90 miles per charge. Too good to be true?

[jobtraklite]

One of the brands in the "Brand & User Reviews" (virtual) subforum is eFlow. I believe eFlow or e-Flow is actually an ebike model produced by the brand "Young Electric". This confused me when I was trying to find information about eFlow, but should have been looking for Young Electric.

Now my question. I'm looking for a ebike to use for light (AKA credit card) touring, meaning I need a bike with a longer range than the 28 miles per charge of my current ebike. Several of Young Electric's models, including the Vie 27.5 step through, tout a range of 90 miles. The condition of the test weren't mentioned; but I assume they were the usual: flat terrain, smooth surface, light weight rider, no wind, PAS 1, etc. The Vie's vague specs are what I am looking for. But I wonder if a 90 mile range is really possible with a Mivice 350W Brushless Rear Hub motor and a 36 Volt, 10.4 AH Lithium-ion battery?

I could find only one review of this bike, and that very enthusiastic. It included "I took it on a 60 miles test run to start with. ... Don't believe I'll ever see 90 miles without recharging, as I really liked the highest boost level to keep me moving."

Now I can live with less than 90 miles in the real world; but I prefer not to deal with a company that lies.

 

[fooferdoggie]

with fat tires and 85 pounds I doubt it. with that small motor maybe. but thats a very heavy bike for such a small motor so hill climbing is going to be horrible and with that weight your going ot need a lot more assistance.

 

[scrambler]

You need a bike with a 1000Wh battery........
Or carry a spare battery in your backpack, assuming the bike has a removable battery and you can buy a spare

If this is the bike you are referring to

Young Electric E-Flow 750W Folding eBike | 20'' All-terrain Fat Tire With 48V20Ah BAFANG Battery, Up to 90 Miles, 28 MPH

E-Flow electric folding bike is easily for travel and city commuter. It is a fat tire foldable ebike with a 48V20Ah BAFANG removable battery.

youngelectricbikes.com

It says it has a 48V 20Ah, so 960Wh battery, fairly close to what you need

 

[harryS]

I'm looking at the link for your bike. What the heck. They say 90 miles is possible?

Young Electric Vie 27.5’’ Step-Through | 350W Ultra-Comfy Ebike, Up to 90 Miles, Torque Sensor | UL 2849 Safety Certified

City cruiser electric bicycles are comfortable. Designed for casual riding and most have a comfortable, upright riding position, and a large, comfortable seat.

youngelectricbikes.com

I have measured real world capacity on quite a few batteries, You only have to do a few to see how real world is 80-90% of paper ratings. I've also measured how much power/mile my ebikes use. I've owned a variety o ebikes, mid motor, hubmotor, torque and cadence sensors, skinny and fat tires. ANywhere from 5-15 wh/mile. Speed, weight and tires are the big variables,

That 36V10.4AH pack is 376 watt-hours on paper, but in my opinion derates to 300-320 watt-hours in real life. A bike like the step-thru Vie will probably do 8-10 WH/mile at 10-12 mph. I believe we're talking about up to 40 mile range. If you cut the speed down to 6-8 mph, maybe you approach 90 miles.

It's not strictly a lie, but marketing speak. My retired marketing friend told me how to tell when they lie. Whenever their lips move.

 

[jobtraklite]

A bike like the step-thru Vie will probably do 8-10 WH/mile at 10-12 mph. I believe we're talking about up to 40 mile range. If you cut the speed down to 6-8 mph, maybe you approach 90 miles.

Is it customary for an ebike seller to quote range based on 6-8 mph? I would think that the PAS level 1 speed was the norm. The Young Electric website didn't mention PAS levels and mph.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Besides assist level and battery watt-hours, real-world battery range depends on many non-electrical factors, including ground speed, rider posture and clothing, total weight, tire choice, pavement roughness, wind conditions, and slope. Also depends on the kind of assist (torque- vs cadence-sensing) and the rider's own power input during testing.

If manufacturers actually test range, they rarely share the test conditions. In a rational world, there'd be an industry-standard test protocol, but we don't live on that planet. Online reviewers are generally just as sloppy.

Forum posts from owners without explicit test conditions are also hard to transfer to your own riding conditions, but that's proably your least unreliable source on range.

Frustrating, I know, but that's the current state of the market.

with fat tires and 85 pounds I doubt it. with that small motor maybe. but thats a very heavy bike for such a small motor so hill climbing is going to be horrible and with that weight your going ot need a lot more assistance.

Agree. A 90-mile range on such a bike seems very unlikely — even under the most favorable test conditions.

 

[harryS]

Is it customary for an ebike seller to quote range based on 6-8 mph? I would think that the PAS level 1 speed was the norm. The Young Electric website didn't mention PAS levels and mph.

Most cadence sensor ebikes probably cannot go 6 mph, They probably have a minimum speed of at least 10 mph. So it's a moot point. If you get 90 miles on the Via, you had the motor turned down t PAS 0, and you were pumping the pedals.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I really liked the highest boost level to keep me moving."

Then no, you won't get close to 90 miles. If, on the other hand, you turn off the power and use nothing but human power, the range is unlimited except by your endurance. The company probably tested (if they tested at all) using something closer to the low end of battery assist.

Now I can live with less than 90 miles in the real world; but I prefer not to deal with a company that lies.

Well, they might not be lying, but they are most likely putting things in the best possible light.

