A Couple of Bosch Drive System Issues

[stevenast]

OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/bosch-ebike-system-reliability.1297/

(edit, oops, actually the first and third posts) on this thread present both sides. The first is a bike shop with significant Bosch sales AND service experience. The third is an individual, with experiece soaking and coating his e-bike with mud. I leave it to the reader to decide who is a credible judge of Bosch reliability and who is not. If you want some good insight, read the posts using your critical thinking skills!

 

[Bike_On]

Any avid mtn biker, who like off road, all terrain, expecting mud and water, head to toe, knows he/she has to clean and maintain their bike and gear. Such a rider will expect an off road ebike to do the same, less deep water holes, and expect to clean and maintain. This includes the known/accepted risk of faster wear and tear on the bike.
However, if he buys a bike with a Bosch mid drive and small chain ring sprocket, the evidence appears to suggest his risk of damage will increase if he rides like his "normal" mtn biking. If he buys an ebike with a large sprocket, like E3 Peak, Focus Thron or Optibike, he won't have that added risk and he can enjoy his ride with less worry of damage. He will still wear his bike faster due to the conditions, but accepts that part of enjoying the bike and sport.
Where is the line where our repair dollars start to multiply? From this thread, I hope we see better that the line is different for each bike, depending upon the design and quality of the bike. Bosch bikes will have issues in heavy mud. Other ebikes won't. It is that simple.

 

[grench]

Well the overpriced Chinese knockoff doesn't wrap the chain up while cruising through mud...it just keeps on 'knocking'...lol

I wonder if this could be referred to as 'Reliability'?

 

[Lumos]

I popped over to Boulder, Colorado to test the Optibike R8HD at their factory/shop. I stuck the Rohloff in 9th gear and opened the throttle and the thing took off. It was well equipped, well made and just down the road for service. Talking to the engineers they said that their aim was to make a bike as close to a motor bike whilst staying within the letter of the e-bike law (he probably said 'while' not 'whilst', however). That they have achieved this is in no doubt, but it did not appear to have anything to do with cycling. Cycling it manually was unrewarding and uninvolving. With no pedelec just a twist throttle I got no joy from the machine. And it weighed a ton. For people commuting with electric power it may be just the ticket.

I am struggling to find a system that is as much fun, as responsive and natural as the Bosch. My dealer actually suggested that I buy a Yamaha powered Haibike for the winter, and keep the AMT Pros for the dry weather. In the UK, if stevenast's counsel is to be followed there may be 25 days of the year that we could use our mountain bikes off road. This is not a mud fixation it is a desire to cycle every day and I prefer to do it where there is no traffic. If that means I have to change my bearings on the bike every year then that seems reasonable. Spending £1000 a year on SRAM XX0 gear is not. That geared output chainwheel turning 2.5 times faster than the pedal flexes slightly at the bearing under load and allows water in and leads to failure. Having Bosch replace the motor every year out of warranty is not acceptable. There is a large drain hole at the bottom of the plastic motor casing that fills up with dirty water from the front wheel when driving on the road in the rain. It starts grating like it is full of gravel and I have to hose it out to make it stop. The problems seem to centre around all the technology that they have introduced in the Generation 2 performance line. Unless I can find something as fun to ride I guess I will continue to ride where I want, continue to clean and maintain my bike meticulously and continue to pay for repairs. I have no doubt that we will see a revision to this approach and that the next generation is better.

 

[stevenast]

I popped over to Boulder, Colorado to test the Optibike R8HD at their factory/shop.

What does that go for retail?

 

[Lumos]

What does that go for retail?

About $12k I recall.

 

[Bike_On]

I popped over to Boulder, Colorado to test the Optibike R8HD at their factory/shop. I stuck the Rohloff in 9th gear and opened the throttle and the thing took off. It was well equipped, well made and just down the road for service. Talking to the engineers they said that their aim was to make a bike as close to a motor bike whilst staying within the letter of the e-bike law (he probably said 'while' not 'whilst', however). That they have achieved this is in no doubt, but it did not appear to have anything to do with cycling. Cycling it manually was unrewarding and uninvolving. With no pedelec just a twist throttle I got no joy from the machine. And it weighed a ton. For people commuting with electric power it may be just the ticket.

