A Couple of Bosch Drive System Issues

[Mike leroy]

Just a few slightly dirty puddles can be enough to cause it.

Clumps of mud don't tend to really create too much of an issue, but add a bit of water and it's then a different story. It's created as soon as the chain becomes slightly tacky, which in the winter is most of the time.

Does the tooth design cause the problem? Does a thicker or thinner tooth make any difference? Would you void the warranty by replacing the sprocket?

Can you apply any chemicals to fix the problem, like spraying Teflon?

I climbed down a steep mud embankment today. It took an hour to get all the dirt off my body and clothes.

I have a hard time believing Bosch or Haibike has not recalled the motors. One big liability suit will hurt profits and brand reputation. If enough publicity happens, it could result in more legislation and restrictions.

Is this a issue between the two companies?

 

[EddieJ]

From what I have read this an across board issue, and has been reported on a couple of forums now. So pretty much any manufacturer that is using the Bosch Performance and I guess Active line motor could have issues.
I have had personal contact with a Haibike owner that has been suffering with it, and also a Lapierre owner. Sadly the Haibike owner has twice suffered some pretty extensive damage to his bike through it.

It's 100% the small sprocket size that is the issue. None of my previous bikes with a large sprocket size ever suffered from it, and I guess that you only have to look at motocross bikes that have an underside chain tensioner to stop chain suck, to see that a small sprocket causes issues. I have removed my little mod that I made to prevent chain suck, and now that my motor is back in the bike, I'm currently trying a different sprocket and retainer, and will let you know when the results are in.

Another thing that has slowly become a pet hate of mine, is glancing down and seeing a chain that is hardly ever tracking in a straight line, and looking like a banana. No wonder mid drives potentially wear chains so rapidly, when they are having to work across such a wide ratio of gears on a rear cassette. Internally geared rear hubs should really be the way to go for midrive motors.

I also feel that the motors internal gearing is somehow wrong. Even with the smallest front sprocket of 15 teeth, far too much time is spent in the lowest of the rear cassettes first two gears. Many riders, again across brands, are swapping out the rear cassette for a 42 tooth lowest gear. You shouldn't need to be doing that.

I must admit, that I currently really don't have any faith or enthusiasm for this motor.

I know what you mean about muddy clothes. I have to do most of my riding in the evening/night time, and getting back indoors at gone 11.00pm soaking wet and muddy, is not a nice feeling. Roll on dry days and summer.

 

[John J.T.]

It takes less than a split second, for the drive to lock solid.
No warning is required, as it happens too fast to prevent it, but any rider is very lucky not to end up on either their backside or under passing traffic. It's a potentially lethal and dangerous design fault, and one that Bosch are choosing to ignore. I guess that is until someone is killed because of it.

A warning device would also simply be something else that might potentially go wrong*.


To extend the thread even further. I am now about to take delivery of my third battery in almost as many months! Bosch have been trying to get out of supplying the latest one, claiming that there is dirt inside of the battery case. This coming from a company that promotes the use of their products on e-mtb's and in extreme conditions. Clearly yet another example of poor design.



*Remember that we are talking about Bosch here.



.

 

[Mike leroy]

From what I have read this an across board issue, and has been reported on a couple of forums now. So pretty much any manufacturer that is using the Bosch Performance and I guess Active line motor could have issues.
I have had personal contact with a Haibike owner that has been suffering with it, and also a Lapierre owner. Sadly the Haibike owner has twice suffered some pretty extensive damage to his bike through it.

It's 100% the small sprocket size that is the issue. None of my previous bikes with a large sprocket size ever suffered from it, and I guess that you only have to look at motocross bikes that have an underside chain tensioner to stop chain suck, to see that a small sprocket causes issues. I have removed my little mod that I made to prevent chain suck, and now that my motor is back in the bike, I'm currently trying a different sprocket and retainer, and will let you know when the results are in.

Another thing that has slowly become a pet hate of mine, is glancing down and seeing a chain that is hardly ever tracking in a straight line, and looking like a banana. No wonder mid drives potentially wear chains so rapidly, when they are having to work across such a wide ratio of gears on a rear cassette. Internally geared rear hubs should really be the way to go for midrive motors.

