especially loaded down with pannier bags. The Civante is in no way like that. This has a motor. It feels mechanical. It's got a soft hum at lower speeds that gets progressively louder and higher pitched the harder you lean on it. And it's right there underneath you. The engagement between you and the motor reminds me of driving a really engaging manual transmission car, but this requires more physical effort, which I actually really like. Being engaged and feeling like you've got to expend some effort to hit those higher speeds is a good thing.
Which is probably the reason why this bike exists: I can confirm, it goesto 11, er 28mph. I've got to push to get up to the limit, but not nearly as hard as I would on my regular road bike. The torque makes holding 20-23 in standard or high hilariously fun. I found myself holding 20 going up fairly stiff hills, at one point effortlessly passing an acoustic cyclist huffing his way up. I also only have one 18 mile ride on it, but I can already tell I'll never need the 34t chainring. I spent most of the ride in the four or five smallest cogs. It feels like half the effort to go twice the speed of my regular bikes. Exactly what I wanted in a bike I'm mostly going to use as a commuter to get to and from work faster and easier. But it wears the weight most when making quick maneuvers. I'm going to have to learn to think ahead and throw my weight around more. I can't think it around a tight bend like I can my 20(ish) pound road bike. That said, even though I built my road bike from a bare frame and cherish it, this is by far the coolest thing I own.
The infamous third-floor.
First the bad, because overall it's very good. My biggest criticism is that, as a bicycle, it's fine. Not great, not terrible, everything works and there aren't any parts that are obviously bad or insufficient. I'm not an aluminum fan, but it's effective. This Tiagra hydraulic groupset is slightly worse than my experience with 105 5800. The shifting is decent, but the rear derailleur shifts in steps. Shifting up into higher gears only takes two steps: shift, then wait a half second for the derailleur to move the chain out. But shifting down into easier gears is a three step affair: shift, wait, hear the derailleur move in, then hear the chain follow it over to the larger cog. Everything happens in clunks and it's frustratingly the loudest part of the bike, other than freewheeling. But again, it works every time.
Now the good! I am an experienced recreational cyclist and have ridden bikes most of my life. But I'm an ebike n00b. The few months I had a RadCity, I'll admit I used it as a low-speed scooter with almost all throttle. It's just too heavy and cumbersome to work as a bicycle, especially loaded down with pannier bags. The Civante is in no way like that. This has a motor. It feels mechanical. It's got a soft hum at lower speeds that gets progressively louder and higher pitched the harder you lean on it. And it's right there underneath you. The engagement between you and the motor reminds me of driving a really engaging manual transmission car, but this requires more physical effort, which I actually really like. Being engaged and feeling like you've got to expend some effort to hit those higher speeds is a good thing.
Which is probably the reason why this bike exists: I can confirm, it goes
FlatSix911
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- Silicon Valley
Congratulations on your new Civante and thanks for the review.
FlatSix911
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Agreed. It's pretty easy to upgrade the groupset and change to a single front chainring... might be worth the investment to you.
Iridebikez
Member
I don't anticipate using the small chainring in almost any situation, so this is effectively a 1x for me. Which is good because if it actually came as a 1x my highest gear would be something like 48x11. As it is, it goes to 50x11, which actually feels useful due to how all the sensors work. Pedaling at that slower cadence feels more natural at higher speeds for me.
Which leaves the rear derailleur as the part that's letting me down. Not that I've been looking, but upgrading it to 105 is only about $60. Along with a rack and fenders, it's near the top of my list.
Yeah that was probably going to be my plan. Just leave it on the large ring and treat it as a 1x. The "zero start" sensor to engage the motor makes it doable from stops in town.
Saratoga Dave
Well-Known Member
I've had mine a month now and am closing in on 500 miles. I find more issues with the front derailleur, but the back shifts pretty well. It might clunk a bit at times, but I'm not experiencing the wait and see thing that you are. Maybe get a couple hundred miles on it and adjust the indexing or the cable.
We don't have any Rockies around here, but we do have the Adirondacks, which can be pretty steep and abrupt at times. I am definitely glad to have that 34 ring on occasion, though I do spend most time on the 50.
These are terrific bikes! Hope you like yours as much as I do.
We don't have any Rockies around here, but we do have the Adirondacks, which can be pretty steep and abrupt at times. I am definitely glad to have that 34 ring on occasion, though I do spend most time on the 50.
These are terrific bikes! Hope you like yours as much as I do.
Iridebikez
Member
It is possible that I need to dial in the derailleur a bit more, and fiddling with it is always free. As I said, it functions well but not as smoothly as I'm used to. I am hoping to take it on longer 100+ mile rides along the front range and into higher elevation, so in that scenario the 34t will get used. But on my daily commute in and around Denver I don't think I'll need it.
