Specialized Vado 4.0 - Beware

[Allan47.7339]

Responded there, but as a quick summary here: issue mentioned there is not caused by IGH or belt drive, it is more a complain about slow gears switching on R&M with electronic shifter for Rohloff. And I can personally confirm, that is is slow after test riding Homage earlier this year.

I would agree you have to separate the electric shifting issues from the IGH hub and belt. My touring bike has a Rohloff with a drop bar CoMotion shifter. I've never had any trouble quickly shifting multiple gears when there was a sudden change in pitch. If I have a hilly ride and I'm not using an e-bike it's the one I take because of the gearing. My wrist will get very tired of shifting on a century. I've never tried an electric shift version of the Rohloff but I can imagine it is much slower to shift than either a manual shift or a deraillieur with Di2/SRAM. Another issue is some riders don't seem to anticipate their gear changes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Some people wank with the belt drive/IGH while other simply actively ride their e-bikes.
There is no MTB or road/gravel bike with belt drive/IGH. I wonder why.

 

[mclewis1]

Some people wank with the belt drive/IGH while other simply actively ride their e-bikes.
There is no MTB or road/gravel bike with belt drive/IGH. I wonder why.

a) cost - A belt drive/IGH setup is more expensive than a large number of chain/derailleur/cogset packages. Plus the frame design needed to support the belt drive setup is more expensive. So a large amount of the mid to lower end of bike industry is priced out of current belt/IGH setups.
b) performance - Belt drives right off mean no multiple front chainrings which limits overall gear range. IGHs also can't match the range of the current 12 speed 11-52 cogsets. So where you need gear range (very low speed for MTBs, wide range for road/gravel bikes) the belt drive/IGH currently can't meet the requirements.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So a large amount of the mid to lower end of bike industry is priced out of current belt/IGH setups.

Are we talking road e-bikes more expensive than $10,000 or e-MTBs that cost over $8,000?

Belt drive/IGH is a heavy solution and as such is eliminated from road cycling applications. MTB: weight, vulnerability to objects that might jam the belt (e.g. twigs), complication with field repair, low efficiency, too low gear range.

Belt drive/IGH is for the world of SUV e-bikes or for expensive city e-bikes. For people who don't want to stain their hands, as to say.

 

[ava1ar]

IGHs also can't match the range of the current 12 speed 11-52 cogsets.

This is not true, 11-52 is 472% range, which is superseeded by Rohloff 500/14 (563%) and Kindernay XIV (543%). However both are very expensive (>€1000).

I think the main reason they are not that popular for MTBs and road/gravel bikes, since the low-maintenance benefit is not that important there. These are not the bikes which people use to commute every day, often in bad weather, but rather the sport/relax machines people use from time to time. Also, for expensive road/gravel bikes weight means a lot, where IGH is still not competitive with high-end derailleur.

 

[ava1ar]

low efficiency, too low gear range

These are myths, which I can't stop to debunk. The efficiency difference between IGH and derailleur is minimal and IGH easily became more efficient as derailleur wears out or get contaminated. Gear range - see above, best IGHs are better than 11-52. Which cassette you use right now? I bet both Rohloff 500/14 and Kindernay XIV have wider gears range.

For people who don't want to stain their hands

For people who don't want to stain their hands all the time, since they ride a lot and in any weather.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

often in bad weather

Try this with your Gazelle.

"Bad weather".

"Ride a lot".

Shimano 10-51t cassette has 510% gear range.

 

[ava1ar]

Try this with your Gazelle.

I don't have anything like this where I live (NYC suburbs), however I don't see any problem riding here (even with 1.75" narrow tires). However I often ride in the rain (and heavy rain) and after I do this, only thing I need to do to service my bike is to wipe the dirt spots from the frame and nothing in relation to belt. What kind of service you have to do with your chain after riding in a rain? Don't say nothing - I won't believe this.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Now, you show me your Strava stats, ava1ar. Distance ridden in 2021, elevation gain, breakdown by month.

Don't say anything - I know you do not record your rides.

 

[ava1ar]

I know you do not record your rides.

I start recording only when I got C380+ with SmartphoneHub (about a month ago) and I have around 100+ miles on odometer so far. Also, distance ridden is nothing to do with what what we are discussing - the benefits of the belt drive for the frequent rider. I am not saying belt drive is ultimately better, I am just saying it is better for the average consumer, who want to ride more and service bike less. Can we agree on this and just move on?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am just saying it is better for the average consumer, who want to ride more and service bike less. Can we agree on this and just move on?

It is good for a city rider. I can agree on this.