I am struggling to find a system that is as much fun, as responsive and natural as the Bosch. My dealer actually suggested that I buy a Yamaha powered Haibike for the winter, and keep the AMT Pros for the dry weather. In the UK, if stevenast's counsel is to be followed there may be 25 days of the year that we could use our mountain bikes off road. This is not a mud fixation it is a desire to cycle every day and I prefer to do it where there is no traffic. If that means I have to change my bearings on the bike every year then that seems reasonable. Spending £1000 a year on SRAM XX0 gear is not. That geared output chainwheel turning 2.5 times faster than the pedal flexes slightly at the bearing under load and allows water in and leads to failure. Having Bosch replace the motor every year out of warranty is not acceptable. There is a large drain hole at the bottom of the plastic motor casing that fills up with dirty water from the front wheel when driving on the road in the rain. It starts grating like it is full of gravel and I have to hose it out to make it stop. The problems seem to centre around all the technology that they have introduced in the Generation 2 performance line. Unless I can find something as fun to ride I guess I will continue to ride where I want, continue to clean and maintain my bike meticulously and continue to pay for repairs. I have no doubt that we will see a revision to this approach and that the next generation is better.

Lum,
Most guys who ride Optis off road use the Eco mode. Still, no pas, only throttle.

 

[NoDTMF]

@Lumos

Nice report. Couple questions or comments. For water drainage, could you just cut away the plastic on the bottom to let the water escape freely? I hear your point about shaft flex, but that is common any many motor designs and I'm thinking the problem is a poorly designed seal. Hopefully Bosch could just upgrade the seal.

I can't remember, have you suffered chain wrap like Eddie has?

 

[Lumos]

Yes, I have suffered from chain suck very many times and have replaced two SRAM XX0 derailleurs, one cassette, one chain ring, one SES sprocket and one chain and needed two of the Crank Bros Iodine wheel rebuilds. I sometimes have used my derailleur alignment gauge after every ride to get it straight. Looking at the Rotwild, that bike has a much more robust derailleur hanger than the one on my Haibike AMT Pro. Bosch are aware of the problem as they are seeing a significant number of motors coming back for replacement. I too am confident that they will upgrade the seal on the bearing. The plastic actually does have a large square hole in the bottom and that is where all the dirty water gets in.

 

[Lumos]

Lum,
Most guys who ride Optis off road use the Eco mode. Still, no pas, only throttle.

Makes sense, and it is a hugely efficient off road vehicle. Trouble is with 165Nm of torque one's own effort is but a footnote but it can sure haul itself up anything with enough adhesion for the rear wheel.

 

[Bike_On]

Makes sense, and it is a hugely efficient off road vehicle. Trouble is with 165Nm of torque one's own effort is but a footnote but it can sure haul itself up anything with enough adhesion for the rear wheel.

That 165nm number, is that at full 850W of power? How did you get that number? I have (had) experienced the Opti torque and always wondered what the measured value during acceleration actually is.

The Opti guys really need a PAS system. I am surprised they expressed the intent to operate more like a motorbike than a bicycle. I never heard that when I dealt with them. 2007-2012. One reason I went with Opti was that it really could do-it-all better than other options. Put on street tires and kick up the speed to 25-30mph with quality brakes and suspension, and a 20-26Ahr battery for range. Put on knobbies and go off road with Fox Talas and float shocks. Water tight, NO chain suck, hydraulic brakes, and a big battery - 26ahr. It can handle real mtn biking.

I think the advantage of the Haibike is the improved mid drive controls, shift sensing, great human/machine rhythm. Bosch seems to have set the bar and found the sweet spot power level for trail riding at 350W via mid drive. That seems to satisfy. If Opti would add a PAS system, keep their eco mode (300-400W), and insert a comparable battery at 13ahrs, then their weight in on par with Haibike and the component just as good, AND maybe cheaper with less lithium. The key is the PAS system, and I haven't heard a peep about any investment there.

