Canada to restrict class 3 ebikes to 20mph

[gromike]

I'm just learning about the use of regen braking. Watching the watts go the other way is rewarding, though what's promoted is the braking.
After my ride today I'm thinking you can drive up the reverse current up by riding style. Things like pedaling into a stop and down a hill while in regen. That, hopefully, would convert some food into juice. I'm finding out of the need for proportional control of the regeneration.
Really, for me, it's something fun to play with.

 

[PCeBiker]

I'm just learning about the use of regen braking. Watching the watts go the other way is rewarding,

Your lucky.
You get to see your Watts go backwards.
I only get to see my Voltage go backwards.
I have no idea if any amps are following?

How many Watts do you see?

Do you think that your computer/display is lying to you?

(my computer is lying to me...
I'm quite sad about it. )

 

[PCeBiker]

With non-helical geared hub motors yes you can, though you need to disable the freewheeling clutch inside the motor. Grin has done this in a motor. Supposedly, some bits of weld can lock up the clutch.

That's what I thought?!!
Helical gears push or pull on the axle.
Non-Helical do not.

My 1983 550 Nighthawk had a Hypoid geared drive shaft.
When I hammered the throttle, the drive shaft would shorten, lifting the back end of the bike.
Hypoid gears need special protection from the scrubbing of the splines.
Sulphur additives to the oil.
Toxic, stinky stuff 80W90 is.


Straight cut gears need no such protection.
They spin freely.
The GRIN regeneration motor has its armature spinning 5 times faster than the wheel.
With straight cut gears.

 

[PCeBiker]

My cars gearbox had no hypoid gears.
I ran it on ATF Type-F for more than a decade.
It used to grind gears in the winter.

 

[PCeBiker]

,..though you need to disable the freewheeling clutch inside the motor. Supposedly, some bits of weld can lock up the clutch.

We used to do this in our Trackers,..
(Pontiac Sunrunner in my case )

We would open up the front differential and weld inside to lock the right and left axles together.
It was a 4 Wheel Drive vehicle but only had two wheels really driving.
(didn't have limited slip differentials)

So we welded the front wheels together.
Turning was a challenge but you just kept the wheels spinning.

It had 2H 4H 2L and 4L
It was rear wheel drive, so 2H left the front axle, and drive shaft idle.
We only "turned on" the FWD for off-roading


Parking was no problem of course.
You just parked it anywhere.

 

[MikeyG]

Hello all,

I am a Canadian that has two Stromer ST3’s in the family. I have spoken with my dealer and read all I can about this. I have firmware 4.3.9.5 current ou on both bikes. I changed my address to a family member that lives in the USA then I pulled both batteries from the bikes. According to my Canadian dealer that spoke with a Stromer USA rep that “if you had a USA second address like a country house” this would work. He claims that if your bike was registered to a USA address at the time of the firmware push, you would not have it applied.

I now wait for news from my dealer that this worked for others, then I’ll put my Batteries back. I’ll let you all know more as I hear back, I’ll probably buy some foil to wrap my OMNI controller before though!

What happens if you move to USA and change your address after the update? Stromer must have the ability to retune their motor back to 45 kph??

 

[JGL351]

It is interesting to read through these posts which start out asking “what are the rules in Canada ?” to how to get around the rules?
Statistically compitance for and activity or skill falls on a spectrum. For bike riding skills ( personal observations) the average is very low.
If regulators give the average bike rider ( I am not using the term “cyclist” on purpose) access to speeds over 30 kmph on residential streets, bike lanes etc. there will be problems. Why do car dealerships sell car that can do 300 kmph when the max posted speed limit in Canada is 120 kmph. According to road accident reports 100 kmph is too high for average drivers and they have supposedly been trained? Why give the average low skilled bike rider access to speed they can’t handle?

 

[PedalUma]

Why give the average low skilled bike rider access to speed they can’t handle?

Marketing. I saw this on the 405 freeway by LAX, Los Angeles all the time. Someone would have a 250-300 mph car with a manual transmission in bumper to bumper 5 mph traffic. The answer is that people want it and others will sell it to them. Fools go one way, their money another. Is there any upside to the general population for a supercar on the freeway, nope. Is there any advantage to the driver getting to the commute destination more efficiently with greater safety, nope. The mechanics like it, because the clutch is not built to go that slowly.

 

[Ken M]

I don't know about Canada or even all the US States but here in MN, we had no voice. One day there was a bill, and the next we were hobbled by nanny rules limiting and creating silly classes.

The CPSC has clarified that the 3-class "ebikes" are not the same as a federal compliant "LSEB" per HR727. What that means is that no one should buy a 3-class ebike and demand an LSEB per the federal definition that can be ridden as a bike anywhere where bikes are permitted.

 

[MikeyG]

It is interesting to read through these posts which start out asking “what are the rules in Canada ?” to how to get around the rules?
Statistically compitance for and activity or skill falls on a spectrum. For bike riding skills ( personal observations) the average is very low.
If regulators give the average bike rider ( I am not using the term “cyclist” on purpose) access to speeds over 30 kmph on residential streets, bike lanes etc. there will be problems. Why do car dealerships sell car that can do 300 kmph when the max posted speed limit in Canada is 120 kmph. According to road accident reports 100 kmph is too high for average drivers and they have supposedly been trained? Why give the average low skilled bike rider access to speed they can’t handle?

So how do you arrive at a “safe” speed of <30 kph? Can you share a scientific study that determined >30 kph on a bike is unsafe?

