[RESOLVED] (refunded) New Vado 5.0 IGH in the shop, errors galore---updated 4-13-22

[GuruUno]

All too confusing for this Polok.....and I truly appreciate your help.
So, I must "plot" the expected ride/destination prior to configuration?
And I cannot "wing it" (get on the bike, say I'm going to do, 40 miles, plug it into smart, and then just go?)
Moving forward, I have to know where I'm going, do an analysis of the anticipated route to gather the required specifications to input, etc., etc.,?
There are times when I say, "Hey, I am in the mood to go for a ride, say 25 miles". I'm at the mercy of having to put more data in to get the expected output of "Smart Control"?
So, today's ride was:

Metrics​

• Distance
  41.3 mi
• Elevation
  + 1,501 ft / -1,491 ft
• Max Grade
  7.9%
• Avg Grade
  0.2%

The "gain" is?

Thanks Stefan.

 

[gpburdell]

Moving forward, I have to know where I'm going, do an analysis of the anticipated route to gather the required specifications to input, etc., etc.,?
There are times when I say, "Hey, I am in the mood to go for a ride, say 25 miles". I'm at the mercy of having to put more data in to get the expected output of "Smart Control"?

Yes, if you want the bike to automate the power delivery.

25 miles on flat ground needs less power than 25 miles in a hilly area.

How’s the bike supposed to know what to expect if you don’t tell it?

I’d imagine after a few rides in your area you’ll have an idea as to what sorts of average elevation gain you might expect per ten miles and thus not need to specifically plot every route.

• Elevation
  + 1,501 ft / -1,491 ft

The "gain" is?

1501 ft.

In cycling we don’t care so much about downhill stats.

 

[Nubnub]

I don’t know if this will help with you issue, but I noticed your device updates version numbers in your first post were blank. That happened to me several times with my Vado SL and I had trouble connecting to mission control. I found that my Garmin would interfere with MC if I turned it on first. Once I started turning on the bike, then turning MC on my phone and letting it connect to the bike, then I could turn on my Garmin and all would be well. It seemed like my Garmin would sometimes connect and use the Bluetooth or Ant+ channel that MC wanted, and Garmin would win the battle. As long as I let MC connect first, I never had the problem. So, could your issues have been caused by MC losing its connection with the bike?

Indirectly related I was having trouble with Blevo recognizing my hr sensor and osync remote. I usually was turning on my Garmin first since it takes awhile for it to locate gps. Tried a few times turning on bike, remote, Blevo and the garmin last. Seems to be more reliable sensor pickup for Blevo. Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

25 miles on flat ground needs less power than 25 miles in a hilly area.

It is totally right. The +1501 ft is just the elevation gain. No wonder you returned on an empty battery, Guru.
Let me describe three totally different rides:

• 104 miles with 1,930 ft of elevation gain used 1061 Wh at 41% of average assistance/max motor power
• 77.8 miles with 5,060 ft of elevation gain used 981 Wh at average assistance/max motor power of 49%
• 74 miles with 4,600 ft of elevation gain consumed 924 Wh at average assistance/max motor power of 54%.

Note: Your brand new battery is 710 Wh. My two partly degraded 604 Wh batteries now hold around 1000 Wh together only. (Perhaps I posted those data before).
As @gpburdell said, descents do not matter if you do not pedal downhill. However, riding many descents with only reasonable braking (if you are riding a loop) helps extending the range. (If you are only climbing, do not expect a really long range).

Necessary to mention the "average assistance" as listed above might mean many climbs were done in 100% Turbo, and these were compensated by the descents with no pedalling.

The bottom line is: You have to enter the "Elevation Gain" for Smart Control if you want it to work reliably. I actually hated SC in the mountains: it was giving me insufficient assistance in the beginning of the ride to enthusiastically supporting me at high level towards the end of ride when I actually didn't need any assistance in the first place...

