Canada to restrict class 3 ebikes to 20mph

[Neverlost]

Gotta slow your bikes down! The RCMP have to be able to catch you, despite a donut in one hand and a coffee in the other. Just joshing with you Canadians.

The only solution is probably a different brand of ebike.

Tom Horton supports this new regulation

 

[jabberwocky]

Something that hasn't been studied for bikes specifically but certainly has for cars is that kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity (the formula is K=1/2(mass*v^2). Going from 20mph to 30mph with the same mass more than doubles kinetic energy (for 100kg of moving mass, 20mph is ~4000j, 30mph is ~9000j).

This is why the damage done in car collisions with pedestrians increases massively with speed (see: https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-severe-injury-death/, for example). From that study:

Results show that the average risk of severe injury for a pedestrian struck by a vehicle reaches 10% at an impact speed of 16 mph, 25% at 23 mph, 50% at 31 mph, 75% at 39 mph, and 90% at 46 mph. The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75% at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph.

Chance of a car killing a pedestrian increases 150% going from 23mph to 32mph.

Bikes obviously weigh a lot less than cars, but the same physics applies. Relatively small increases in speed increases energy more than you think. Energy is directly related to damage inflicted if you do run into something or someone.

 

[MikeyG]

There is no defined “ safe” speed , it depends on what you hit when you fall. When speed differences exceed 20 kmph unprotected body parts will suffer significant damage, over 30 kmph the trama maybe live threatening. Where would you draw the legislative line to guide socially responsible people?

The defined “safe” speed in Canada is obviously 32 kph. If you’re ”socially responsible “, whatever that means, you shouldn’t need artificially imposed regulations. If the pols were really interested in imposing a speed limit why not fix the ebike so it brakes going downhill and holds the ebike speed below the limit?

 

[GizmoEV]

Bikes obviously weigh a lot less than cars, but the same physics applies. Relatively small increases in speed increases energy more than you think. Energy is directly related to damage inflicted if you do run into something or someone.

The difference, however, is that the bike is moving WITH traffic not toward it. The relative motion is reduced between the car and bike the faster the bike moves, giving the driver of a car more time to react to a bike in the lane. Also, the faster the bike is going, the less frustrating it can be for the driver of a car to slow down less until it is safe to pass the bike.

 

[PedalUma]

The difference, however, is that the bike is moving WITH traffic not toward it. The relative motion is reduced between the car and bike the faster the bike moves, giving the driver of a car more time to react to a bike in the lane. Also, the faster the bike is going, the less frustrating it can be for the driver of a car to slow down less until it is safe to pass the bike.

Good point. I feel safest clearing an intersection ahead of the cars. Riding at a leisurely pace is nice away from cars. In my area we are fortunate to have many good bike paths where I don't need to run with the bulls. And we are planning more dedicated and protected bike lanes. One pilot project build we did moved parked cars away from the curb putting them between auto traffic and the bike lane. It turned a liability such as getting doored and run over to an asset, a protected bike lane. Click 'View on Youtube.'

 

[jabberwocky]

The difference, however, is that the bike is moving WITH traffic not toward it. The relative motion is reduced between the car and bike the faster the bike moves, giving the driver of a car more time to react to a bike in the lane. Also, the faster the bike is going, the less frustrating it can be for the driver of a car to slow down less until it is safe to pass the bike.

I think the various speed cutoffs/power definitions/etc for ebikes are not really about ebikes in traffic with cars, they are setting limits for ebikes sharing space with non-powered user groups (pedestrians, cyclists and similar).

Unlimited power 2 wheeled vehicles for purely road use already have a definition in the vehicle code.

 

[Ken M]

There was a scientific study once presented in these Forums that stated a bike crash at the speed > 30 km/h resulted in far more dangerous injuries (especially to the head) than slower rides. I'm not really motivated to do the research for you though.

It is not easy for an average cyclist to get on speed >25 km/h. Experienced riders say riding faster than that requires skill, practice, and mastering the riding technique. Getting at high speed with a heavy e-bike is too easy. Necessary to mention my first and the most severe e-bike crash occurred only on my twelfth ride, at the speed above 30 km/h. I was carried away with the easiness of riding the e-bike fast but I was missing experience and technique.

There was a huge Europe study done that indicated the vast majority of riders obtained speeds of 45kph / 28mph going down long inclines. Now what everyone does is claim that doesn't count because it's only downhill that the average rider can do that but that is just not even a rational response to the fact that this shows most riders feel "safe enough" on a bike to go that fast.

