2019–2020 R&M Homage : Riders' Impressions

[Deleted member 18083]

David, funnily enough, the pic you included has an incorrect symbol!

Good grief! I've just gone out to the shed to check. It's correct on the Homage's Kiox even if not on Bosch's website. (And I'm not going to tell the medical profession to change from bpm to Hz – just keep me going and I'll happy.)

 

[scrambler]

Yes.

If only the Rohloff had fifteen gears! Then we could have one gear lower and one higher than what 90% of us would need on 90% of our rides. With 'only' fourteen gears, bicycle manufacturers unerringly opt for a super-low granny gear rather than one more overdrive gear for high speed.

I am not sure we need more gears for an e-bike, but more range sure

 

[Deleted member 18083]

I am not sure we need more gears for an e-bike, but more range sure

Both 'more gears' and 'wider gear range' must remain whimsical thinking. Rohloff got the design right over two decades ago and, unlike derailleur cassettes where an extra cog has been added for each passing decade (over a much longer period), there is no possibility of evolutionary change with the Rohloff.

We are left forever pondering where the extremes of the Rohloff's huge gear range should be, and that depends on the relative sizes of front and rear 'sprockets'.

I wonder whether the number of gears that are changed in the 'multishift function' is likewise set. At present the arrangement is 1+3… +3,+3 and, I think, most of us would prefer to decide the number for ourselves (as with Shimano's electronic IGHs). Maybe, it isn't possible to alter the spacing in multishift.

 

[scrambler]

I know there is no hope for any changes on the mechanical side, that was just wishful thinking

What we need is more manufacturers realizing the importance of IGH for e-bikes and jumping in with solution as strong as the Rohloff. It always puzzles me that none of the other IGH manufacturers seems to see the opportunity.
IGH have always had a low adoption rate with traditional bicycles due to weight and efficiency, and these issues are non existent on an E-bike, yet these manufacturers are not moving, go figure...

We could also hope for Pinion to make a move on a rear hub IGH.

I wonder whether the number of gears that are changed in the 'multishift function' is likewise set. At present the arrangement is 1+3… +3,+3 and, I think, most of us would prefer to decide the number for ourselves (as with Shimano Alfine Di 11). Maybe, it isn't possible.

I know from discussions with someone close to Rohloff that the multishift is programmable and could be set to any value.
The problem is that they seem to have an exclusivity with Bosch (who does the integration) and therefore we are at the mercy of what Bosch decides to implement.
It would be nice if other motor manufacturers could jump in (or be allowed in), as that would create some competition.

 

[Carl M.]

David, fantastic details in your feedback on your Homage. I have not ridden one, but you've certainly got me second guessing my decision to go with the Charge Mixte GH Nuvinci which is sitting with Customs in Melbourne at the moment. The Rohloff seems like it's an awesome option that for the most part is working well for you.
Is the Bosch CX working well with the hilly terrain you tour ?.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Is the Bosch CX working well with the hilly terrain you tour ?

YES.
Carl, my Bosch CX experience is still limited – around 6,000 km over the last seven months if I include the Trek Powerfly 5 eMTB. I've also ridden another centre-motor/IGH ebike (an unfortunate Impulse purchase) for around 4,000 km. (There was an overlap period of around one year before riding a regular road bike faded away to negligible.)

The CX motor will not take one up hills; it will assist. You have to earn the assistance by putting in a good deal of effort! With the CX's help, most ebikers will get up most inclines without having to use the Rohloff's lowest gears; however, as Court has mentioned many times, this motor will willingly help the rider who spins the pedals around at higher speeds which is what is likely to happen when using the Rohloff's lowest gears.

The Kiox has various 'pages' that display power assist data; for example, 150 W from motor (decent effort from me), 200 W (big effort), 250 W (I'd better watch my heart rate). It is definitely not a case of the CX will give me 250 W and I can add what I want to that.

