A Couple of Bosch Drive System Issues

[Lumos]

Yes, that ride is one of my favourites. we live about four months of the year in Denver, enough to justify another bike there. I recall the signs say Mesa and I thought that MTB Project used the tautology but it is a great ride up and I love the loop around the mesa and the views of Denver.

 

[NoDTMF]

RE: I broke down this morning and ordered a Rotwild E1+ FS 27.5 but I am assuming that EddieJ will pay half as he suggested it to me in this topic.

Wow, cool and intense bike. I think we lost EddieJ on this forum, so might have to find him on another forum in the UK to get the pay-off

 

[Lumos]

Yes, I get my bike muddy. I honestly thought that was acceptable for mountain bikes. I read nothing in the manuals or marketing literature that suggested otherwise. But as my Bosch motor is heading back to Bosch for a rebuild and with all my other bearings that need replacement I suspect that you are right. These are essentially dry weather bikes and they are superb in those conditions.

 

[stevenast]

Yes, I get my bike muddy. I honestly thought that was acceptable for mountain bikes. I read nothing in the manuals or marketing literature that suggested otherwise. But as my Bosch motor is heading back to Bosch for a rebuild and with all my other bearings that need replacement I suspect that you are right. These are essentially dry weather bikes and they are superb in those conditions.

+1

 

[Bike_On]

Court,
Thanks for posting openly about the Bosch design and chain suck. When new things come out, we really do not know the long tern issue until some time has lapsed.

Bosch has chosen to derive their torque directly from the motor speed, which necessitates a small chain ring. Other mid drives, like impulse and Optibike also run high RPMs for torque and drop the speed to the chain ring via planetary gears. The Bosch needs a step up gear for the pedals, while Optibike is 1:1 pedaling freewheel. I'm assuming about Impulse 2 internal gears.

What I'm saying is differnt system transfer the torque differently, but ultimately get the same result .

I think the best fix for mud riding is a larger chainring design.

When I first saw the Haibike/Bosch design, I questioned the stress of the chain line, but thought it a novel idea for ground clearance. Let's hope they create another novel solution and support their Gen 2 design .

 

[stevenast]

Court,
Thanks for posting openly about the Bosch design and chain suck. When new things come out, we really do not know the long tern issue until some time has lapsed.

Bosch has chosen to derive their torque directly from the motor speed, which necessitates a small chain ring. Other mid drives, like impulse and Optibike also run high RPMs for torque and drop the speed to the chain ring via planetary gears. The Bosch needs a step up gear for the pedals, while Optibike is 1:1 pedaling freewheel. I'm assuming about Impulse 2 internal gears.

What I'm saying is differnt system transfer the torque differently, but ultimately get the same result .

I think the best fix for mud riding is a larger chainring design.

When I first saw the Haibike/Bosch design, I questioned the stress of the chain line, but thought it a novel idea for ground clearance. Let's hope they create another novel solution and support their Gen 2 design .

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the chain issue you mention only applied to the full suspension bikes, correct? And especially those used in extreme conditions.

So, no need for others (not you) to put down the entire bosch system...

 

[NoDTMF]

Hey Court,

I think I get your points, but not sure. In a dry environment, it seems the Bosch design is pretty good. I have read that the front sprocket wears more quickly than normal (it costs $20.00 in the US) and the chain stretches. At 600 miles on my bike (which is different than the Haibike design, no little guide sprocket) my chain stretch is under .5 (using Park tool) and front sprocket and rear cassette look fine.

So for commuting and some dry off-road I am pretty impressed with the Bosch Gen 2 system. I have taken my bike on some rough terrain and steep trails.

I look forward to Lumos's reports on his new bike. I wish EddieJ would return to the forums as well. It will be good to understand what type of bikes can withstand the mud tortures you subject your bikes to!

 

[Shea N Encinitas]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the chain issue you mention only applied to the full suspension bikes, correct? And especially those used in extreme conditions.