I also feel that the motors internal gearing is somehow wrong. Even with the smallest front sprocket of 15 teeth, far too much time is spent in the lowest of the rear cassettes first two gears. Many riders, again across brands, are swapping out the rear cassette for a 42 tooth lowest gear. You shouldn't need to be doing that.

I must admit, that I currently really don't have any faith or enthusiasm for this motor.

I know what you mean about muddy clothes. I have to do most of my riding in the evening/night time, and getting back indoors at gone 11.00pm soaking wet and muddy, is not a nice feeling. Roll on dry days and summer.

My first impression of the Bosch motor was that of a "toy". My bias stems from mountain bikes. I could never accept the small sprocket. What really convinced me was watching video reviews. My eyes popped out of my head when I saw the chain bouncing around. Later, Haibike came out with their chain tensioner. I believe the Yamaha is a much better center drive. Yamaha maintained a traditional chainring.

I partly agree with IGH for center-drives. My main concern is shifting gears at low speeds on steep hills. However, the IGH cost is significant. A Rohloff 14 gear is about $1400. I question whether other IGHs can handle the 120 Nm on stronger drives like 8Fun BBS02.

My impression is Bosch got carried away with their sensors and software. The over-emphasis on 1,000 computer comparisons per second seems overkill. It seems like a slick way to sell expensive hardware. Yamaha's solution was an inexpensive torque sensor located in the pedal. Why is a bottom bracket torque sensor necessary, other than to sell expensive hardware. A solution that caused me to reject Bosch.

 

[Mike leroy]

I forgot to mention the Haibike Yamaha is called SDuro. The SDuro sells in Europe, but not N. america . If you compare Haibike Bosch XDuro with Yamaha SDuro, you will find SDuro has more features at a lower price.

The part that really got me was the Yamaha motor is more sophisticated. The bosch controller is so-called square-wave, which means most basic tech. The Yamaha controller is a sine-wave. Sine-wave motors have additional rotational position sensors in the motor, which square-wave motors lack. The controller delivers smoother power, more efficiently with better torque and acceleration. Go figure! I guess a company needs to build world class motorcycle motors before bicycle motors.

https://www.haibike.com/de/de

Oh yeah, another thing that I have expressed in the past. I wish the Germans would get over their over-engineering-Mercedes-BMW-Audi image. Stop trying to upsell naive Americans valueless status. Try to deliver value like the Japanese. Some people do want to buy Rollex watches to separate themselves from others. I just want to pedal 40 pounds of groceries up an 18% grade. All the status in the world does not help me up the steep hill.

I contacted Curry Tech and Haibike about Yamaha availability for USA. The response was two more product release years. They gave no explanation for the delay. Does not compute in any language.

 

[Shea N Encinitas]

The torque sensor (strain gauge) in the BB is awesome, 100 Hz is not really that fast in todays EE world, think of how much faster your CPU is running. I say it is awesome because the system never gives me that surge cycle that I have experienced on other e-bikes, rather it is very smooth and responsive. I've never sucked a chain and have only had a few glitches shifting when the drivetrain was in need of cleaning. I think the disappointed are those that over-estimated the capabilities of the system, and in fact most e-bikes in very muddy conditions. Maybe those folks should have got a Stealth bomber or built up a custom rig that is up to the task. Go ahead and hate on the Bosch, I support your freewill, but maybe let a little reality about your choices and decisions creep in, perhaps design a replacement motor or move up to class of e-bike (more like an e-motorcycle with pedals) that you can cover in mud, use and abuse as you prefer. -S

 

[Mike leroy]

The torque sensor (strain gauge) in the BB is awesome, 100 Hz is not really that fast in todays EE world, think of how much faster your CPU is running. I say it is awesome because the system never gives me that surge cycle that I have experienced on other e-bikes, rather it is very smooth and responsive. I've never sucked a chain and have only had a few glitches shifting when the drivetrain was in need of cleaning. I think the disappointed are those that over-estimated the capabilities of the system, and in fact most e-bikes in very muddy conditions. Maybe those folks should have got a Stealth bomber or built up a custom rig that is up to the task. Go ahead and hate on the Bosch, I support your freewill, but maybe let a little reality about your choices and decisions creep in, perhaps design a replacement motor or move up to class of e-bike (more like an e-motorcycle with pedals) that you can cover in mud, use and abuse as you prefer. -S

I have written software for 25 years in the Silicon Valley. I have been involved in a wide range of programming areas, from computer hardware at the Operating System level to graphical, user-friendly iPhone apps.