 

[Lumos]

The figures are straight from their website. Here is the link http://optibike.com/optibike-r8hd/

Having ridden it I have no cause to doubt the 165Nm, and it is worlds higher than my Bafang 750W fat bike. I suspect that they are better at electro mechanics than the electronics needed for torque sensing algorithms. They would have been such a great solution for me as I could have ridden it home. I loved so much about it but can only imagine the abuse I would have received riding that around the bike paths round Boulder. I personally love the feel of cycling with Bosch. They just need to keep the accountants out of the engineering decisions.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The figures are straight from their website. Here is the link http://optibike.com/optibike-r8hd/

Having ridden it I have no cause to doubt the 165Nm, and it is worlds higher than my Bafang 750W fat bike. I suspect that they are better at electro mechanics than the electronics needed for torque sensing algorithms. They would have been such a great solution for me as I could have ridden it home. I loved so much about it but can only imagine the abuse I would have received riding that around the bike paths round Boulder. I personally love the feel of cycling with Bosch. They just need to keep the accountants out of the engineering decisions.

You would truly love the M1 Spitzing.
It's like Opti with PAS. 120Nm of torque and phenomenal acceleration. They have decided not to bring it to the US market but you might be able to get it in UK. PM me if you would like their EU contact.

I had so much fun on this....Riding this thing was like bikegasm......

 

[Bike_On]

I loved so much about it but can only imagine the abuse I would have received riding that around the bike paths round Boulder.

I thought I read that Boulder has outlawed all ebikes on public bike paths? Not really friendly for the home of an ebike pioneering company and other ebike shops.

 

[Lumos]

I know that Boulder decided to allow them on a year's trial that ended on 31 Dec 2014 but I have not heard the results nor do I know if it was continued or not.

 

[Lumos]

You would truly love the M1 Spitzing.
It's like Opti with PAS. 120Nm of torque and phenomenal acceleration. They have decided not to bring it to the US market but you might be able to get it in UK. PM me if you would like their EU contact.

I had so much fun on this....Riding this thing was like bikegasm......
View attachment 2884

That may be the answer to my dreams. I have the Nuvinci on my fatbike and I am amazed that they can feed 120Nm torque through it, it is rated for much lower torque. I would go for a normally geared version. I will continue to look into it. So much depends on the feel of the torque response of the peddle system. I will PM you if I cannot find the distributor.

 

[Lumos]

@stevenast
My information was based on the percentage being sent back by dealers to Bosch. What I don't know is how accurately they counted, if their customers' use is representative or if there are geographical differences (e.g. UK vs US). For that reason I did to want to quote figures as it may paint an excessively harsh or lenient view. I find it discourteous when you call me a basher. I have bought three Bosch Haibikes in the last year and after my first experience of the Rotwild I may be adding a fourth Haibike (a 2015 Xduro Nduro Pro). I would like you to find another user who has demonstrated a greater commitment to the Bosch system. I have tried to paint a balanced view based on a realistic expectation of the bikes derived from the marketing literature and the dealers. I have repeatedly stated the areas where I have found Bosch to represent the best of implementations yet you seem compelled to respond to any criticism of Bosch. Accordingly I will bow out of this forum and leave you to your mission.

 

[Brambor]

stay. there are worst things to bow out of.

 

[NoDTMF]

@lumas I look forward to reading your reports...please stay.

 

[opimax]

I don't have a dog in this race, not an off road biker but find this thread becoming "un EBR like" . This a very pleasant forum that is very diverse. One individual should not be able to drive (does bully seem appropriate) someone to disappear because they don't like the posting. Your opinion hasn't changed you posted it, move on. Start your own thread and post your opinion . "bosh makes the best bikes" would have more effect on the net perception then hammering away on an existing thread you don't like or agree with.

I have no issue w/any individual here just the tone

All this is my opinion you may not agree, i am ok with that