Not necessarily, with the tight fitting thick/thin chainring this can happen on hardtail models too (given enough muck). When I replaced my chain at first I thought it was the wrong one and did not fit, but when I happened to index it fwd one link it fell into place. I've never seen this design before. -S

 

[stevenast]

some full suspension ebikes like the Haibike FS 27.5" have introduced a chain routing system called a Sprocket Equalizing System (S.E.S.) that's basically a pulley wheel which link the chain up and around the pivot point.

The OP seems to be referring only to a special pulley system on the full suspension bikes.

Then he goes on to cite and show photos of this part coated in mud, after being subjected to a type of extreme use that many of us would never dream of doing to an expensive electric bike.

I believe that an inadvertent side issue, due to the widely-recognized expertise of the OP, @Court , is that readers of this thread are coming away with an idea of unreliability of the Bosch system.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as Bosch has one of the highest quality motor / battery systems in the e-bike world. Few problems and excellent reliability. I think the experts on this site would agree.

 

[Bike_On]

Yes, I get my bike muddy. I honestly thought that was acceptable for mountain bikes. I read nothing in the manuals or marketing literature that suggested otherwise. But as my Bosch motor is heading back to Bosch for a rebuild and with all my other bearings that need replacement I suspect that you are right. These are essentially dry weather bikes and they are superb in those conditions.

The OP seems to be referring only to a special pulley system on the full suspension bikes.

Then he goes on to cite and show photos of this part coated in mud, after being subjected to a type of extreme use that many of us would never dream of doing to an expensive electric bike.

I believe that an inadvertent side issue, due to the widely-recognized expertise of the OP, @Court , is that readers of this thread are coming away with an idea of unreliability of the Bosch system.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as Bosch has one of the highest quality motor / battery systems in the e-bike world. Few problems and excellent reliability. I think the experts on this site would agree.

 

[Bike_On]

Steve,
The system is reliable and a solid design. The issue is that the small sprocket appears to susceptible to chain suck when used in very muddy conditions . At least two owners have posted such. Take it for what it is.
Bike_on

 

[NoDTMF]

So changing the subject slightly...its going to rain in the Bay area tomorrow (go figure...we are in drought situation) and I will not be riding. I will strip down my bike to better understand the weather sealing. Somewhere buried in the threads someone mentioned they oiled the bearings on the Bosch motor. If that is true, then that implies the bearings are not sealed. But that contradicts what I been reading in that there are no serviceable parts on the Bosch motor....if they are not serviceable they should be sealed.

I'd be happy for anyone to shed some light on the subject, but I'll have a look tomorrow.

Philosophically speaking, if you expose a normal bike's bottom bracket to water and mud, it will fail (well... fail in that the bearings will quit doing their job). So why is that any different for a bottom bracket that contains a motor...any manufacturer's motor?

I wonder if the issue is because we are paying much more money then for a normal bike? I originally bought my bike for commuting and now I am discovering how much more capable it is. But my expectations are much lower than those like to ride in mud. I will never ride it in the harsh situations that we've seen posted here, but wow it sure must be nice to get through that stuff with some boost. Therefore, I fully understand the hardcore biker's dilemma...they want the extra power because they are in the worst conditions where its needed. And maybe Hub motors are the way to go, but for my riding is mid-drive all they way!

 

[stevenast]

Couple all that with a light engine and excellent support from Bosch, and you've got a winner

Agreed!

 

[Bike_On]

Both owners that you're referring to coated their bikes - chain, gears, motor, battery - in mud. Most owners would not subject their e-bikes to this extreme use. They would have more sense that that.

You can tell by the photos posted by at least one of the members you're referring to, that the bike was abused. I would be appalled if my bike ever looked like that.

It is like taking a water-resistant watch and swimming in the ocean with it, and then wondering why it stops ticking.

Who really thinks that flinging mud on a bike until you can't even find the derailleur is going to be good for it?

__________________________

My point is that the people who read this forum are seeing a disproportionate amount of Bosch bashing by just a few people. I think that needs to be addressed.

I agree it is a reliable and solid design. That isn't the message radiating from this thread.

You say "take it for what it is". If I say what it is, someone might take it personally. Let's just say owners need to use good judgement, and readers of this thread can determine for themselves which owners have not done that.