The Kiox's 'start page' has a graphical representation: a 'breaking wave' bar graph showing motor output versus human output (a little too artsy for my liking). This graph and the labels on all of the display pages are colour coded (green=ECO, blue=Tour, purple=eMTB, red=Turbo), making it immediately obvious which power assist level has been chosen.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Control Buttons …
There are four sets of buttons on the handlebar. All work satisfactorily albeit with some quirks.

• Kiox Display : middle
  • on/off for motor (does the job!).
  • on/off for lights (deactivated because the lights are always on).
• High/Low Beam : right hand
  • single button to toggle between low and high beam – does not display which option has been chosen (I leave it alone!).
• Kiox Control – power & data whilst riding : left hand
  • up/down (plus/minus) buttons to set power assist level.
  • left/right (arrow) buttons to scroll through Kiox data display pages.
• Kiox Control – settings whilst stationary : left hand
  • select button to enter settings menu or confirm option.
  • up/down (plus/minus) and left/right (arrow) buttons to scroll through options.
• Rohloff : right hand
  • plus/minus buttons to shift one or more gears.

The Kiox control has a dual persona dependent on whether you are riding or fiddling with the settings (works fine!). It is easy to operate, both in terms of understanding its functions and knowing that it will respond every time a button is pressed. (I'll have to figure out the walk function later!)

Becoming comfortable with the Rohloff switch unit is a task that requires perseverance. It is not just understanding multishift but also becoming adept at pressing the buttons in just the right way and for just the right amount of time. I'm almost there (and smiling because this is so very much better than the mechanical grip shift of times past).

 

[Deleted member 18083]

A Handsome Machine …
The Homage is an imposing ebike with a striking design that is entirely functional but still good-looking. R&M's approach appears to have been along the lines of 'this is how the Homage will perform, therefore, this is how it will look.' No pretence.

There are no lookalike rivals from other brands. It is a one-of-a-kind stunner and I liked the Homage from the start.

I had hoped (not forlornly) that the 2019 would come with Bosch's Dual Battery option. Clearly, an updated model needed to have the main battery integrated in the down tube but this simply resulted in the second battery being even more prominent than before. It's a blot on the Homage's clean lines but, because it is so important, it must be accepted. Could the second battery have been sited on the carrier?

Another niggle is the bike's colour: black or, as R&M's promotion unit prefers to call it, 'Deep Sea Blue'. I doubt that I'll ever hear someone exclaim, 'Dave, your ebike is really blue!' It's black with just a very few drops of blue added. In low light – between sunset and darkness, for example – I have noticed (imagined?) that the black has a touch of blue to it. Returning from today's ride with the Homage on the car's hitch rack, I happened to glance in the rearview mirror and thought 'Maybe, it's bluer than I thought!"; but this was deep below the city in one of Brisbane's many tunnels (you can get lost down there).

If only Riese & Müller had chosen a less subtle hue – mid-Pacific blue rather than the Mariana Trench blue?

 

[Dionigi]

I know there is no hope for any changes on the mechanical side, that was just wishful thinking

What we need is more manufacturers realizing the importance of IGH for e-bikes and jumping in with solution as strong as the Rohloff. It always puzzles me that none of the other IGH manufacturers seems to see the opportunity.
IGH have always had a low adoption rate with traditional bicycles due to weight and efficiency, and these issues are non existent on an E-bike, yet these manufacturers are not moving, go figure...

We could also hope for Pinion to make a move on a rear hub IGH.



I know from discussions with someone close to Rohloff that the multishift is programmable and could be set to any value.
The problem is that they seem to have an exclusivity with Bosch (who does the integration) and therefore we are at the mercy of what Bosch decides to implement.
It would be nice if other motor manufacturers could jump in (or be allowed in), as that would create some competition.

I feel the in the future we will see the integration of transmission with motor similar to motorcycles. Continental already has the NuVinci CVT integrated with their motor. Also I would hope there will be future CVT development with improvements like wider range, lighter and more efficiency.

 

[wannesd]

@David Berry :
Regarding dropper posts, is there any way we could make a remote one work?
In other words, is the seattube open at the bottom, allowing for a cable to be run through the frame into the seattube?