I always take a spare battery if I'm going on a ride that might test the limits of one battery.


TT

 

[dodgeman]

I’d say my Trek Verve 3 could go close to 90 miles on eco. That’s a lot of hard pedaling though.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I’d say my Trek Verve 3 could go close to 90 miles on eco. That’s a lot of hard pedaling though.

yep and no stop and go.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Most cadence sensor ebikes probably cannot go 6 mph, They probably have a minimum speed of at least 10 mph. So it's a moot point. If you get 90 miles on the Via, you had the motor turned down t PAS 0, and you were pumping the pedals.

I have my BBS02B PAS 1 tuned down to about 6mph in 1st gear... But I use it to navigate/climb tight slow conditions, not for high mileage.
I'd be bored to s*it!

 

[jobtraklite]

Thanks all for your insights. Since there are almost no reviews for this bike, I think I will move on to two more I've been looking at.

Ride1up Turris $1095
Jaison EB5 Roamer ST $819

Yes, I know I was planning on moving up the food chain with this purchase. But the Jaison punched all the boxes and had very good reviews. So tell me what I'm doing wrong it I went with it.

 

[harryS]

I went back and read the specs more closely. I missed that it's a torque sensor bike.In that case, they could set PAS 1 low enough that 90 miles could be possible with disciplined riding under ideal conditions. I withdraw my pitchfork and bucket of tar.

I own a pair of torque sensor 250W mid motor kits, and have the ability to tune their power settings. Ridden at 10 mph, they can get good mileage, but the rider has to supply a lot of the power.

If you were touring though, I'd buy a second battery to make sure you get to the next rest stop.

 

[harryS]

You mentioned moving up the food chain. This Ride1up is way up the chain with the current overstock sale of $1299.

Prodigy XC - Ride1Up | Mid-Drive Electric Bike

The ultimate riding experience. With it's ultra-refined Brose control system, the Prodigy will take your riding to the next level with 15mph

ride1up.com

It's not advertised to do 90 miles. They say a more realistic 50 miles. A spare battery will be a lot more bulkier than on the other bike, but I think of tourers being able to take that in stride.

 

[fooferdoggie]

You mentioned moving up the food chain. This Ride1up is way up the chain with the current overstock sale of $1299.

Prodigy XC - Ride1Up | Mid-Drive Electric Bike

The ultimate riding experience. With it's ultra-refined Brose control system, the Prodigy will take your riding to the next level with 15mph

ride1up.com

It's not advertised to do 90 miles. They say a more realistic 50 miles. A spare battery will be a lot more bulkier than on the other bike, but I think of tourers being able to take that in stride.

bulky yes but it would still weigh less and actually have a hell of a lot more torque. plus a much better ride much better opponents and will fill like a bike.

 

[jobtraklite]

Yep, I am starting to look at the prodigy. I did email Young Electric and asked about the 90 mile range. They responded almost immediately saying

The E-Vie e-bike will consume less battery capacity during rides and allow a longer riding distance. Specifically, the 350W motor requires only 17A output current, whereas a 750W motor requires 25A output current. Consequently, even with the 350W motor and 36V battery, the e-bike can achieve a longer riding range. Our tests, conducted under conditions of flat road and rider weights within 100kgs, have confirmed a riding range of up to 90 miles.

Does this make sense? It's above my pay grade.

They also responded

Regarding the speed for each PAS level, I regret to inform you that we do not have the specific files and information details available at the moment.

Responding immediately to a sales question doesn't imply the same concern with an after sales question. But if I had gotten the bum's rush, you could be pretty sure their after sales support is poor.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Does this make sense? It's above my pay grade.

If we literally take what they said:
Vie has a 10.4 Ah battery. They said "17 A output". Meaning this battery is totally eaten in 10.4 / 17 = 0.61 hours or 36 minutes. If you are travelling at 20 mph (it is a Class 1 e-bike) then the range is 20 * 0.61 = 12.2 mi Of course, at the full assistance! (Of course you would not ride at the full assistance).

A 374 Wh battery provided with Young Electric Vie is ridiculously small by today's standards. (Note, I do not talk advanced low-power lightweight e-bikes here). The design is obsolete (the battery on the rear rack). It is a very cheap Chinese e-bike. 90 miles? Yes. On the pedal power only

Necessary to mention far more expensive e-bikes with 700-750 Wh battery are not always capable of providing assistance for 90 miles, and such a distance can be made by a rider who contributes to the ride a lot by solid pedalling. As @scrambler said, it is like 960 Wh battery capacity needed for 90 miles for most of us.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I often think we ask the wrong questions about e-bike range. I mean, who buys a car and asks how far you can go on a tank of gas?

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I often think we ask the wrong questions about e-bike range. I mean, who buys a car and asks how far you can go on a tank of gas?

It's a lot easier and quicker to top off a gas tank than to top off a battery.

TT

 

[indianajo]

That is an idiotic answer post 16. One rides a hub motor at full power only up steep hills, into a high wind, or at high speed. No way the motor was consuming more than an amp on a 90 miles ride. The rider was probably huffing pretty consistently to help the motor on that ride..
I have an 840 wh battery and carry ~60 lb groceries on my uphill leg. I only use the motor uphill, and at about 23 miles a steep grade pulls the battery below minimum and shuts the controller down. It will carry me on flatter grades another 4 miles.