I think a BB torque sensor is poor economy, that I do not want to pay for. Does a much less expensive pedal-based or gear-based torque sensor suffice? Does the controller actually need to make hundreds of decisions every second? The point of diminishing returns is reached very quickly. Lots of data does not imply greater informational content. An inexpensive pedal or gear-based sensor may be all the information the controller needs to respond accurately and quickly.

 

[Brambor]

I can feel differences between ebike brands which I attribute to how the power management is implemented. I have actually ridden .how can you make such was judgement when you have never ridden an e bike?

.

 

[Mike leroy]

I can feel differences between ebike brands which I attribute to how the power management is implemented. I have actually ridden .how can you make such was judgement when you have never ridden an e bike?

.

Some judgments can be reasoned by comparing the performance of different hardware. If a Yamaha or Polaris torque sensor works as well as, or better than a Bosch sensor for a specific function, than a valid conclusion does not require riding time. Riding certainly is important for certain types of decisions, but not all comparisons.

Some of the riding information comes directly from video reviews. I do not have to ride the bike, if the evaluator is respected. I just need to pay close attention to the reviewers comments about a particular feature. Also, closely compare and contrast bikes in the videos as the reviewer physically activates that component. Some things like drivetrain function require observation, that are too difficult to see as the rider. Sure you will get feedback from the feel when pedaling. Some problems require seeing the problem as it happens, because feeling does not pinpoint the cause.

Have you ever completely rebuilt a car or motorcycle?

 

[Brambor]

Dude

I have rebuilt a moped. Does that count? You're too much.

Just for the record as emotions might not cone across well...i want to say i have no animosity towards you. I enjoy your presence here.

 

[Mike leroy]

Dude

I have rebuilt a moped. Does that count? You're too much.

Just for the record as emotions might not cone across well...i want to say i have no animosity towards you. I enjoy your presence here.

Brambor,

We have exchanged enough posts with each other. I think it is safe to say the positive feeling is mutual. No worries.

I admire your ability to commute so far on a regular basis. My neighborhood is conscipious by the absence of any type of bike. Only one friend dared to buy an eBike, which he sold to buy a scooter.

My road is scheduled for road calming. If the calming makes any type of bike practical, than I will definitely test ride bikes. Right now, it makes more sense to learn as much as possible about eBikes.

My area is also so steep that not many more people run than bike, either. I am glad that I ran in high school.

 

[Brambor]

I wonder if in such fringe commutes it is not better to build your own. You can add the power you want to the right bike you need. At the same time you will be able to fix and keep spare parts for repair.

 

[Mike leroy]

I wonder if in such fringe commutes it is not better to build your own. You can add the power you want to the right bike you need. At the same time you will be able to fix and keep spare parts for repair.

Yes, I will probably do just that. I want to replace my 2001 mini van, as much as possible. I have environmental and health/fitness issues with gas cars. I am willing to use the bus and train, too. Right now, the bus is unfortunately the best solution. I run instead of driving as much as possible.

I prefer to find a bike with a warranty and good local service. I expect to stress the bike. I would rather not take the risk. The EBike phenomenon is so new, that it takes time. I am patient.

My road is reverting to a single lane from a double lane, in both directions. That really opens up many ebike options. I simply cannot imagine how such a drastic traffic change will pan out. I simply have to wait and see. I think car commuters will revolt.

 

[Brambor]

There is a downside to this a such bikes look a bit "low rent"

You may lose a fraction of respect at your next code review meeting.

 

[Mike leroy]

There is a downside to this a such bikes look a bit "low rent"

You may lose a fraction of respect at your next code review meeting.

You are spot on. Due to my fitness level, most people think I am pulling their leg, when I introduce myself as a programmer. I do not fit the stereotypical image. Many people laugh and ask "Really?". Kinda funny.

Although, electric powered vehicles are super-hip. If I owned a Volt, BMW, etc..., and used both to commute , than it would be uber-cool. Go figure!