 

[kahn]

So, did the 42-mile ride today. Very windy. I used "Smart Control".
The ride info I entered into Mission Control for the Smart Ride was 45 miles.
I said leave 10% battery.
If I am or was supposed to do more than that, educate me, please.
Bottom line, zero issues with the bike, fun ride, but at about 37 miles I had 5% remaining on the battery, and peddling went into ECO mode (out of Smart Ride).
At 10% I felt that the bike was terribly slower and at the end of the ride I was totally exhausted and suffered big time range anxiety.
Possibly next time add 10 miles to the expected length of ride and reserve 15%?
Still comprehending the features, functions, and benefits of "Smart" vs manual ECO-Sport-Turbo.

I think we have a way to go before automation really can deal with the variations in riding conditions including head wind, hills, even temperatures (cold affects battery), rider weight, pack/pannier weight, etc, etc, and so forth. I'm overweight. My pannier has too much stuff. Extra water bottle on warmer days. My Creo eked out about 52 miles and just under 3,000 feet with a RE. I get nowhere what Specialized suggested the main battery might be able to provide "distance-wise". I never expected super range. The next time I do that ride, I will have a second Range Extender and hope for the best but there will be even more weight, then.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

will have a second Range Extender and hope for the best but there will be even more weight, then.

+2.2 lb plus the weight of a small backpack

 

[GuruUno]

I'm 230 +/- 5 lbs, carry a rack bag, etc., and on the SL w/range extender I was getting 50 miles with 50% remaining (both batteries pulling at the same time, not one before the other), and I was extremely happy. Albeit I tweaked the assistance levels (on the 2X SL bike to be less the OEM), I also have got 52 miles on the older Vado 5.0 with 15% remaining, so without having the opportunity to "play" with settings on the new IGH bike yet (other than what has been discussed here) today.....I set the "Smart Control" for 45 miles, 15% remaining, 1100ft. elevation, and returned at 25 miles ridden with 50% left.
Now after a few days, I'm discovering the enviolo AUTOMATiQ Pro shifting interface is somewhat automatic, not 100%.
Example. NORMAL shifting on a derailleur bike you try to keep the "preferred pedal pace" (cadence) and your legs or a motor with Eco/Sport/Turbo keep the power to the pedals.
However, I'm coming to find that the Enviolo needs to be "managed" like a shift lever on a derailleur bike in certain situations to achieve the same "pull" and cadence of a non-automatic bike.
I liken it to the paddle shifters on current automobile steering wheels.
This should be the "next" invention by the bike industry.
RATHER THAN HITTING F1, F2, NORMAL, FAST, FASTER, FASTED, SLOW, SLOWER, SLOWEST, AND ECO, SPORT, AND TURBO much like the normal shifting process on a derailleur bike, it would be so sweet to just tap the "paddle" to achieve the results required or needed.
You have to remember, most are cranking along at 12-15-21-25 MPH, observing the screen on the "mastermind" or the iPhone/Android via the app, interpreting those stats, and attempting to learn the new/different requirements of the shiftless enviolo.
All I'm saying is it is not as automatic as expected (for me anyway), and quite a bit of involvement is required to achieve a comfortable pace while remaining focused on riding, traffic, bike, etc.
So, in conclusion, I think anyone who could figure out the paddle-shifting with enviolo as road bikes have would be a fine improvement.
As it stands now, too many F1, F2, Normal, and the graduated steps up and down, and the 3 choices of Eco, Sport, Turbo all melding together to keep the rhythm smooth and consistent.
Maybe it's me, but I found myself spinning too much, too little needing assistance on hills, and fumbling to find the sweet spot.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Well, the AutomatiQ is a new world for most of us. Take the big difference between the automatic vs. manual transmission car (you can draw a parallel easily). With a car, you expect rather a powerful engine for the automatic transmission. Still, the majority of cars driven in Europe is manual, as the Europeans typically drive smaller cars, and also believe the manual transmission gives the driver a better control. (I'm very European in my e-bike thinking, and still believe the derailleur gives me a better control).

Having said the above, I'm glad that Enviolo AutomatiQ works well for an e-bike (although it is not perfect maybe) . You said something about the control paddle. Well, it could be done on the remote. And it might be used for the Micro Tune for derailleur e-bikes as well. I'm missing the Micro Tune on my Spec e-bikes very much! Let us say, I am on a group ride. With a given assistance level set, I'm usually behind or in the front of the group. Had I Micro Tune! I could adjust the assistance during the ride to be exactly at the group speed!