 

[JGL351]

So how do you arrive at a “safe” speed of <30 kph? Can you share a scientific study that determined >30 kph on a bike is unsafe?

There is no defined “ safe” speed , it depends on what you hit when you fall. When speed differences exceed 20 kmph unprotected body parts will suffer significant damage, over 30 kmph the trama maybe live threatening. Where would you draw the legislative line to guide socially responsible people?

 

[TPEHAK]

That sucks. That means more danger for bicyclists riding in the bicycle lanes or on the road shoulders along the roads where the speed limit is more than 20mph. It is safer to ride in the middle of the road with tfaffic at 35-40 mph than 20 mph in the bicycle lane or on the side of the road. There are many bicyclists were killed or injured by cars riding this way.

Those laws are clearly managed by people who does not ride bicycles regularly or who does not commute on bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So how do you arrive at a “safe” speed of <30 kph? Can you share a scientific study that determined >30 kph on a bike is unsafe?

There was a scientific study once presented in these Forums that stated a bike crash at the speed > 30 km/h resulted in far more dangerous injuries (especially to the head) than slower rides. I'm not really motivated to do the research for you though.

It is not easy for an average cyclist to get on speed >25 km/h. Experienced riders say riding faster than that requires skill, practice, and mastering the riding technique. Getting at high speed with a heavy e-bike is too easy. Necessary to mention my first and the most severe e-bike crash occurred only on my twelfth ride, at the speed above 30 km/h. I was carried away with the easiness of riding the e-bike fast but I was missing experience and technique.

 

[m@Robertson]

If regulators give the average bike rider ( I am not using the term “cyclist” on purpose) access to speeds over 30 kmph on residential streets, bike lanes etc. there will be problems.

This statement is a personal opinion, which you are welcome to, but it has no basis in fact.

Here in California for many years we have had 3-class bicycle definitions, which has spread to 39 states last I heard. The lowest speed limit of the three classes is 20 mph, which works out to a little over 32 km/h. So even the slow ebikes in the USA are already going faster than your dire prediction without issue. If we go up to the Class 3 speed, which is quite common, that is 28 mph / just over 40 km/h.

I don't believe Canadians are less competent to manage riding on two wheels than their USA neighbors so I'm going to say the experience south of their border will be a valid comparison.

As always, it is worth noting in threads like these: The sky is not falling

 

[PedalUma]

As mentioned in another thread. I just rode 20K on a non-assisted bike that is faster than most electric bikes here in the other CA. Really good analog bikes can be very fast.
Todd Reichert broke his own record again on September 17, 2016, to set a speed of 144.17 km/h (89.58 mph) at the 2016 WHPSC.

 

[Neverlost]

Gotta slow your bikes down! The RCMP have to be able to catch you, despite a donut in one hand and a coffee in the other. Just joshing with you Canadians.

The only solution is probably a different brand of ebike.

Tom Horton supports this new regulation

 

[jabberwocky]

Something that hasn't been studied for bikes specifically but certainly has for cars is that kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity (the formula is K=1/2(mass*v^2). Going from 20mph to 30mph with the same mass more than doubles kinetic energy (for 100kg of moving mass, 20mph is ~4000j, 30mph is ~9000j).

This is why the damage done in car collisions with pedestrians increases massively with speed (see: https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-severe-injury-death/, for example). From that study:

Results show that the average risk of severe injury for a pedestrian struck by a vehicle reaches 10% at an impact speed of 16 mph, 25% at 23 mph, 50% at 31 mph, 75% at 39 mph, and 90% at 46 mph. The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75% at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph.

Chance of a car killing a pedestrian increases 150% going from 23mph to 32mph.

Bikes obviously weigh a lot less than cars, but the same physics applies. Relatively small increases in speed increases energy more than you think. Energy is directly related to damage inflicted if you do run into something or someone.

 

[MikeyG]

There is no defined “ safe” speed , it depends on what you hit when you fall. When speed differences exceed 20 kmph unprotected body parts will suffer significant damage, over 30 kmph the trama maybe live threatening. Where would you draw the legislative line to guide socially responsible people?

The defined “safe” speed in Canada is obviously 32 kph. If you’re ”socially responsible “, whatever that means, you shouldn’t need artificially imposed regulations. If the pols were really interested in imposing a speed limit why not fix the ebike so it brakes going downhill and holds the ebike speed below the limit?

 

[GizmoEV]

Bikes obviously weigh a lot less than cars, but the same physics applies. Relatively small increases in speed increases energy more than you think. Energy is directly related to damage inflicted if you do run into something or someone.

The difference, however, is that the bike is moving WITH traffic not toward it. The relative motion is reduced between the car and bike the faster the bike moves, giving the driver of a car more time to react to a bike in the lane. Also, the faster the bike is going, the less frustrating it can be for the driver of a car to slow down less until it is safe to pass the bike.

 

[PedalUma]

The difference, however, is that the bike is moving WITH traffic not toward it. The relative motion is reduced between the car and bike the faster the bike moves, giving the driver of a car more time to react to a bike in the lane. Also, the faster the bike is going, the less frustrating it can be for the driver of a car to slow down less until it is safe to pass the bike.

Good point. I feel safest clearing an intersection ahead of the cars. Riding at a leisurely pace is nice away from cars. In my area we are fortunate to have many good bike paths where I don't need to run with the bulls. And we are planning more dedicated and protected bike lanes. One pilot project build we did moved parked cars away from the curb putting them between auto traffic and the bike lane. It turned a liability such as getting doored and run over to an asset, a protected bike lane. Click 'View on Youtube.'