Everyone understands that higher speeds will cause more serious injuries but if we were so worried about saving everyone from harm we certainly wouldn't have car speeds as high as they are. The fact is that time is money when we are commuting to get to work, to pick up kids, etc. essentially anytime a bike is being used a transportation tool and not just for leisure or recreation. In that light we need to be rational about what assist levels ebikes should be allowed to provide before they are considered a motor vehicle.

Note: A human was able to average almost 33mph for 1 hour on a track so I'm sure most riders can hit 30mph for say 10 seconds so please spare me that the assist limit in EU of 15mph or the class 1 speed limit in most US states of 20mph is rational. They simply are not.

 

[Ken M]

There is no defined “ safe” speed , it depends on what you hit when you fall. When speed differences exceed 20 kmph unprotected body parts will suffer significant damage, over 30 kmph the trama maybe live threatening. Where would you draw the legislative line to guide socially responsible people?

Most bike riders ride at the speed they feel safe at given their experience, conditioning, and the conditions. We should not set the assist limits based on the lowest common denominator riders. The vast majority of riders go well over 20mph when going down hill and that is almost always ignored in the assist speed conversation. Just because an ebike may assist to 28mph doesn't mean the rider will always be riding at that speed.

 

[Ken M]

Something that hasn't been studied for bikes specifically but certainly has for cars is that kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity (the formula is K=1/2(mass*v^2). Going from 20mph to 30mph with the same mass more than doubles kinetic energy (for 100kg of moving mass, 20mph is ~4000j, 30mph is ~9000j).

This is why the damage done in car collisions with pedestrians increases massively with speed (see: https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-severe-injury-death/, for example). From that study:



Chance of a car killing a pedestrian increases 150% going from 23mph to 32mph.
nc
Bikes obviously weigh a lot less than cars, but the same physics applies. Relatively small increases in speed increases energy more than you think. Energy is directly related to damage inflicted if you do run into something or someone.

So I see you are still arguing that assist speeds for ebikes should probably be 20mph (or maybe 15mph like in Europe). We all know that higher speeds on interstate highways increased the risks of serious injuries or death but if we limit car speeds to 20mph most people would not buy or use them because they would be a far less effective transportation solution. We must look at the bigger picture and not simply say it's not as safe to go 25mph as it is 20mph as justification for Class 1 assist speed on an ebike.

 

[Ken M]

I think the various speed cutoffs/power definitions/etc for ebikes are not really about ebikes in traffic with cars, they are setting limits for ebikes sharing space with non-powered user groups (pedestrians, cyclists and similar).

Unlimited power 2 wheeled vehicles for purely road use already have a definition in the vehicle code.

Your argument here totally ignores have fast a non-assist bike can go down hill. Why not suggest that we have auto-brakes that prevent fast speeds down inclines if the user group argument is robust.

 

[mschwett]

There was a huge Europe study done that indicated the vast majority of riders obtained speeds of 45kph / 28mph going down long inclines. Now what everyone does is claim that doesn't count because it's only downhill that the average rider can do that but that is just not even a rational response to the fact that this shows most riders feel "safe enough" on a bike to go that fast.

Everyone understands that higher speeds will cause more serious injuries but if we were so worried about saving everyone from harm we certainly wouldn't have car speeds as high as they are. The fact is that time is money when we are commuting to get to work, to pick up kids, etc. essentially anytime a bike is being used a transportation tool and not just for leisure or recreation. In that light we need to be rational about what assist levels ebikes should be allowed to provide before they are considered a motor vehicle.

Note: A human was able to average almost 33mph for 1 hour on a track so I'm sure most riders can hit 30mph for say 10 seconds so please spare me that the assist limit in EU of 15mph or the class 1 speed limit in most US states of 20mph is rational. They simply are not.

ah yes, everyone's favorite totally irrelevant red herring. "in that other circumstance this thing happens so it's ok to do something like that thing in this circumstance." please. if you're so concerned about going downhill fast, please note that limiting the motor assist speed of an eBike doesn't limit the speed at which you can go downhill. so you're good. oh, wait, that isn't actually what you are concerned about, is it? you want to go fast UPHILL or in some other circumstance in which the vast majority of non-professional cyclists are going more like 15mph, not 28mph. that's the rub. in just about every city in the world you're sharing infrastructure designed for and used by over decades with small, lightweight, human powered vehicles that typically go around 15mph.

it matters not one bit how fast a track cyclist can go. track cyclists don't ride at 33mph through city streets. if you want to go MUCH faster than everyone else, do it with your own legs, or get in the lane with the other motor vehicles.