I have been considering moving to Portland. I fit in better in Portland, OR. Nike is located in Portland, which makes it the running Capitol of the USA. My happiness is most influenced by physical exercise. I have had enough of long car commutes. If getting to work must take a long time, then I must commute by my own power. Ebikes make the life change very attractive to me.

 

[Shea N Encinitas]

An inexpensive pedal or gear-based sensor may be all the information the controller needs to respond accurately and quickly.

Strain gauge torque sensors offer better granularity in the power curve over strictly mechanical solutions, this is beautifully illustrated in the Bosch controller by the power level indicator, and supported by the sampling rate. For the amount of time I spend on my e-bike I'm happy to pay more for the resulting performance. -S

 

[Mike leroy]

Strain gauge torque sensors offer better granularity in the power curve over strictly mechanical solutions, this is beautifully illustrated in the Bosch controller by the power level indicator, and supported by the sampling rate. For the amount of time I spend on my e-bike I'm happy to pay more for the resulting performance. -S

Yes, I see your point. The key is what makes for personal value. Sometimes, I wish cars had more gauges and less light indicators.

Do you know of any performance charts that Compare the sensitivity of the devices?

 

[Lumos]

When the Bosch system is working well it is a real delight. I have not ridden other Bosch bikes other than my two Haibike AMT Pros (one from excellent Chris Nolte in the US and one from the equally excellent Martin Brown in the UK). There is no doubt that the US bike ridden in the arid high dessert in Colorado is faring much better than the one that ploughs muddy furrows in Buckinghamshire in the UK. They are both a year old and the UK bike has needed both steerer bearings to be replaced, one wheel bearing is grinding and now there is an awful grinding sound from the motor when I pedal that is concerning. I just do not know what is reasonable. even tarmac paths in the winter have enough mud, leaves, sand, stones etc to create a thick thatch in the gears. Is this abuse or is it normal mountain bike conditions. I am sorely tempted by the Rotwild although anxious about the use of a derailleur still. But as my experience shows the whole bike does seem happier out of the goo. By the way, both times I needed a Crank Bros Iodine 2 wheel re-build due to the derailleur excursion into the spokes they used the same spokes. Three months after in the UK the spoke (actually the nipple) snapped at the point it had bent, and similarly at 6700ft at the top of a ridge in Colorado the nipple snapped again where it had been straightened. These spokes and nipples are so hard to find that I now keep a supply with me.

I would love to try the Rotwild as I would not want to give up the exceptionally smooth, organic responsiveness of the Bosch in the name of more torque. But retiring my Park Tools Alignment Gauge is appealing.

 

[NoDTMF]

Hi Lumos,

Nice post, butI am having trouble following some of it, specifically when the Bosch system is failing. With your US bike based bike, have you had any troubles with the Bosch system? Are you attributing broken spokes as a result of the Bosch drive? I ride in CA, we a currently in a 4 drought, so I guess I have ideal conditions for a muck free environment. At 600 miles I don't have any issues with the motor, Active line, or bike. I use the bike mostly for commute but it has seen two rather hard trail rides.

My bike was a demo bike from Europe, and as I have been taking it apart to inspect and clean, I have found mud everywhere, even in the battery connector.

Might be time to start a thread on E-bikes and wet muddy conditions to see how the different motors and bikes fair.

 

[Lumos]

I was once starting a climb up Mesa Table Mountain in Colorado when coming out the carpark on some dry hard packed double track my rear wheel locked solid and the rear mech was right into the spokes and the rear derailleur needed replacing (less then 100 miles) and the wheel needed re-building. Other than that my Colorado based bike runs perfectly. I still use the chain scrubber regularly and really Muck Off dry lube as the dust gets everywhere and the transmission gets noisy without. I broke down this morning and ordered a Rotwild E1+ FS 27.5 but I am assuming that EddieJ will pay half as he suggested it to me in this topic. Hopefully I will have our 5th electric bike in 14 months. Need to unload the Lectric Cycles 750w Fatbike. I will take the other AMT Pro to the US that seems better suited to its temperament.

I just want to cycle every day and prefer to do it off road. In England. In the rain.