Hey Steve,

Do you have some kind of a business interest with Bosch bikes? Or, is it that you just think very highly of them? You seem pretty vigilent to cover over this issue and defend their unforeseen applocation flaw.

Just asking.

My occasional support and defense of Optibike is because I owned one from 2008-2012 and was a big supporter and First adapter. I was an "ambassador" that resulted in zero commission, but all part of the early mainstreaming of the modern, reliable ebike class, IMO. What we have shown on this forum is a magnitude better than the cheap-made options before 2010-2011. I consider Optibike ahead of the curve back then. Still to pricy for most.

 

[stevenast]

Hey Steve,

Do you have some kind of a business interest with Bosch bikes? Or, is it that you just think very highly of them? You seem pretty vigilent to cover over this issue and defend their unforeseen applocation flaw.

Q1- No. I don't have any involvement with Bosch, Haibike or any bike/ebike sales. I own one, that I bought and ride, for pleasure (not a commuter).

Thank you for asking! Some people on here have a financial stake in their posts - nothing wrong with that, but let's just disclose it when self-interest is a motive behind posts!

Q2 - I think fairly highly of Bosch and Haibike. Only because they deserve it. I most likely will be a supporter of Yamaha when they get to the US. I would ride a Felt MTB in an instant.The Trek Powerfly+ looks great too... and there's some other European bikes I'm sure I would be happy to have as well.

I like value and quality. I like mid-drive (reasons on request, too long for this).

______________

So what is the motive for my "vigilant" defense of Bosch?

Simple, although some self-centered people might have a hard time understanding.

When I was first shopping for an e-bike, I read all these forums. Now I'm thinking about other people who are reading these forums. I simply want them to hear the truth, not some vendetta against Bosch by somebody who irresponsibly abused their bike and now it doesn't work.

Truth is my motive. Period.

 

[stevenast]

This is my full "inventory" of Bosch/Haibike equipment. I'm proud to be an owner of an Rx 29.

And it is NOT for sale!

 

[Bike_On]

Q1- No. I don't have any involvement with Bosch, Haibike or any bike/ebike sales. I own one, that I bought and ride, for pleasure (not a commuter).

Thank you for asking! Some people on here have a financial stake in their posts - nothing wrong with that, but let's just disclose it when self-interest is a motive behind posts!

Q2 - I think fairly highly of Bosch and Haibike. Only because they deserve it. I most likely will be a supporter of Yamaha when they get to the US. I would ride a Felt MTB in an instant.The Trek Powerfly+ looks great too... and there's some other European bikes I'm sure I would be happy to have as well.

I like value and quality. I like mid-drive (reasons on request, too long for this).

______________

So what is the motive for my "vigilant" defense of Bosch?

Simple, although some self-centered people might have a hard time understanding.

When I was first shopping for an e-bike, I read all these forums. Now I'm thinking about other people who are reading these forums. I simply want them to hear the truth, not some vendetta against Bosch by somebody who irresponsibly abused their bike and now it doesn't work.

Truth is my motive. Period.

It sounds like you are very well read on the mid-drives.

Have you ridden and Impulse II system? Optibike System? 8fun bb01 or 02?

I started with a 250W Panasonic, 156 Whr, 24V, 6.5 ahr mid drive in 2006-2008.

 

[Bike_On]

It sounds like you are very well read on the mid-drives.

Have you ridden and Impulse II system? Optibike System? 8fun bb01 or 02?

I started with a 250W Panasonic, 156 Whr, 24V, 6.5 ahr mid drive in 2006-2008.

ps. It is natural to like and support what we own.

 

[Bike_On]

PS - some people try to minimize the statements of others with something like you just said above.

Bosch IS quality, so I bought it....NOT I think it's quality BECAUSE I bought it.

I agree . Bosch is not quality just because you think it is it because you bought it.

Performance data and time proves the quality, not your opinion or mine.

 

[Bike_On]

PS - some people try to minimize the statements of others with something like you just said above.

Bosch IS quality, so I bought it....NOT I think it's quality BECAUSE I bought it.

You miss my other point. People tend to defend what they own more than warranted, IMO. People have an emotional attachment to what they owned and like.