also - if you're going to try and use claims about momentary human power to support what you think a motor should be able to do for extended periods of time (already ridiculous!) you may as well bother to get them right. the average human on an average bike absolutely cannot reach 30mph on level ground. to do so on an upright bicycle with big tires requires close to 1000w, far out of reach of "most" riders. it takes about 500w to do so in the drops on a fast road bike, which is starting to get more reasonable, but again "most" people can't even ride a bike like that hard in the drops. in my last 10,000 miles of cycling i have encountered a typical person riding 28mph on level ground precisely zero times. even 20mph is quite unusual, frankly. my spirited rides average 16 or 17 mph and i pass the vast majority (95% or more) of riders on the flats and downhills. i get passed by smaller, lighter riders going uphill.

if you want to justify 28mph in the bike lane or shared path, do it with actual science/studies on the subject, not random irrelevant facts.

 

[mschwett]

Your argument here totally ignores have fast a non-assist bike can go down hill. Why not suggest that we have auto-brakes that prevent fast speeds down inclines if the user group argument is robust.

no, it doesn't. nobody has ever suggested the class or other type definitions of bicycles should use auto-brakes. yet another specious and dishonest argument, this time a straw man.

nobody is preventing you from riding fast downhill. in that circumstance, many bicycles will be going fairly fast, a fact acknowledged by the common-sense design practice of only having dedicated bike lanes UPHILL in many urban environments. downhill in an urban environment you really don't need them as much because bikes are as fast as cars, and the most common kinds of accidents (right hooks, passing, rear ending) simply won't happen.

 

[Ken M]

t matters not one bit how fast a track cyclist can go. track cyclists don't ride at 33mph through city streets.

It does matter because most bike riders know when to slow down when encountering pedestrians. We don't have the same speed limit going thru a city as we do on the interstate but hey nice try if you are trying to protect the auto industry by keeping ebikes limited to just recreation speeds.

If a professional cyclist was able to sustain almost 33mph on a track for an hour then most decently fit riders can put out say 350-400W for say 10 seconds and achieve 30mph. Tossing in the fat tire bike was nebulous as assuming everyone is 200lbs overweight.

 

[Ken M]

no, it doesn't. nobody has ever suggested the class or other type definitions of bicycles should use auto-brakes. yet another specious and dishonest argument, this time a straw man.

nobody is preventing you from riding fast downhill. in that circumstance, many bicycles will be going fairly fast, a fact acknowledged by the common-sense design practice of only having dedicated bike lanes UPHILL in many urban environments. downhill in an urban environment you really don't need them as much because bikes are as fast as cars, and the most common kinds of accidents (right hooks, passing, rear ending) simply won't happen.

It's not a straw man argument when some in this forum are arguing that it's just not safe for any ebike to assist past 20mph. Most of those saying that work in the auto industry - where do you think the European and 3-class legislation in the US came from. Many will say the Class definitions came from People for Bikes advocacy group but they were paid lobby money by the auto industry to push the 3-class legislation in a classic regulatory capture effort).

 

[mschwett]

It does matter because most bike riders know when to slow down when encountering pedestrians. We don't have the same speed limit going thru a city as we do on the interstate but hey nice try if you are trying to protect the auto industry by keeping ebikes limited to just recreation speeds.

If a professional cyclist was able to sustain almost 33mph on a track for an hour then most decently fit riders can put out say 350-400W for say 10 seconds and achieve 30mph. Tossing in the fat tire bike was nebulous as assuming everyone is 200lbs overweight.

you think 350w will achieve 30mph? lol. you simply have no clue, i'm sorry. try 23mph with road tires. i am not/was not referring to a fat tire bike, i was referring to the typical tires you find on hybrid city bikes, which are closer to MTB size than road bike size.

 

[mschwett]

It's not a straw man argument when some in this forum are arguing that it's just not safe for any ebike to assist past 20mph. Most of those saying that work in the auto industry - where do you think the European and 3-class legislation in the US came from. Many will say the Class definitions came from People for Bikes advocacy group but they were paid lobby money by the auto industry to push the 3-class legislation in a classic regulatory capture effort).

you really need to drop this tired tirade. NOBODY CARES about your conspiracy theories, whether they are rooted in fact or not.

not a single person i know who cares about bike issues works for the auto industry - again, more bullshit from you - and the vast majority support limits on the speed of e-bikes in order to allow those e-bbikes in bikes lanes and paths. these are people who have been riding bikes, advocating for bike infrastructure, and in many cases designing and building bike facilities and infrastructure for decades.