Could you post some detailed pictures of this area, and of the cable management in the bottom bracket / swing arm area?

Thanks,
Wannes

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Regarding dropper posts, is there any way we could make a remote one work?
Is the seat tube open at the bottom, allowing for a cable to be run through the frame into the seat tube?

Wannes …
Running an internal dropper cable will not be straightforward, especially in transitioning from the bottom of the seat tube A to the bottom of the down tube C. The rear shock B is in the way!

X is in the same place on the bike in both photos – to help indicate photos' relative positions; otherwise irrelevant.

Four suggestions for fitting a dropper post…

1 : Internal cable running inside the seat post A. (Yes, the seat tube is open at the bottom but has a stopper to prevent the seat post bashing onto the rear shock.) The cable will have to exit the seat tube immediately above the X-Fusion rear shock B; there's little room here so a tight bend will be necessary.

2 : External cable running down the rear of the seat tube.

Either way, the cable can then enter the down tube together with the rear brake line and the Rohloff wiring C and follow them past the PowerTube battery. There is an unused cable entry/exit hole on the down tube (top left, next to the battery keyhole).

Is routing the cable through/outside the seat post, around the rear shock, and into and out of the down tube and up to the handlebar worth the trouble?

3 : Wireless remote control. Think Magura Vyron; think many dollars.

4 : Integrated lever. I have used the same KS Dropzone (operated by a lever under the saddle nose) on three ebikes and a road bike. It is simple and effective and does away with cabling problems. Rcommended.

I chose the minimum 'drop' of 75 mm (65 mm on the budget E10 version) because anything more than that would have shot me skywards beyond my correct pedalling position. If one has plenty of room between seat collar and saddle, then 100 mm would be better. The correct setup will have feet flat on the ground when stopped and also allow easy slipping back onto the saddle.
… David

 

[wannesd]

David,

thank you very much for the detailed pictures.

I think a reverb seatpost might work (internal cabling).
The cable (or better yet, hydraulic line) would not have to make a sharp angled turn, but would need to be gently routed around the rear shock.
I guess I'll just have to try and find out when I get the bike.

Main problem is the height difference between me and my wife, the post will have to be at the minimum height for her.
Meaning that at full extension, it will need to be at my perfect setting, or lower.
As this is a eBike, I am not too worried with reachin perfect leg extension. However, I would not like to be more than a couple of cm off.

Technically, I think the dropper post might fit, but the dimensions of the combination will determine if it is worthwhile.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Main problem is the height difference between me and my wife.

The correct dropper post would presumably be one with the same 'drop' as the difference between your preferred saddle heights (150–175 mm?).

On my Homage the distance from the centre of the bottom bracket spindle (to which the pedal cranks attach) to the top of the saddle in the dropped position is 600 mm. Will this be too high for your wife? I suspect that it might. If so, the dropper post option is probably not the way to go.

Before you spend upward of 200 euros on a dropper post, try the supplied seat post to compare your preferred saddle heights.

Bear in mind that Homage's seat post is long but can be cut down to size (proper seat post/steerer sawing guide required). If you so – I'm guesstimating these measurements! – the seat could drop to around 580 mm (with lock in place) or to 550–560 mm (with lock repositioned).

Cutting the seat post might make it unusable for you!

There is always Plan B: his and hers saddles with separate posts. This is based on the probability that any dropper post would be too high for your wife.
… David

 

[wannesd]

David, thank you for your insights.
I guess there's only one way to know for sure: when we take delivery, measure everything.
I'll adjust the bike for her, adjust it for me, and look at the possibilities in using a dropper post, or another solution.
Dropper would be preferred, but I won't put form over function.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

I've been riding the Homage for almost six weeks and the odometer is now decidedly above 2000 km so it is perhaps time to hazard a preliminary assessment.