 

[mschwett]

belt and quality IGH is ideal for the absolute ultimate reliability and least maintenance in dirty, bouncy, rough riding. a good friend rode his purpose built bike with rohloff and gates belt more or less from California to the end of South America, and back, with no drivetrain maintenance other than replacing the belt once. this is on road, off road, in the most extreme conditions and terrain, an order of magnitude harder than anything I’d ride… but if I did it, I wouldn’t do it with an exposed chain, cogs, and fragile derailleur.

at the other extreme, IGH and belt are fantastic for city riding, no grease, no adjustments, shifting while stopped, etc.

but they’re very heavy, expensive, less customizable, many can’t be shifted under load, perhaps have a bit more drag depending on who you ask….

 

[GuruUno]

It sure would be extremely advantageous to be able to test ride one of the new IGH models before plunking down over $5k and adding it to the stable.
Just as an FYI, I took the Turbo Vado 5.0 out today after not riding it since August 2nd when I got the new Vado SL 5.0 (which now has almost 900 miles) and WOW, it was like driving a cushy Mercedes Benz what a world of difference. Now I can really feel the workout the SL gives, the Turbo Vado has so much assistance (4x) compared to the 2x of the SL I actually kind of miss it.
With that comparison, I'm of the belief the new 2022 IGH Vado are going to be in the 50-55 lb. range and therefore have a similar ride as the Vado 5 I have (2021). It sure would be nice to have an SL weight bike with 4x power and a long-range battery....that would be the best of all worlds.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It sure would be extremely advantageous to be able to test ride one of the new IGH models before plunking down over $5k and adding it to the stable.
Just as an FYI, I took the Turbo Vado 5.0 out today after not riding it since August 2nd when I got the new Vado SL 5.0 (which now has almost 900 miles) and WOW, it was like driving a cushy Mercedes Benz what a world of difference. Now I can really feel the workout the SL gives, the Turbo Vado has so much assistance (4x) compared to the 2x of the SL I actually kind of miss it.
With that comparison, I'm of the belief the new 2022 IGH Vado are going to be in the 50-55 lb. range and therefore have a similar ride as the Vado 5 I have (2021). It sure would be nice to have an SL weight bike with 4x power and a long-range battery....that would be the best of all worlds.

I'm getting a similar sensation when I swap my e-bikes. It feels the big Vado gives me no workout whatsoever! Also, I can track my leg power on both e-bikes with my new Wahoo GPS computer (along with other parameters). It is funny to watch how the SL forces me to input more power into the cranks while my legs work very little on the full power Vado!

4x power and bigger battery? It is not lightweight. If it were, the competitors would have already built such an e-bike.

 

[mclewis1]

This is not true, 11-52 is 472% range, which is superseeded by Rohloff 500/14 (563%) and Kindernay XIV (543%). However both are very expensive (>€1000).

Good point, but the last time I checked I didn't think that either of those IGHs were generally available to me (I had seen them both more as "brochure ware" which may have been a bit harsh) ... however that might also have been more of a supply chain and pricing issue, and an ebike suitability concern. My statement should probably be more like "Popular or generally available IGHs also can't currently match the range of the 12 speed 11-52 cogsets."

No question the currently most popular use cases for belt drive/IGH packages are where high reliability and low or no touch maintenance is highly prized (higher end urban use, commuting, etc.). My responses above were the general ones to Stephan's broad question. There are many many reasons both pro and con for belt drive/IGH setups that can be debated for everyone's specific needs and desires.

I love the technology and I'd be a big proponent and user of a belt drive/IGH setup if I could implement one on an existing bike at a reasonable (to me) price point.

 

[mschwett]

4x power and bigger battery? It is not lightweight. If it were, the competitors would have already built such an e-bike.

it would actually be very interesting to build such a bike - take a 15lb carbon fiber road bike, add a “lightweight” aftermarket mid drive like the bafang M600, and you’d have a <30lb bike with 90+NM motor torque. i expect it would be more of a science project than a well balanced, ridable bike like specialized makes, but it would be fun.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

like the bafang M600

What's the weight? Have you also considered the weight of the bigger battery?
Any consideration of structural strength? mschwett, you're free to mod your Aethos. I don't think you would.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

P.S. A 160 Wh battery weights 2.4 lb. A 600 Wh battery is 7.7 lbs. Add a motor, controller, cabling. Thicker downtube.

 

[mschwett]

oh, i certainly wouldn’t do it! but it would be *interesting*

at 3.6kg for a 500wh battery, and 3.7kg for that 95nM motor, the e-system would weigh as much as the entire “donor bike.” very impractical and probably would handle very strangely.

a more interesting thought experiment would be a practical creo/vado SL killer, start with that same 14lb donor bike but use a small motor like the m800 and a small battery, even a range extender size battery, for a +/- 8lb assist system. now we’re taking about a 22lb city/road e-bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As I said: If that were doable, Trek would have already announced that
Yet nobody sane would put a Bafang into a premium e-bike