WattsUpDude
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- San Francisco, Bay Area
My rear derailleur was perfectly tuned from the shop. But after just 200 miles, I definitely had to do some adjustments. Living in the hilly SF Bay Area, I've definitely used the small chainring on more than a few occasions though I don't really need the combination of small chainring and bigger cogs at all. The motor makes more than enough torque to power through any of the gnarly hills I've put it on. I'd probably be very happy with a 1x 40T chainring for the range of riding that I do.
Well, I took the Civante back out for another 45 minute spin. I live in Portland, OR and did a 10 mile sprint to the top of Mt. Tabor and back. I put the front derailleur on the big ring and just left it there. I did about 800ft of climb with it on the big ring and the bike didn't break a sweat. After coming from rear hub entry level bikes weighing 65 to 100 pounds (loaded up) this thing feels like a sports car. So light and nimble and the motor just pulls so smoothly. Once I stopped fretting the front gears, I was fine. I did have two instances of gear slips when climbing. It dropped a gear both times under torque when climbing. So that's something to keep an eye on.
I've got a deposit down on a large frame. I'd love to keep it clean and not put a rack and fenders, but it's Portland, so fenders are a must 6+ months out of the year. The front is a bit punishing on bumpy roads. I'm probably going to add a shock stop stem to dampen things a bit. I also need to get better pedals because the cheap ones they put on there are way too narrow for my size of feet. Will probably add my suntour suspension post to it too.
I'll be pushing 80-100 miles a week on it, so eventually I'll wear out the OEM tires and will move to wider, all road tire that can do light gravel work.
It's a weird market bike, but here's what drew me to it:
- Class 3 is great to have, even if you don't use it
- The motor is excellent, especially at the price point. Coming from class 2 with a throttle I was worried. I was wrong. This thing is blisteringly quick from a stop. I can hit 20MPH before I get through an intersection. It's crazy how smooth it is getting there.
- At 44 pounds it's not light, but it's not a 65 pound chonker either. I can easily put it on a bike rack or hang it on the wall in the garage
- At $3400 there's not much else out there that is really similar. Great Mid drive motor, class 3, not 65 pounds, excellent warranty
I hopefully take delivery next week
I've got a deposit down on a large frame. I'd love to keep it clean and not put a rack and fenders, but it's Portland, so fenders are a must 6+ months out of the year. The front is a bit punishing on bumpy roads. I'm probably going to add a shock stop stem to dampen things a bit. I also need to get better pedals because the cheap ones they put on there are way too narrow for my size of feet. Will probably add my suntour suspension post to it too.
I'll be pushing 80-100 miles a week on it, so eventually I'll wear out the OEM tires and will move to wider, all road tire that can do light gravel work.
It's a weird market bike, but here's what drew me to it:
- Class 3 is great to have, even if you don't use it
- The motor is excellent, especially at the price point. Coming from class 2 with a throttle I was worried. I was wrong. This thing is blisteringly quick from a stop. I can hit 20MPH before I get through an intersection. It's crazy how smooth it is getting there.
- At 44 pounds it's not light, but it's not a 65 pound chonker either. I can easily put it on a bike rack or hang it on the wall in the garage
- At $3400 there's not much else out there that is really similar. Great Mid drive motor, class 3, not 65 pounds, excellent warranty
I hopefully take delivery next week
Iridebikez
Member
Nice! I have similar thoughts about it, too. On my ride in to work this morning I had it in STD assist and easily followed two (matching!) spandex roadies holding 22-26 along the bike path. Got to work at least 10 minutes faster than I ever could have under my own power and hadn't broken a sweat. I actually found the gears were better today than my first ride; perhaps they had some breaking in to do. It's an odd proposition from a bicycle perspective but the electric drivetrain is so good and so powerful it almost doesn't matter what they attach it to.
I followed WattsUpDude's lead and ordered the Axiom Streamliner DLX rack and some fenders as well. The ShockStop stem is probably next, cheaper and much easier than a better fork. Congrats on your new bike, you'll love it!
I followed WattsUpDude's lead and ordered the Axiom Streamliner DLX rack and some fenders as well. The ShockStop stem is probably next, cheaper and much easier than a better fork. Congrats on your new bike, you'll love it!
It's a *very* different bike in standard mode. I'm in decent shape and tend to keep my pedal assist low so I did a lot in Eco/Eco+. But for fun I put it in standard and it's a wildly different experience. Like you said, it really doesn't care what gear you are in, it just pulls. With zero speed sensor + standard mode and this thing launches from a stop. It was not something I was expecting.
WattsUpDude
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nice!
right now i have SKS blue mels fenders. they do the job but aren't that great looking. i'm considering changing them up to the SKS al setup. they look like factory fenders.
Iridebikez
Member
Those look nice. I went with more generic Planet Bike fenders with wrap-around stays. Not as easy to adjust as the bluemels but I like the look better. I think I should be able to squeeze 37s or 38s under there, which is all I think I'll ever need.
WattsUpDude
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