• Where does it sit in my 5-star rating?
  3 stars – Average
• If the worst happened, would I replace it with the same?
  YES
• Am I prepared to recommend it?
  NO

 

[Deleted member 18083]

More about my 2000 km assessment of the 2019 Homage GX Rohloff…

***** Excellent

• overall concept & design
• Control Technology full suspension
• Bosch Performance Line CX motor
• Gates Carbon Drive
• dual battery
• lock
• lighting
• handlebar & grips

**** Good

• Kiox control
• Rohloff E-14
• brakes
• wheels
• finish
• saddle
• pannier rack

*** Average

• pedals

** Flawed

• Kiox display
• charging port cover

* Junk

• Bosch's credibility
• Riese & Müller's credibility

 

[Dionigi]

David certainly the Junk needs further explanation. Is the negativity centered around the Kiox controller?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Wannes …
Running an internal dropper cable will not be straightforward, especially in transitioning from the bottom of the seat tube A to the bottom of the down tube C. The rear shock B is in the way!

X is in the same place on the bike in both photos – to help indicate photos' relative positions; otherwise irrelevant.
View attachment 30095

Four suggestions for fitting a dropper post…

1 : Internal cable running inside the seat post A. (Yes, the seat tube is open at the bottom but has a stopper to prevent the seat post bashing onto the rear shock.) The cable will have to exit the seat tube immediately above the X-Fusion rear shock B; there's little room here so a tight bend will be necessary.

2 : External cable running down the rear of the seat tube.

Either way, the cable can then enter the down tube together with the rear brake line and the Rohloff wiring C and follow them past the PowerTube battery. There is an unused cable entry/exit hole on the down tube (top left, next to the battery keyhole).

Is routing the cable through/outside the seat post, around the rear shock, and into and out of the down tube and up to the handlebar worth the trouble?

3 : Wireless remote control. Think Magura Vyron; think many dollars.

4 : Integrated lever. I have used the same KS Dropzone (operated by a lever under the saddle nose) on three ebikes and a road bike. It is simple and effective and does away with cabling problems. Rcommended.

I chose the minimum 'drop' of 75 mm (65 mm on the budget E10 version) because anything more than that would have shot me skywards beyond my correct pedalling position. If one has plenty of room between seat collar and saddle, then 100 mm would be better. The correct setup will have feet flat on the ground when stopped and also allow easy slipping back onto the saddle.
… David

What impresses me most is the meticulousness with which you respond to messages here. There is always a greeting/addressee with a slightly different color. Major points are italic in the body, there is a closing.
Photos are clear and convey something meaningful. You clearly belong a class of people who are not constantly checking their phones and have their brains hijacked. Someone who can focus and pay attention.
Very rare to see on the forums..

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Diongi, Ravi and Oblix …
Credibility is about being trustworthy and believable.

The Kiox is a thoroughly underwhelming bike computer. My experience is clear: it has zero connectivity. There is no way that I am able to connect a heart rate monitor (a prominent claim); no way that my recorded ride data can be downloaded (surely that is essential!); no way that I can tailor the pages to my needs. These are features that are common to all modern bike computers… and my Kiox doesn't make any of them available to me!

Both Bosch and Riese & Müller have advertised the Kiox in strongly positive terms. I have placed Bosch's credibility at 'junk' level because they have touted the Kiox in a way that is incompatible with my experience.

The Kiox must have a complementary app to be usable.
… David

 

[Alaskan]

David,
Thanks for the explanation. I’m probably going to order a Riese&Müller Supercharger rohloff hs in the coming days. I was planning on getting it with the Kiox, knowing it is still not complete, but hoping that in the course of the year the connectivity will be made available. I’d hate to put an 80’s style intuvia on that bike.

I’ll research this a bit further.

Thanks!

David I hope you don't mid a brief hijack on your thread. @Oblix , I have a Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff HS on order. It will be equipped with an Intuvia which will be replaced with a Nyon when it arrives. If you want to know why, please check out this post I just put up on the topic of Bosch display choices. https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/5-bosch-display-choices-good-bad-and-ugly.27035/

Here is a thread I started a while back with a step by step process for swapping out the Intuvia in favor of a Nyon. https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ofit-on-riese-muller-homage-in-the-usa.25494/