 

[coffmandave]

For what it's worth, I've had that same error from OP 3 times on the Tero 5.0. Twice on a single recent 45 mile ride. Adjusting support levels got rid of the error on the heads up display but the motor wouldn't kick on until I turned it all off and on again.

 

[Gee_Whiz]

I'm 230 +/- 5 lbs, carry a rack bag, etc., and on the SL w/range extender I was getting 50 miles with 50% remaining (both batteries pulling at the same time, not one before the other), and I was extremely happy. Albeit I tweaked the assistance levels (on the 2X SL bike to be less the OEM), I also have got 52 miles on the older Vado 5.0 with 15% remaining, so without having the opportunity to "play" with settings on the new IGH bike yet (other than what has been discussed here) today.....I set the "Smart Control" for 45 miles, 15% remaining, 1100ft. elevation, and returned at 25 miles ridden with 50% left.
Now after a few days, I'm discovering the enviolo AUTOMATiQ Pro shifting interface is somewhat automatic, not 100%.
Example. NORMAL shifting on a derailleur bike you try to keep the "preferred pedal pace" (cadence) and your legs or a motor with Eco/Sport/Turbo keep the power to the pedals.
However, I'm coming to find that the Enviolo needs to be "managed" like a shift lever on a derailleur bike in certain situations to achieve the same "pull" and cadence of a non-automatic bike.
I liken it to the paddle shifters on current automobile steering wheels.
This should be the "next" invention by the bike industry.
RATHER THAN HITTING F1, F2, NORMAL, FAST, FASTER, FASTED, SLOW, SLOWER, SLOWEST, AND ECO, SPORT, AND TURBO much like the normal shifting process on a derailleur bike, it would be so sweet to just tap the "paddle" to achieve the results required or needed.
You have to remember, most are cranking along at 12-15-21-25 MPH, observing the screen on the "mastermind" or the iPhone/Android via the app, interpreting those stats, and attempting to learn the new/different requirements of the shiftless enviolo.
All I'm saying is it is not as automatic as expected (for me anyway), and quite a bit of involvement is required to achieve a comfortable pace while remaining focused on riding, traffic, bike, etc.
So, in conclusion, I think anyone who could figure out the paddle-shifting with enviolo as road bikes have would be a fine improvement.
As it stands now, too many F1, F2, Normal, and the graduated steps up and down, and the 3 choices of Eco, Sport, Turbo all melding together to keep the rhythm smooth and consistent.
Maybe it's me, but I found myself spinning too much, too little needing assistance on hills, and fumbling to find the sweet spot.

You nailed this and its the reason I'm thinking about swapping out the IGH for a different bike. The frequent spin-out in particular just doesn't feel natural when moving around at a normal, non-aggressive pace on the bike.. I pretty much keep it in the "slowest" setting and increase the cadence whenever I need the bike to get moving, which isnt ideal for urban riding. The IGH is supposed to give a more natural feel and it does to a degree but there should be a way to lock in certain cadence settings vs having it respond to pedal strokes which arent always going to be consistent, depending on what type of terrain youre on

 

[GuruUno]

Well, the AutomatiQ is a new world for most of us. Take the big difference between the automatic vs. manual transmission car (you can draw a parallel easily). With a car, you expect rather a powerful engine for the automatic transmission. Still, the majority of cars driven in Europe is manual, as the Europeans typically drive smaller cars, and also believe the manual transmission gives the driver a better control. (I'm very European in my e-bike thinking, and still believe the derailleur gives me a better control).

Having said the above, I'm glad that Enviolo AutomatiQ works well for an e-bike (although it is not perfect maybe) . You said something about the control paddle. Well, it could be done on the remote. And it might be used for the Micro Tune for derailleur e-bikes as well. I'm missing the Micro Tune on my Spec e-bikes very much! Let us say, I am on a group ride. With a given assistance level set, I'm usually behind or in the front of the group. Had I Micro Tune! I could adjust the assistance during the ride to be exactly at the group speed!