 

[Ken M]

ah yes, everyone's favorite totally irrelevant red herring. "in that other circumstance this thing happens so it's ok to do something like that thing in this circumstance." please. if you're so concerned about going downhill fast, please note that limiting the motor assist speed of an eBike doesn't limit the speed at which you can go downhill. so you're good. oh, wait, that isn't actually what you are concerned about, is it? you want to go fast UPHILL or in some other circumstance in which the vast majority of non-professional cyclists are going more like 15mph, not 28mph. that's the rub. in just about every city in the world you're sharing infrastructure designed for and used by over decades with small, lightweight, human powered vehicles that typically go around 15mph.

it matters not one bit how fast a track cyclist can go. track cyclists don't ride at 33mph through city streets. if you want to go MUCH faster than everyone else, do it with your own legs, or get in the lane with the other motor vehicles.

also - if you're going to try and use claims about momentary human power to support what you think a motor should be able to do for extended periods of time (already ridiculous!) you may as well bother to get them right. the average human on an average bike absolutely cannot reach 30mph on level ground. to do so on an upright bicycle with big tires requires close to 1000w, far out of reach of "most" riders. it takes about 500w to do so in the drops on a fast road bike, which is starting to get more reasonable, but again "most" people can't even ride a bike like that hard in the drops. in my last 10,000 miles of cycling i have encountered a typical person riding 28mph on level ground precisely zero times. even 20mph is quite unusual, frankly. my spirited rides average 16 or 17 mph and i pass the vast majority (95% or more) of riders on the flats and downhills. i get passed by smaller, lighter riders going uphill.

if you want to justify 28mph in the bike lane or shared path, do it with actual science/studies on the subject, not random irrelevant facts.

Here's a fact .... for over 12 years before 3-class started passing in some states, HR727 federal definition established what was a legal ebike to be sold in all 50 states and ridden legally as any other bike (it is still the sole regulatory standard for what is legal to sell and use in some states). That definition does not have an assist limit (it has a power limit above 20mph but not an assist limit). Few that comment on this forum have ever taken the time to even read this piece of legislation that passed only 1 vote short (who knows who that mamby pamby was but certainly didn't like bikes) of rull congressional consensu (that means the states spoke and felt that definition was safe enough and perview of ebike was passed from the NHTSA to the CPSC). This piece of legislation is why we are allowed to have 750W (that a motor rating not a power limit as some assume because again few understand what a motor rating really means). The guy that wrote HR727 was a PhD electrical engineer (not your average politician that doesn't even know what a watt is) ... he was told by the NHTSA that ebike perview would not be released to the CPSC if they could go over 20mph motor alone (again that clearly does not require an assist limit...just a power limit set at what power would sustain 20mph on a level surface with a 170lb rider which allows for bike difference variables).

I was the guy that petitioned the CPSC to release a statement on "Low Speed Electric Bikes" not being the same as the 3-class ebikes. Recently that commented on this and it just confused everyone but they are different products. We should all want our LSEBs programmed to be compliant to HR727 and not any of the ebike classes.

 

[Ken M]

you think 350w will achieve 30mph? lol. you simply have no clue, i'm sorry. try 23mph with road tires. i am not/was not referring to a fat tire bike, i was referring to the typical tires you find on hybrid city bikes, which are closer to MTB size than road bike size.

View attachment 154936

This is so dependent on the aerodynamics it's not rational to take just one snapshot. I will argue that most riders can achieve upwards of 30mph on a road bike for a short period of time on a flat surface.

What is it about having assist speeds above 20mph that is so frightening to some riders. I'm assuming they would never consider buying a fast car either.

 

[Ken M]

you really need to drop this tired tirade. NOBODY CARES about your conspiracy theories, whether they are rooted in fact or not.

not a single person i know who cares about bike issues works for the auto industry - again, more bullshit from you - and the vast majority support limits on the speed of e-bikes in order to allow those e-bbikes in bikes lanes and paths. these are people who have been riding bikes, advocating for bike infrastructure, and in many cases designing and building bike facilities and infrastructure for decades.

Then why did HR727 pass one vote short of congressional consensus if as you just claimed the vast majority support assist limits (it did not include an assist limit but I'm guessing you will argue it did or you'll claim that was before we understood the dangers of ebikes). Can't wait...

By the way, I 100% support speed limits on mixed use paths and side walks but when I'm in a bike lane on a street with cars that are going past me at 40+ mph I feel safer at 28mph than I do at 20mph and I'm betting that is the feeling of the majority.

 

[Ken M]

It's funny that I have engaged in this assist speed debate for some time but it seems the same people are arguing for the 20mph assist limit.

I wonder how many people buying an ebike if given the choice between a Class 1 or Class 3 (same exact bike otherwise at the same price) would pick the Class 1?