I agree (stick vs. automatic), however with the technology today of the far advanced capabilities of an automatic transmission (Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) comes to mind), the IGH ain't there yet.
I too have a Golf GTI 6-speed manual, but sometimes wish it was the DSG (automatic).
After years and years of knowing the benefits of manual transmissions, technology has far exceeded those benefits which are my comparisons to the IGH lack of.
Early adoption is sometimes painful.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Early adoption is sometimes painful.

Well, Enviolo AutomatiQ (Heavy Duty) is one of the best in the market yet. Superseded by Rohloff (but I have read enough about the trouble people experience with that IGH on their e-bikes).

 

[GuruUno]

So, more 'motor' errors today.
Did a 12.73 mi. ride with 342 ft. elevation, all done in ECO, came back with 81% remaining.
Not too sure (yet) if this IGH model will give me what my Vado 5.0 used to.
(I was used to 25-35 miles with 25-40% remaining)
Regardless of that disappointment, more disappointing is the dreaded motor error again.
(The one which the dealer told me that it WILL continue to keep happening and that I must turn the bike off and then back on to continue to ride).
The one that states, NOTE: Errors triggered on motor firmware 7.1.1 & 7.3.6 are wrongfully triggered. The 7.4.1 & 7.4.2 motor firmware provides improvements and we are currently working on an update release to solve such events. Error code 16386. If issues do not resolve, please contact your retailer.
The retailer, last week, did the update(s).
My concern, moving forward, how long for a resolution, what next, and should I be proactive and do what? "Rider I-Don't-Care" does not reply to inquiries, calls, or e-mails, the dealer tells me to turn it off and turn it on and that's it.

 

[gpburdell]

So, more 'motor' errors today.
[...]
My concern, moving forward, how long for a resolution, what next, and should I be proactive and do what? "Rider I-Don't-Care" does not reply to inquiries, calls, or e-mails, the dealer tells me to turn it off and turn it on and that's it.

Not to be a Negative Ned, but having read your posts since you got the bikes, if it were me I'd be seriously considering starting a return.

 

[Onimaru]

Wife, daughter, and I went out today. Here’s our ride summary. No errors for either of us today.

 

[GuruUno]

Not to be a Negative Ned, but having read your posts since you got the bikes, if it were me I'd be seriously considering starting a return.

I am attempting to communicate that (return), but get a zero reply from "Rider I-Don't Care" as well as LBS manager.
I'll again reach out to the LBS to see if/what???

 

[GuruUno]

Wife, daughter, and I went out today. Here’s our ride summary. No errors for either of us today. View attachment 119661

Maybe I got the lemon?

 

[Onimaru]

Maybe I got the lemon?

I’ve had a few errors. But nothing to your degree. You may have a lemon.

 

[Joshelley]

So far I have had no errors like GuruUno, thank goodness!!! I have about 130 miles on my IGH so far. It has been on lots of hills. After recalibrating it is performing much better. It now out performs my Vado 3 by a little on long steep hills and a lot on short steep hills. Most of my rides have been about 20 miles, eco and sport on flat and small incline, and turbo on hills. I usually have about 68% battery remaining at the end of the ride. I think I can get a little over 50 miles on a full charge, the way I ride the bike. I am learning to love the automatic aspect of the bike, especially after stops and on short steep hills. I do spend a lot of time switching between eco/sport/turbo and playing with the cadence speeds. I also am most comfortable at “slow” or “slower” cadence, especially riding with other people. However, I am now riding with a faster cadence with the IGH than I did with the Vado 3….I guess I like to keep the bar on MasterMind in the green. My motor software is 7.4.2.

 

[gpburdell]

I am attempting to communicate that (return), but get a zero reply from "Rider I-Don't Care" as well as LBS manager.
I'll again reach out to the LBS to see if/what???

With the understanding that I am speaking from a position of having no experience in doing such things, my suggestions are to email and call, logging each of those attempts. Same with your contacts with the LBS manager.

The key is documenting your attempt to do the return within the allotted timeframe..

That would help provide a basis for a credit card charge dispute should you make no headway. (I’m presuming you bought this using a credit card)